evo 3 16g vs new fp 18g

[pickens]

. That was waaay too funny!

So back on topic. Does anyone have some dyno sheets or track times with the 18G (in particular w/ the new turbine wheel FP sells with them). It seems like no has real first hand experience.

 

[BaileyBoy]

i'll have time slips and video come this spring....as for now tho nothing

 

[gdmbat85]

Ok, I'm sick of hearing all this bull. One thing I've come to realize is that people love to lie about their car. The other week i was at a meet talking to another DSM'er and he told me that he was running 300hp and 400lb/ft torque on the stock T-25. Ontop of that, he wasn't able to get traction in 2nd gear, however when he had it tuned (more power), that somehow magically tuned out his wheel spin completely. Argue all you want, people will overexadurate at the least.

If 450hp on an evo3 is as easy as some of you make it sound, why doesn't the person who's actually running those numbers step up and show us the dyno sheets. I don't care how good of friends you are with someone, unless your doing it urself, I won't believe it.


Now with the headaches out of the way, here's some more imput on my FP 18g. I realized that trying to turn up the timing was a lost cause and was only creating knock. I set the timing back to stock and turned up the boost instead. I'm currently running 1.68bars (~24.5psi) with hardly any knock. The car pulls like hell and I can occasionally completely break loose my tires in 3rd gear merging onto highways and such. I don't have it dyno'ed so I won't pretend I know how much power I'm putting out, but that sounds like atleast 300hp to me.

 

[red91gst]

I'm fast enough. We're not talking track times. We're talking about compressor/turbine potential. What do you have to contribute ?

The problem is you DON'T know what your talking about.

This is the potential of a 16g, what it ACTUALLY MAKES. Its been proven, on the dyno, time and time again and I have the sheets to prove it.

I tuned Curt's old car on MY dyno. I tuned his new car on MY dyno. NEITHER of which were affliated with SBR. They had some SBR parts, which worked great.

The old car made 449awhp UNCORRECTED on a dynojet, new car on a stock 7-bolt made 397awhp on pump gas. Both on a 16g.

danl and Curt Brown have more crediability than you ever will. If you have been around the DSM scene from the beginning, you would know that.

Most of you HAVEN'T gone fast. Your racing on your keyboards.

Have you run low 9's? How about 10's on pump gas? How about being a Crew Cheif for a 6 second DSM??

Didn't think so...

 

[red91gst]

Dyno Sheets

 

[red91gst]

great post......real beneficial.....WTF

Besides... I dont like wrenching in the 9 degree windchill

I think the reason Dan made such a simple post is because there is no way you can rpove a point or even post a dyno graph on this thread without it being contested by 10 people how have never even run a 16g.

I have no doubt that most of you actually have data to backup what your saying, its the 10% that are mump mumps and enter the pissing contest.

The 16g has proven to be one kickass turbo. At the end of last season we ran a 10.33 at over 135mph in Curt's old car on a 16g an E85. All in a street driven AWD 1G. There is NO DOUBT the car was making every bit of the 450whp it showed on the dyno.

I have not run an FP18g yet, but like all products from Robert I'm sure it will live up to its potential and expectations

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

Wow! WTF
I'm definitely keeping my e3b16g now.

What you tune those cars with? Creatine?

 

[red91gst]

Wow! WTF
I'm definity keeping my e3b16g now.

What you tune those cars with?

Both were DSMlink, 1000cc injectors, and a MAFT.

 

[JusMX141]

At the end of last season we ran a 10.33 at over 135mph in Curt's old car on a 16g an E85. All in a street driven AWD 1G. There is NO DOUBT the car was making every bit of the 450whp it showed on the dyno.

God what a great night that was. I still can't believe it was the only t&t night that I left my vidcam at home!

 

[JusMX141]

Nate, I've been wanting to ask you.....was that an off-the-shelf EvoIII on Pat's car, or was it extensively ported (turbine inlet and compressor outlet, wastegate hole, etc.) I know it was internally-gated, I just didn't think the 31mm internal gate those things came with would withstand 27psi without a dump.

 

[Street_Killer]

The problem is you DON'T know what your talking about.

This is the potential of a 16g, what it ACTUALLY MAKES. Its been proven, on the dyno, time and time again and I have the sheets to prove it.

I tuned Curt's old car on MY dyno. I tuned his new car on MY dyno. NEITHER of which were affliated with SBR. They had some SBR parts, which worked great.

The old car made 449awhp UNCORRECTED on a dynojet, new car on a stock 7-bolt made 397awhp on pump gas. Both on a 16g.

danl and Curt Brown have more crediability than you ever will. If you have been around the DSM scene from the beginning, you would know that.

Most of you HAVEN'T gone fast. Your racing on your keyboards.

Have you run low 9's? How about 10's on pump gas? How about being a Crew Cheif for a 6 second DSM??

Didn't think so...

