evo 3 16g vs new fp 18g

[BaileyBoy]

Perfect, Thank you

Since I have an evoIII 16g, I can greatly assure you that A.) You will not make 400whp on a 2.0L at only 20psi (pumpgas) regardless of turbo unless you rev it to 9k. B.) A EvoIII16g has enough flow in it to run about 44 lb/min maxed out (basically wiring shut the wastegate). Thats about 400whp.

Reality is....on pump gas you should be able to get 350whp all day long out of a evoIII 16g (thats about 40lb/min). On pump gas an 18g will not yield any significant gains over a evoIII16g as they use the same inefficient compressor housing. Even below 23psi a 20g in the tdo6 housing will not net too much bigger gains over anyone of these turbos(20whp tops). However, after 23psi (race gas territory) on your typical setup you will start to see differences once each turbo maxes out.

E316g -400whp
18g - 425whp
20g -450whp

 

[pickens]

I'm sorry, but 450whp must be on an extremely happy dyno w/ an evoIII. Did you witness the dyno runs? 450whp (500 crank hp) is low 11 sec territory on a full weight car. Maybe they had nitrous and didn't say anything??

The pure physics of size of the turbo will not allow it to get anywhere near 500 crank hp. That's 50 lb/min!!!! As far as impossible goes, that's it for an evoIII 16g.

No way! No how! Sorry to burst your bubble. Did I say its impossible to flow 50 lb/min on a 16g yet? If not, its impossible.

 

[GVR4592]

I'm sorry, but 450whp must be on an extremely happy dyno w/ an evoIII. Did you witness the dyno runs? 450whp (500 crank hp) is low 11 sec territory on a full weight car. Maybe they had nitrous and didn't say anything??

The pure physics of size of the turbo will not allow it to get anywhere near 500 crank hp. That's 50 lb/min!!!! As far as impossible goes, that's it for an evoIII 16g.

No way! No how! Sorry to burst your bubble. Did I say its impossible to flow 50 lb/min on a 16g yet? If not, its impossible.

Sure the dyno numbers might not be 100% accurate, but they never really are. Out of the 3 cars, two of them are parted out and one I believe was sold, but is still racing. It was Curt Browns old car. You're not bursting my bubble, if I listened to every internet keyboard jockey about what's "impossible" I would think running 10's or 9's on a 16g was impossible too.

Untitled

 

[pickens]

I'm probably not your typical internet jockey here. I assure you that 10's is not impossible if the right weight is there, but 500 crank hp out of a 16g is. I can run 10's naturally aspirated with a lightweight chassis.

I usually don't post unless I see too much misinformation getting thrown around, and in this case I don't want anyone to believe they can get an evoIII 16g to a true 450whp.

 

[dsm-onster]

This is why I actually prefer a massflow log including intake temperature and elevation to a dyno pull. A turbo can yield a certain massflow at a certain rpm. It's up to the user to convert that to hp.

The rough estimate of lb/min flow (10.5 hp pe lb/min) assuming 30hp drivetrain loss puts massflow at 46lbs/min. Percenatage drivetrain loss goes down as whp goes up. Since the mass of the drivetrain remains the same, it takes the same amount of power to accelerate those components at 50 hp or 500 hp.

Still, 46lbs/min is beyond my faith, too. I'd have to see a log .

 

[Black_Bullet]

I know of 3 people that made 450whp on the Evo3, one of them was on pumpgas, one was E-85 and the other was leaded race gas.

Yea this is a bit hard to believe... Were they spraying?
I didnt think anyone would even get much past 350 awhp on pump gas with a evo3,
much less even 400 awhp on race gas, 450 whp on pump gas sounds farfeitched....

 

[BaileyBoy]

^^ oh boy here it comes again..... all the guys who heard from a friend of a friend of a buddy who talked to a guy on a forum once who knew someone who apparently made 400 something horse on a evo316g are gona defend this claim alllll over again......

 

[LaserAWD]

I didn't hear it from a friend of a friend of a buddy. I talked directly to Curt Brown about it and talked to him in person at the shootout about his old car running on E85.

Also every calculator I've done on my cars 1/4 mile shows I was making over 410hp on my evo16g on race gas. I was also making over 360 on pump gas.

Just because some people don't like to push turbo's to the limit doesn't mean that it can't be done. I remember back in '99 when I ran a 12.3 @ 110 on a 14b in a full weight car with stock: cams, balance shafts, head, valves, etc, nobody would believe that either but now people run low 12's on a 14b no problem.

 

[dsm-onster]

I didn't hear it from a friend of a friend of a buddy. I talked directly to Curt Brown about it and talked to him in person at the shootout about his old car running on E85.

Also every calculator I've done on my cars 1/4 mile shows I was making over 410hp on my evo16g on race gas. I was also making over 360 on pump gas.

Just because some people don't like to push turbo's to the limit doesn't mean that it can't be done. I remember back in '99 when I ran a 12.3 @ 110 on a 14b in a full weight car with stock: cams, balance shafts, head, valves, etc, nobody would believe that either but now people run low 12's on a 14b no problem.

400ish is not 450ish. Pushing you're turbo is not sending it out of compressor map of the next size up turbo

 

[LaserAWD]

400ish is not 450ish. Pushing you're turbo is not sending it out of compressor map of the next size up turbo

I was responding to BaileyBoy with that last post. He said you couldn't get 400hp. I got 410+hp on a crappy VPC/SAFC combo. I'm sure there was more to be had with DSMLink or an AEM were you could adjust timing.

