evo 3 16g vs new fp 18g

[gdmbat85]

The only reason I posted is because someone denied that the E316G could make more than 450whp. They are wrong.

Doesn't this sum up the ENTIRE thread then?



I never wanted to down play the 18g, it is a great turbo, and is worth the extra money.

I didn't mean to come off as targeting what you had said. I just didn't want the arguement on how much power the evo3 can make to continue and turn this thread into another crappy thread of "my friend...." and misfacts. I appreciate your open-mindness and not going off on what I said.

 

[DSMu4ia]

Most of you HAVEN'T gone fast. Your racing on your keyboards.

Have you run low 9's? How about 10's on pump gas? How about being a Crew Cheif for a 6 second DSM??

Didn't think so...

Get em Nate!

See you in a few weeks, bring the Hoegarden!

 

[pickens]

WOW!

I think I know what's going on here. First, there is absolutely no way you can get 450whp from the evo3 in standard form (my experience from running the turbo, 10+ years of building cars/motorcycles, and from the pure physics of it all make it impossible). You have people thinking that they can actually do that with their standard e16g! That is just wrong. Now if you happened to drop a 20G compressor wheel in there, change the housings, added some liquid goodness, then that's a different story. Just come clean. I'm not sure why people don't disclose full facts.

By your dyno math, then I can easily see a 20G putting out 525-550whp! How many people have done that??? So are you saying with over 17+ years of people building DSMs that you have finally figured out how to do what no of the other person has been able to do?

Come on man. Just be real and stop the insanity.

Its simple. Lets see the dyno graph with some hard airflow numbers and a/f numbers to back it up. If you truly have done what no other has been able to do, then it takes some hard indisputable evidence to make it stick. Its just the way the world works. And with all your racing experience I would 100% expect you to dyno and log the above info.

 

[pickens]

But I do agree that most people w/ a e16g don't need bigger until they are making a reliable 350whp on pump gas (unfortuantely, most bearly break 300whp).

So as far as the 18g debate goes, I would skip it altogether for an e16g since I can get 461 corrected whp out of it!!!

 

[illegal99si]

Are you trying to say we DIDN'T do this when we built a 2G that went 9.33 at 156mph on a 37R??

Or when it went 10.13 at 135mph on 93octane in the same 2g we drove to the track on a 3052?

We ARE just a bunch of 20 somethings that threw it together in a 2 car garage, however. hehe

You are correct though, research is the key. And if everyone did do just that they could make this much power on a 16g too.

TPG Tuning FTW

 

[GVR4592]

I've seen a lot of threads in the last few days where people are basing their arguments on assumptions. You guys ASSUME that 450whp is impossible because you haven't done it or seen it done. If I thought Nate was full of shit I would be the first person to say something. Nate and I have never really got along very well on this forum, anybody who wants to search for the threads can. I have no doubt in my mind that they made 450whp with a Evo 3 16g. I don't know if they're using a modified version, I know that FP makes something that they don't have on their site, but it still uses the Evo 3 compressor wheel and compressor housing.

None of you have ever seen a compressor map for the Evo 3 16g anyway, so you have no way of knowing what the theoretical limit of the turbo is. And this whole airflow argument is worthless. Airflow doesn't equal horsepower, it's a rough estimate as to the horsepower potential with a LOT of variables.

If you have dsmlink, go out and datalog a run. Then pull 15 degrees of timing, add 10% fuel and datalog again. Does airlfow change? No. Does horsepower change? Yes. Does that mean that 44 lbs/min equals 460 horsepower. No. It could be anywhere from 100 to 500 horsepower, there are too many variables to determine the actual number.