Wow dude, you are being totally ridiculous.... Im so impressed 2 dsm's have over 400hp and close to 400hp on the evo16g. Maybe you should take a look at this.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/156794-evoiii-16g-dyno-sheets.html

I dont know when this thread became the "no it's not impossible to get 450whp with a 16g" Niether of which your examples gave. Ya thats right 449 is not 450. What Im saying is no one really gives a shit that 2 people have ever got over 400whp with a 16g, cause most cant get 300.

Now what this thread is really about 16g vs 18g. If im looking to get 350whp, what am I gonna choose? Something that most people cant get 300 out of or something that flows 50cfm more?

Give up the 16g is god of all turbos cause no one cares.

Oh and I didnt know there was such a thing as a 6sec dsm. Care to point me in the right direction of that?

 

[Boo5t_Addict]

Doesn't Brent Rau's RWD eclipse run high 6's? Oh, and back to the 16g debate. This 449 whp dyno, was the dyno calibrated? And was this on E85 or 93 octane? The reason I ask is, when people use the term pump gas, they tend to not be talking about E85. After all, not every gas pump has it. Either way, congrats on the accomplishments. Were you able to get this same reading again, or was it just a freak thing? Let's not turn this thread into a pissing contest, because there's some good info in here.

 

[drewgray]

I don't think I ever read anyone claiming the 16g the "god of all turbos." However, since you are trying to insinuate that the dyno numbers may be fudged, what do you say about the 135mph trap?

 

[JusMX141]

....since you are trying to insinuate that the dyno numbers may be fudged, what do you say about the 135mph trap?

Hence the reason I wish I had the vidcam with me that night. What a retarded mistake.

 

[dsm-onster]

Ok. I don't know what I'm talking about. . . I havn't run a 16g either . In fact, the 18g and 20g compressor maps are wrong. An evo3 16g can flow as much as the 18g map so the18g map is wrong. The 20g map is wrong because the inducer is almost 1/4 of an ich larger than an evo3 16g. So that puts the 20g in 550 whp territory .

I don't think you mention a clipping job. It's not the compressor. It's the turbine. You know that. It's not a stock evo3 16g when it's been modified. And pushing a compressor to overspin is an exersize in extravegance. We like to keep the turbos we buy.

Your dyno run doesnot show lb/min flow. One guy can make more out of each lb/min than another. But a turbo can flow but so much. You can't tune the airflow potenial differently or the turbo is not the same. There's no need to "go see fo one's self" as the only proof, when there is no logged airflow beyond a certain point. One should get on the "bench" and look at the map/airflow-results and ask, what can I make of this potential. Who would build a car, but not sit down and first calculate the costs/materials/expertise neccesary and available? There are rules-of-thumb that are still consistant regardless of individual spikes in the pool of results. If you're dyno runs are accurate, then the 10.5hp per lb/min rule doesn't apply to you. Congratulation! You're special . Most people only pull out 10 UP TO 10.5 hp per lb/min. Don't think you can fool everyone into thinking an evo3 16g can flow enough for 99% of us looking for 450whp. Instead of taking their tiny e3 16g to you to tune, they can take the money and get a MUCH bigger turbo that will spool w/in 300-400 rpms of an evo3 16g.

Bottem line, FROM EXPERIENCE. The td05H 18g with a larger turbine housing or clipped turbine makes it easier to eek out more power than an evo3 16g. So whether the evo3 16g can put out 450 with you or not; if you've maxed out your evo3 16g, then you can likely do 40-50 cfm more with the td06sl 18g. We all know the same three that rolled out 450whp with the e3 16g. We all know thousands that havn't.

 

[red91gst]

Nate, I've been wanting to ask you.....was that an off-the-shelf EvoIII on Pat's car, or was it extensively ported (turbine inlet and compressor outlet, wastegate hole, etc.) I know it was internally-gated, I just didn't think the 31mm internal gate those things came with would withstand 27psi without a dump.

Ported, stock wastegate flapper, shimmed gate.

 

[red91gst]

Doesn't Brent Rau's RWD eclipse run high 6's?

Yes, it does .

Oh, and back to the 16g debate. This 449 whp dyno, was the dyno calibrated? And was this on E85 or 93 octane? The reason I ask is, when people use the term pump gas, they tend to not be talking about E85. After all, not every gas pump has it. Either way, congrats on the accomplishments. Were you able to get this same reading again, or was it just a freak thing? Let's not turn this thread into a pissing contest, because there's some good info in here.

Yes, dyno is calibrated and UNCORRECTED. On STD correction the car made 461awhp

The car made over 30 pulls that day all between 440 and 461.

 

[red91gst]

Ok. I don't know what I'm talking about. . . I havn't run a 16g either . In fact, the 18g and 20g compressor maps are wrong. An evo3 16g can flow as much as the 18g map so the18g map is wrong. The 20g map is wrong because the inducer is almost 1/4 of an ich larger than an evo3 16g. So that puts the 20g in 550 whp territory . Did you mention a clipping job? It's not the compressor. It's the turbine. You know that. It's not a stock evo3 16g when it's been modified. And pushing a compressor to overspin is an exersize in extravegance. We like to keep the turbos we buy.

