Evo3 16g Boost Creep-Solved?

[Mr Peepers]

^Yes very true. BUT, the only reason I extended the WGA housing itself was to allow for a broader range of boost pressures(in effect spring tensions). With the ability to adjust the WGA arm length you can have the exact same preload as stock, but STILL have 1/4" articulation more than stock because the factory "stops" are trimmed.

Edit: tonight I will be shortening the MWGA arm by about 1/4". When I first welded it without testing, I left it a little longer just in case, but it's affecting the amount of preload possible with such a short threaded screw. Maybe more if I can find a longer SS screw to weld on with the same threads. Otherwise it's ready to be shipped.

Apeximprt2nr: please send your address in a PM so I can get it shipped out by Monday.

p.s. My Birthday is this Sunday!

 

[dsm-onster]

Yea w/ the 'stop' trimmed back, you can pull farther on the wastegate arm and compress the spring in the actuator more than stock when fully extented. This means the arm extends farther. I got it when I read it yesterday, then lost it .

BTW, I have my two WGAs in a box to be shipped . I want to experiment and log this. I think I can get a way w/ not using a MBC at all and still raise the boost to enough to wind out this small 16g to its max. I also think you would be interested in that garrett actuator. . . Verify this of course, but it definately feels like it as more spring tension and more throw. Adding a MHI actuator rod end and mounting bracket would probably do similar to modding the MHI unit as you have.

 

[JWoodley]

For what its worth, I've got a 14B WGA sitting in a box with whats left of a blown 14B. If you can put it to good use let me know. I've read through this thread several times and each time I pick up on something I previously missed. I'd be willing to bet this will eventually become a sticky.

Great job guys! Peepers, you're the man.

 

[Mr Peepers]

For what its worth, I've got a 14B WGA sitting in a box with whats left of a blown 14B. If you can put it to good use let me know. I've read through this thread several times and each time I pick up on something I previously missed. I'd be willing to bet this will eventually become a sticky.

Great job guys! Peepers, you're the man.

Haha, thanks! I'm sure I can get some use out of it if you don't need it, but only if I pay you back for shipping If you have boost creep problems with your replacement turbo, I think I know of a way to repay you for your kindness

It is VERY appreciated

 

[kenamond]

Happy Birthday Peepers!!

It's great to see someone finally doing this!

If the T25 actuator has a longer throw, I wonder how hard it would be to make an adapter bracket to bolt that actuator up to a different turbo. I only have my stock T25 and my FPB28 which use the same WGA.

Do you want a T25 WGA to see if there's a way to adapt it to different turbos? Maybe someone has already offered, but I can't remember all the models offered thus far.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Good work Peepers! DANM good work!

....and thanks

 

[NewTurboTuner]

so if the 14b and 16g WG opens good enough ....can you just switch out the WG from those turbos, and put it on the EVOIII16g to make it open more?

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Let me know if he never responded, Ive resorted to hooking up my line directly to the wastegate as it will hold perfectly about 10-12 psi and at about 5000rpm just starts creeping to high hell on my 16g. So let me know if you need another candidate, and definitely subsricing to see if this works, ive got an external setup im debating putting on right now.

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

ive got an external setup im debating putting on right now.

Hi,

If you got an external wastegate setup already, then why not just put that on?

Bill

 

[Mr Peepers]

Happy Birthday Peepers!!

It's great to see someone finally doing this!

If the T25 actuator has a longer throw, I wonder how hard it would be to make an adapter bracket to bolt that actuator up to a different turbo. I only have my stock T25 and my FPB28 which use the same WGA.

Do you want a T25 WGA to see if there's a way to adapt it to different turbos? Maybe someone has already offered, but I can't remember all the models offered thus far.

Thanks for the Bday wishes!
I got to mess with a t25 actuator a bit and I would only have to extend the actuator housing about 1/4" to 3/8" to get the FULL range of motion(90*) from the wastegate flapper. The only thing I didn't like was the short spring and small diaphragm(although it allows for more travel). I would be glad to see which one turns out to be the better candidate. I do not have a t25 actuator to test, but shoot me a PM and I can figure something out p.s. I have an extra tdo5h WGA bracket

so if the 14b and 16g WG opens good enough ....can you just switch out the WG from those turbos, and put it on the EVOIII16g to make it open more?

Yes, the WGA from 14b, 16g, and e3 16g are interchangeable. Although all the stock ones I've seen have the exact same throw, and are identical besides the springs.

Let me know if he never responded, Ive resorted to hooking up my line directly to the wastegate as it will hold perfectly about 10-12 psi and at about 5000rpm just starts creeping to high hell on my 16g. So let me know if you need another candidate, and definitely subsricing to see if this works, ive got an external setup im debating putting on right now.

The worse the creep the better Like I said, I only ask for a quick review on this thread, good or bad. He was supposed to send his out Saturday while I ship mine to him Monday but I have not been able to get a hold of him... The sooner this is tested the better, I am VERY curious myself PM me and I can arrange something, I don't have another MWGA at the moment.