You guys have to realize that there are people out there with more knowledge and experience than you, and they're capable of doing things that 99% of us can't do. How does/did Shepherd always run almost a full second faster than all of the other guys that were running the same turbo he was? How does Curt Brown set Evo stock turbo records and half a dozen other records? How does Joe Bucci run 9's, Pat Donaldson run low 10's and Tom Noonen run low 11's in a heavy ass Galant, with the Evo 3 16g? How did Andrew and Nate run low low 10's on pump gas? Another guy that most people aren't familiar with, Brandon Ruiz, ran a 10.9 with a T25 and a STOCK FUEL SYSTEM. How do they do it? They know things that you don't know and they don't have the "it's impossible" attitude.

Ever wonder why none of these people post on this forum? For the same reason most people don't post their accomplishments, they don't want to listen to somebody at their keyboard 2000 miles away tell them that they're full of shit. If you guys were capable of independent thought, you'd probably have much faster cars. Instead you just follow the crowd and repeat the same bullshit you read in the last thread.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I agree with Nate in that 95% of DSM'ers don't need bigger than a 16g turbo. 80% of the guys running bigger turbos would be faster with the 16g turbos.

You should set goals to earn your merits along the way. Slapping on parts without learning your dues and you'll be slow 99% of the time. The other 1% have a guy who's been their done that helping them out.

You need to be going 13.50's and faster on a 14b before getting a small 16g. Preferably you should be going solid mid 12's.

On a 16g you need to be going solid mid 12's like its your job before the evo 16g.

If you aren't going 11's on the evo 16g your car needs work.

50 trim T4's should be going 10's before moving on. Learning the car as you go. I guess if your FWD and you go 140mph in the quarter your allowed a non ### card and allowed to go to any turbo you want from here because your car is queer, your a ###, and you'll never realize the ET you want.

But you got to remember, most people who run 16g is because these are DAILY DRIVEN street cars with poor broke people like me who dont have money to constantly stay on top of things, or constantly fix things when they break. Also these same people with 16gs budgets means they arent trying to dump mad money on a bigger turbo/ manifold/ external w.g. etc.

The ones who do have money for the larger turbo equipment, well theyd rather be lazy and make more power easier than harder.... I.E. " Why try to run 11s on a fwd dsm when AWD is available."
Sure you can do it, but most ppl take the easy way out. So you technically cant say everyone should be making xxx amount of power/ or shouldve had a timeslip that says xx.xx before upgrading their turbos to the next step...

Youd have to be pushing everything extremely hard to squeeze even 400awhp out of a 16g. Id rather set my car up conservatively so it'll survive longer even if some are making another 100awhp than me on their 16gs.

But on a slightly different note, given that my car has gone low 12s on a 14b and i am aiming for mid 11s with the evo3 before going to a 3052 which will be end goal. I seem to follow your idea of how progression should be.

 

[pickens]

Then why not share the key to doing what 99% of others can't figure out on their own. Please share how you tuned to get 450whp on the evo3. What a/f ratio did you target? What timing? (Those are really the only two variables DSMLink controls). What octane/brand gas? Were you able to get the turbo to maintain boost? If so how?

These simple questions and answers are a better way to discuss. Obviously, you must know more than me if you are able to push what supposedly is the same turbo as I have ran (which I highly doubt you ran those numbers on a standard evo3) to a level I was not able with roughly the same modifications, so please enlighten.

 

[JET]

It is all about the VE of the engine. You need to get the engine to make the most out of the air it has. Pumping losses are pure waste, so are air flow restrictions. Curt has a lot of years in this game and has always done amazing things. I lined up against him at the DSM Shootout (2004?) in the Quick 16 and he pulled a 1.28 60' against me. He knows the tricks and can drive like a mofo. He has talked to a lot of people and downloaded a lot of knowledge.

 

[red91gst]

I've seen a lot of threads in the last few days where people are basing their arguments on assumptions. You guys ASSUME that 450whp is impossible because you haven't done it or seen it done. If I thought Nate was full of shit I would be the first person to say something. Nate and I have never really got along very well on this forum, anybody who wants to search for the threads can. I have no doubt in my mind that they made 450whp with a Evo 3 16g. I don't know if they're using a modified version, I know that FP makes something that they don't have on their site, but it still uses the Evo 3 compressor wheel and compressor housing.