Your dyno run doesnot show lb/min flow. One guy can make more out of each lb/min than another. But a turbo can fow but so much. If you're dyno runs are accurate, then the 10.5hp per lb/min rule doesn't apply to you. Congratulation! You're special . Most people only pull out 10 UP TO 10.5 hp per lb/min. Don't think you can fool everyone into thinking an evo3 16g can flow enough for 99% of us to get 450whp. Instead of taking their tiny e3 16g to you to tune, they can take the money and get a MUCH bigger turbo that will spool w/in 300-400 rpms of an evo3 16g.

Bottem line, FROM EXPERIENCE. The 18g with a larger turbine housing or clipped turbine makes it easier to eek out more power than an evo3 16g. So if the evo3 16g can put out 450 with you, then you can do 50-60 cfm more with the 18g.

I never said the 18g wouldn't make more power or flow more than an E316g.

FYI, the first dyno is at 25psi, the second on the stock 7-bolt AND stock head was at 20psi. Don't believe the numbers? Prove me wrong.

The car went 136+ mph in STREET TRIM, trust me the power is there.

If 99% of these people on DSMtuners you talk about can't make 450whp on a 16g without going to a bigger turbo then those 99% obviously aren't doing it right .

It is easy. Curt's car is daily driven, gets 32 mpg, and didn't cost 20k to build. You just need to know how to build a DSM, and how to tune it ;-).

Enough already...

The 16g is an awesome turbo, and for 95% of the DSM community its as big as you need to go for a fast street car.

The 18g will make more power than the 16g, but to you need more than 450awhp and low 10's in a street car??? haha

 

[red91gst]

Who would build a car, but not sit down and first calculate the costs/materials/expertise neccesary and available?

Are you trying to say we DIDN'T do this when we built a 2G that went 9.33 at 156mph on a 37R??

Or when it went 10.13 at 135mph on 93octane in the same 2g we drove to the track on a 3052?

We ARE just a bunch of 20 somethings that threw it together in a 2 car garage, however. hehe

You are correct though, research is the key. And if everyone did do just that they could make this much power on a 16g too.

 

[dsm-onster]

The 18g will make more power than the 16g, but to you need more than 450awhp and low 10's in a street car??? haha

I don't really need more, but I can't get that from an evo3 16g .

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

E3B16G FTW.
Mother of all street turboes! ha ha ha.
I needs to get my wheels on the dyno. Maybe i'm making bout 350hp! yezzzirr! I'll keep my extra $200 dollars for something else now.

 

[danl]

I agree with Nate in that 95% of DSM'ers don't need bigger than a 16g turbo. 80% of the guys running bigger turbos would be faster with the 16g turbos.

You should set goals to earn your merits along the way. Slapping on parts without learning your dues and you'll be slow 99% of the time. The other 1% have a guy who's been their done that helping them out.

You need to be going 13.50's and faster on a 14b before getting a small 16g. Preferably you should be going solid mid 12's.

On a 16g you need to be going solid mid 12's like its your job before the evo 16g.

If you aren't going 11's on the evo 16g your car needs work.

50 trim T4's should be going 10's before moving on. Learning the car as you go. I guess if your FWD and you go 140mph in the quarter your allowed a non ### card and allowed to go to any turbo you want from here because your car is queer, your a ###, and you'll never realize the ET you want.

 

[gdmbat85]

If you guys are going to continue argueing how much power the evo3 can make, you may as well argue what came first, the chicken or the egg - that'll be resolved a lot sooner. Bottom line is that this thread is COMPARING the 2 turbo's against eachother, not what one is capable of. When push comes to shove, the 18g can flow more air than an evo3 and based on common sense, that means more power. Your evo3 can make 450whp, good for you that means that the 18g can make 475. Your evo3 can only make 325.... than you can make 350 on the 18g.

Point is that it doesn't matter what the numbers are when comparing the 2. What matters is how far apart those 2 numbers are. 44lbs/min vs 46lbs/min = 2lbs/min = ~20hp more potential.

 

[Boo5t_Addict]

I'd like to see the tune for that car. Actually, I'd even more like to see what you could do with a 20g.

 

[red91gst]

If you guys are going to continue argueing how much power the evo3 can make, you may as well argue what came first, the chicken or the egg - that'll be resolved a lot sooner. Bottom line is that this thread is COMPARING the 2 turbo's against eachother, not what one is capable of. When push comes to shove, the 18g can flow more air than an evo3 and based on common sense, that means more power. Your evo3 can make 450whp, good for you that means that the 18g can make 475. Your evo3 can only make 325.... than you can make 350 on the 18g.

The only reason I posted is because someone denied that the E316G could make more than 450whp. They are wrong.

Doesn't this sum up the ENTIRE thread then?

What matters is how far apart those 2 numbers are. 44lbs/min vs 46lbs/min = 2lbs/min = ~20hp more potential.

I never wanted to down play the 18g, it is a great turbo, and is worth the extra money.