Edit: If you wanted to see if this fixes your creep issues without going external, I'd be glad to help. Can I ask why you're debating it?

 

[dsm-onster]

Hey, I sent off my 14B wga I've been using for my 16g and a garrett t3 wga. You should get it by the end of the week.

I couldn't help but test my stock 14b actuator before it left my hands. I've not run it very mcuh at lower boost . I DO have 1000cc injectors, plenty of pump, and WI w/ a big ebay fmic. Anyway, I really paid attention to my boost levels instead of my kncok during a good hard pull. It's hard to do around here. But I turned myself in on a back country road and blasted my current setup w/ no light tree, or hay at the end of my run. and I infact float up to 20-21 psi in 3rd gear when I'm set at 15 psi. I base my 15 psi setting at 5000 rpms. It jumps to 15 psi and holds it to that point then SLOWLY raises to 20 by 7K. So I've been wrong about my own setup for some time now. I'll experiment w/ this and log all my results. Considering that I have many typical DSMer upgrades at this point, I should be able to help out here.

I think this will cure it. The flapper can be looked at like any other valve. Including a head valve. Raise the lift, and what happens? Yea, . . . more flow is inevitable. An o2 mounted wastegate forces the gases to make a sharp 90* turn before reaching lower pressures. A flapper that can open like a door, can possibly open enough to cause minimal turbulance and minimal blockage. No sharp 90* bend. The oem o2 housings have a far less severe bend in wastegated flow.

All is speculation but that's what we're all about here . I hope it works. If it does then Kudos. If not, then we're trying here. It may help enough w/ porting to yield optimum resuls w/ out going to a larger flapper. This would help the backyard builder cure his problem w/out completly altering his turbo exhaust setup. . .

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Thanks for the Bday wishes!
I got to mess with a t25 actuator a bit and I would only have to extend the actuator housing about 1/4" to 3/8" to get the FULL range of motion(90*) from the wastegate flapper. The only thing I didn't like was the short spring and small diaphragm(although it allows for more travel). I would be glad to see which one turns out to be the better candidate. I do not have a t25 actuator to test, but shoot me a PM and I can figure something out p.s. I have an extra tdo5h WGA bracket



Yes, the WGA from 14b, 16g, and e3 16g are interchangeable. Although all the stock ones I've seen have the exact same throw, and are identical besides the springs.



The worse the creep the better Like I said, I only ask for a quick review on this thread, good or bad. He was supposed to send his out Saturday while I ship mine to him Monday but I have not been able to get a hold of him... The sooner this is tested the better, I am VERY curious myself PM me and I can arrange something, I don't have another MWGA at the moment.

Edit: If you wanted to see if this fixes your creep issues without going external, I'd be glad to help. Can I ask why you're debating it?

I am debating because I could sell it and put it into other things that would be more beneficial, also its a tial 40 mm wastegate o2 housing setup and trying to fit it in there looks like its gonna take some work and I will have to get rid of my fan, not a good idea.

 

[Mr Peepers]

I am debating because I could sell it and put it into other things that would be more beneficial, also its a tial 40 mm wastegate o2 housing setup and trying to fit it in there looks like its gonna take some work and I will have to get rid of my fan, not a good idea.

If this works then I completely see your point. I don't want to spend $xxx on an external setup if there is a way to improve what I've got. I've got some ideas of where the money saved will go

 

[oldman]

Either way, using an external wastegate for boost creep is a complete waste of money anyway, it should be used for running higher boost levels when volume and holding the internal flapper shut become an issue.

 

[Mr Peepers]

The MWGA has been dropped off at the post office around 5:00 PM today. One thing I changed before it shipped off was adding more threads for more adjustability.

Apeximprt2ner:
When you install it, screw/adjust it just so the flapper is fully closed, then screw it in one more thread than that. Should be a good starting point with about stock preload, then go from there. See if it holds wastegate pressure all the way to redline, WOT high rpm pulls in 3rd, progressively up the boost etc. Try everything you know to induce creep
Also curious, did you do any porting?

Also, if anyone has a spare 2g BOV, I would be interested in the diaphragm.

 

[Mr Peepers]

Either way, using an external wastegate for boost creep is a complete waste of money anyway, it should be used for running higher boost levels when volume and holding the internal flapper shut become an issue.

I agree that going external for a small turbo such as a 16g is a waste of money.

I also agree on the flapper not being the only factor. A while back I ran my 14b with the WGA arm unattached(full 3" exhaust being the, no porting whatsoever at the time). The gauge popped up to ~0 psi very uneventfully and stayed until about 5.5k or so, then started slowly rising to maybe 5 psi by redline. Keep in mind, the flapper was allowed to travel its full range of motion(more or less) yet still had some creep to build 5 psi. As you've said before, oldman, the geometry of the WG hole is most likely the culprit. Other things such as the o2 housing are also to blame.
I'm not saying this is the end all to creep in internal gates, but in theory can only compliment correct porting.