None of you have ever seen a compressor map for the Evo 3 16g anyway, so you have no way of knowing what the theoretical limit of the turbo is. And this whole airflow argument is worthless. Airflow doesn't equal horsepower, it's a rough estimate as to the horsepower potential with a LOT of variables.

If you have dsmlink, go out and datalog a run. Then pull 15 degrees of timing, add 10% fuel and datalog again. Does airlfow change? No. Does horsepower change? Yes. Does that mean that 44 lbs/min equals 460 horsepower. No. It could be anywhere from 100 to 500 horsepower, there are too many variables to determine the actual number.

You guys have to realize that there are people out there with more knowledge and experience than you, and they're capable of doing things that 99% of us can't do. How does/did Shepherd always run almost a full second faster than all of the other guys that were running the same turbo he was? How does Curt Brown set Evo stock turbo records and half a dozen other records? How does Joe Bucci run 9's, Pat Donaldson run low 10's and Tom Noonen run low 11's in a heavy ass Galant, with the Evo 3 16g? How did Andrew and Nate run low low 10's on pump gas? Another guy that most people aren't familiar with, Brandon Ruiz, ran a 10.9 with a T25 and a STOCK FUEL SYSTEM. How do they do it? They know things that you don't know and they don't have the "it's impossible" attitude.

Ever wonder why none of these people post on this forum? For the same reason most people don't post their accomplishments, they don't want to listen to somebody at their keyboard 2000 miles away tell them that they're full of shit. If you guys were capable of independent thought, you'd probably have much faster cars. Instead you just follow the crowd and repeat the same bullshit you read in the last thread.

You read my mind, thank you ;-)

 

[red91gst]

Then why not share the key to doing what 99% of others can't figure out on their own. Please share how you tuned to get 450whp on the evo3.

8 years ago I didn't know either. It's not JUST the parts, it's not JUST my fingers on the laptop. I can't possibly sum up 8 years of DSM knowledge into one post ;-).

However, it WAS a stock ported E316G right from FP. No special compressor wheel. No trick turbine housing. Off the shelf stuff.

I don't have to prove anything to you, I tried that with the pump gas car when everyone denied it was actually 93 octane. It was.

Your name and who stands behind you means ALOT in this community, and I respect those who have helped me and those that continue to do so.

 

[super95awd]

Wow, my head hurts. Can we get that Hoegaarden now instead of in a month?? I'm pretty sure Tony would agree with me on this one. Now quick, somebody buy my 37R so we can go do some more impossible things!!!!

 

[91-gsx]

8 years ago I didn't know either. It's not JUST the parts, it's not JUST my fingers on the laptop. I can't possibly sum up 8 years of DSM knowledge into one post ;-).

However, it WAS a stock ported E316G right from FP. No special compressor wheel. No trick turbine housing. Off the shelf stuff.

I don't have to prove anything to you, I tried that with the pump gas car when everyone denied it was actually 93 octane. It was.

Your name and who stands behind you means ALOT in this community, and I respect those who have helped me and those that continue to do so.

Those are some crazy things you guys pull off. Good shit. I mean if it isn't too much trouble or too secret. Is there a way we can get the timing, a/f ratio and boost on the turbo. If not, no biggy. Thanks for the help

 

[pboglio]

To Nate, Curt, Danl,

Congratulations, those are some sick numbers out of an EVOIII 16g. I'm gonna guess but I'd imagine some of the power is not coming from airflow or h.p. at all, but from stuff like lightened flyweels, balance shafts removed, lightweight pulley's, lighter wheels etc.

Looks like 449 w.h.p. is around 517 crank h.p. I could see an EVOIII pull at least 46-47 lb/min with the MAF removed based just on "benchtop" analysis of the compressor map. Toss in another 20-25 h.p. worth of h.p. effect from lightened components. Then as mentioned already, that 10 h.p. to 1 lb/min rule is just a rule of thumb, a super lean A/F ratio on E85 or racing gas probably changes that value quite a bit.