 

[BaileyBoy]

I guess i was just following the thread where everyone was talking about pump gas making 4-450 horse... I dont think the issue was dealing with race gas or the go fast juice. And all the raw flow data I have been provided with or found, shows we just cant doooo 450 horse on'a stock block etc. Butttt!! There could be info out there that shows its possible and therfore would change my mind, but I have yet to see any. Even a dyno sheet...although that brings us back to the problem of how well it was calibrated....

 

[pickens]

To clarify you have not actually dynoed, you got an estimated 410hp via bench dynoing.

 

[RipperXX]

So your saying you do not think it can be done without stroking the engine?



I would have to agree, I don't think it is realistic at all that even with C16 anyone will pull over 420 out of a 2.0L block with sub 8k redline.

 

[LaserAWD]

To clarify you have not actually dynoed, you got an estimated 410hp via bench dynoing.

True, but I posted a dyno sheet above of damn near 400hp on pump gas on Curt's car and for some reason that's not good enough for anyone.

 

[LaserAWD]

I guess i was just following the thread where everyone was talking about pump gas making 4-450 horse... I dont think the issue was dealing with race gas or the go fast juice. And all the raw flow data I have been provided with or found, shows we just cant doooo 450 horse on'a stock block etc. Butttt!! There could be info out there that shows its possible and therfore would change my mind, but I have yet to see any. Even a dyno sheet...although that brings us back to the problem of how well it was calibrated....

When you say stock block what do you mean? Balance shafts still in the motor? Stock compression? Or just the fact that it's a 2.0L and not a stroker?

Your right, the dyno could have been calibrated wrong. That would make it just as likely for it to read low instead of high. So maybe all those dyno readings are low and everyones making 30hp more than what the dyno shows.

Having the dyno calibrated incorrectly isn't going to automatically lead to higher power numbers. The equation can be just as easily be calculated wrong and show low numbers.

 

[Boo5t_Addict]

Whether you stroke the motor, or rev higher, the compressor of the turbo has a limit of flow. That's what makes this all so unrealistic. What's being discussed here, is somehow being able to surpass the physical limits of the turbo. I'm just reading this thread out of simple curiosity, but it has quickly become an argument of opinion, rather than fact. I'd be interested to see some kind of data proving that an evo316g turbo can flow enough air to meet these power goals. I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just a science major, and would like to see some scientific data.

 

[BaileyBoy]

Whether you stroke the motor, or rev higher, the compressor of the turbo has a limit of flow. That's what makes this all so unrealistic. What's being discussed here, is somehow being able to surpass the physical limits of the turbo. I'm just reading this thread out of simple curiosity, but it has quickly become an argument of opinion, rather than fact. I'd be interested to see some kind of data proving that an evo316g turbo can flow enough air to meet these power goals. I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just a science major, and would like to see some scientific data.

I guess i was just following the thread where everyone was talking about pump gas making 4-450 horse... I dont think the issue was dealing with race gas or the go fast juice. And all the raw flow data I have been provided with or found, shows we just cant doooo 450 horse on'a stock block etc. Butttt!! There could be info out there that shows its possible and therfore would change my mind, but I have yet to see any. Even a dyno sheet...although that brings us back to the problem of how well it was calibrated....

Your words are my thoughts exactly!

 

[dsm-onster]

True, but I posted a dyno sheet above of damn near 400hp on pump gas on Curt's car and for some reason that's not good enough for anyone.

Many a shop has padded dyno run for the customer! Why would they sell a low number? I'm not saying that it happened in this case. I'm just saying that there is far more likelihood for a high number vs. a low.

I AM saying that there is no way an evo3 16g can flow 47 lbs/min. Which is close to what 450hp demands. No one has a log of that.

 

[daren_p]

I AM saying that there is no way an evo3 16g can flow 47 lbs/min. Which is close to what 450hp demands. No one has a log of that.

What are you talking about Matt, I have seen plenty evoIII logs with guys flowing 47 lb/min or even more (though their MAFT's may have been slightly uncalibrated )

 

[dsm-onster]

What are you talking about Matt, I have seen plenty evoIII logs with guys flowing 47 lb/min or even more (though their MAFT's may have been slightly uncalibrated )

ASSuming an accurate flow meter . I've seen a small 16g flow 43 lbs/min. I have the very turbo on my car now! Man, she would hickup and shoot flames out the tailpipe! Guys were so impressed by the amount of roadside brush I would burn!

 

[Black_Bullet]

So your saying you do not think it can be done without stroking the engine?



I would have to agree, I don't think it is realistic at all that even with C16 anyone will pull over 420 out of a 2.0L block with sub 8k redline.

None of this matters, i dont understand why people think that revving higher or stroking their motor will change the max potiential of air a turbo can flow...

The only way to capitalize on putting down as much power to the wheels from the air flow already available would be higher octane and extremely aggressive tuning to take more mechanical advantage of the airflow. ( I.E. lean afrs, super high timing advance, high compression .)

 

[danl]

If you guys spend half the time wrenching on your cars as you did making posts on the internet you'd be fast.

 

[dsm-onster]

I'm fast enough. We're not talking track times. We're talking about compressor/turbine potential. What do you have to contribute ?

 

[BaileyBoy]

If you guys spend half the time wrenching on your cars as you did making posts on the internet you'd be fast.

great post......real beneficial.....WTF

Besides... I dont like wrenching in the 9 degree windchill

 

[JusMX141]

If you guys spend half the time wrenching on your cars as you did making posts on the internet you'd be fast.

Perhaps the reason we have moderators and/or wisemen with 14-second cars?