Oh yeah, and I might have a trick up my sleeve regarding holding the flapper shut depending on the psi being run May not be feasible to do for other people, but I can't wait to mess around with it on my setup

 

[oldman]

I agree that going external for a small turbo such as a 16g is a waste of money.

I also agree on the flapper not being the only factor. A while back I ran my 14b with the WGA arm unattached(full 3" exhaust being the, no porting whatsoever at the time). The gauge popped up to ~0 psi very uneventfully and stayed until about 5.5k or so, then started slowly rising to maybe 5 psi by redline. Keep in mind, the flapper was allowed to travel its full range of motion(more or less) yet still had some creep to build 5 psi. As you've said before, oldman, the geometry of the WG hole is most likely the culprit. Other things such as the o2 housing are also to blame.
I'm not saying this is the end all to creep in internal gates, but in theory can only compliment correct porting.

Oh yeah, and I might have a trick up my sleeve regarding holding the flapper shut depending on the psi being run May not be feasible to do for other people, but I can't wait to mess around with it on my setup

I did the same test years back when my 16g was creeping to 23+psi. Prior to porting, I was able to build 7psi by redline with the actuator disconnected, after porting, barely 1psi. Let's wait and see how effective this method is without porting, it would save me a lot of time trying to convince people to port their EVO3's!!

 

[Mr Peepers]

Quick note: The nipple on the 16g actuator had a much smaller inner diameter than the 14b's. I used the diaphragm from a 16g and the mount from a 14b, so if the MWGA I sent you, Apeximprt2ner, has some boost spike compared to your 14b actuator, that *might* be why.

If this works I'll make enough off it to go external!!!

I'm kidding of course, you have to laugh at the irony

 

[CanadianTSi]

A properly setup internal gate will hold boost rock solid stable, here's a clip from a log of my car.

 

[Mr Peepers]

The WGA I sent Monday still hasn't gotten to Apeximprt2ner, maybe tomorrow

But, I did get dsm-onster's WGA done tonight. I tried some new things on it and now it opens the flapper all the way without breaking a sweat, and has a LOT of adjustabilty. About an inch

I had to cut it open again after I welded since the spring was a little off center in the cup. The welds got a little ugly after that but it's all sealed up and lesson learned. Didn't grind the welds down, but it gets the job done

 

[JusMX141]

That's a hell of a creation, Peepers! Kudos to your dedictation. I figured there was an alternative to get that actuator to open more, but I never thought it would take so much creativity to build.

I've always laughed at the threads people post where they grind the hell out of their exhaust housings so that the flapper can "open further to eliminate boost creep." Hasn't any of them even tried to blow some air into the actuator to see how far the flapper actually opens?

 

[dsm-onster]

I think it looks fine! It goes w/ my welded up intake pipe. My custom welded intercoolerpiping and BOV flange. And all the other little welds here and there .

The adjustability is just what I'm looking for. I'll call you today since you said you have the time. I do now and we can chat.

When I get it I'll take a couple of runs right away. To see if it hs made a difference. I have a 2g 02 housing, 3 inch exhaust w/ a test pipe, little nothing of a muffler, and a resonator tip.

 

[Mr Peepers]

Apeximprt2ner got it, and tested it. He is at work right now, but all I have to say is this:

It held 15 psi to redline.

 

[Apeximprt2nr]

Hey guys, well not only does the WGA look awesome and welds being very clean, but it works great!
I was able to very easily adjust the arm length via the screw and put it on my car in less than 5 mins. Spool is smack dab at 3k, if not sooner. I boosted 15 psi all the way to 7,100 RPM's. It holds really well.

I havn'et run WG pressure yet without the MBC because I need a hose long enough to run from the WGA to the nipple in my LICP. I should be able to get that tomorrow and let you know how that goes.

I also ran 19 psi tonight and it dropped down to 15 psi by redline. I may have to adjust the WGA a tad tighter, and if that doens't work, then its my turbo.

I will keep you guys updated. Again Matt, awesome work, thanks!

 

[Mr Peepers]

Hey guys, well not only does the WGA look awesome and welds being very clean, but it works great!
I was able to very easily adjust the arm length via the screw and put it on my car in less than 5 mins. Spool is smack dab at 3k, if not sooner. I boosted 15 psi all the way to 7,100 RPM's. It holds really well.

I havn'et run WG pressure yet without the MBC because I need a hose long enough to run from the WGA to the nipple in my LICP. I should be able to get that tomorrow and let you know how that goes.

I also ran 19 psi tonight and it dropped down to 15 psi by redline. I may have to adjust the WGA a tad tighter, and if that doens't work, then its my turbo.

I will keep you guys updated. Again Matt, awesome work, thanks!

The way I told you to install it was the loosest setting possible, you can adjust it plenty more, giving you more preload than stock but still more travel. Find a happy medium, and enjoy the adjustability You said you have bad boost leaks, that could be part of the problem too, many variables yet. Can't wait to see how it stacks up against WG pressure

EDIT: The spring is from an EvoIII 16g WGA, results may slightly vary from your original 14b WGA.