As "Black Bullet" mentioned already, I'd personally rather run a bigger turbo and make more power easier. I've already done the small turbo thing to death, just want the power now

 

[dsm-onster]

This is my point^^^ BTW, there is no evo3 16g map. So there is nothing on which you can base your speculation. . .

. . . This is why I continue to ask for a log or verified airflow numbers. Not to calculate "theoretical hp" from some guesstimate formula of hp per lb/min. But so that I can see how I would do with this turbo. I know what I can do with each lb/min. It's likely alot less than you guys. But I don't care. I'm not going to drive to you for a tune. I simply will save the money and get a bigger turbo. What did He flow on the dyno? Where are the logs?

GVR4592. . . You are in fact fueling my arguement:

None of you have ever seen a compressor map for the Evo 3 16g anyway, so you have no way of knowing what the theoretical limit of the turbo is. And this whole airflow argument is worthless. Airflow doesn't equal horsepower, it's a rough estimate as to the horsepower potential with a LOT of variables.

Airflow numbers are worthless when it comes to Nate tuning an evo3 16g, perhaps any other turbo. I wonder what he could get out of a t25!!! But I'm not as experienced, nor do I have the time/money to take it to the best. I'm not where he is on the curve yet, so I need to see where the airflow number has gone on this setup to know how much I can get out of my car or my brothers or several of my friends with 16Gs. It would be safe to assume that Curt couldn't gain any more airflow from that 16g. He would have if it were possible. He had plenty of the right fuel and other support. But, no one will divulge that maximum number.

I know there are tuning secrets that has take years to understand and implement. I don't know 90% of those secrets. But, I know where I am with what I can get out of each lb/min. Where's the airflow maximum with this turbo? If a compressor map is just theory anyway, then Curt's car is the proof of what that number actually is. We don't need the map if we have actual airflow logs.

 

[BGGSTin]

You guys have to realize that there are people out there with more knowledge and experience than you, and they're capable of doing things that 99% of us can't do. How does/did Shepherd always run almost a full second faster than all of the other guys that were running the same turbo he was? How does Curt Brown set Evo stock turbo records and half a dozen other records? How does Joe Bucci run 9's, Pat Donaldson run low 10's and Tom Noonen run low 11's in a heavy ass Galant, with the Evo 3 16g? How did Andrew and Nate run low low 10's on pump gas? Another guy that most people aren't familiar with, Brandon Ruiz, ran a 10.9 with a T25 and a STOCK FUEL SYSTEM. How do they do it? They know things that you don't know and they don't have the "it's impossible" attitude.

Ever wonder why none of these people post on this forum? For the same reason most people don't post their accomplishments, they don't want to listen to somebody at their keyboard 2000 miles away tell them that they're full of shit. If you guys were capable of independent thought, you'd probably have much faster cars. Instead you just follow the crowd and repeat the same bullshit you read in the last thread.

Yea this probably is the best sum up that someone could have said. I'm quite surprised that someone actually agreed or at least didn't jump on the "no you didn't" bandwagon. But really, good job.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

^^The above adds to the knowledge and take away the "it's impossible" attitude...I bet no one here would try to make an electric start Vespa...that's what I thought.

 

[red91gst]

That is the most amazing picture I have ever seen.

Best beer. Ever.

And is probably why the car is fast. I wonder what the octane rating of Hoegarrden is...

 

[SBR Joe]

That is the most amazing picture I have ever seen.

Best beer. Ever.

And is probably why the car is fast. I wonder what the octane rating of Hoegarrden is...

VP import for the soul.


Joe

 

[3literpwr]

My rally car made 380hp with an evo 3 16g on 100oct gas at 18psi... I lost power over that boost pressure.... The car was run on a dynopack off the front wheels...


motor specs are as follows..

9:1 B&B motor...
Stock cams and gears
2.5" exhaust with a metal core cat
Pe-LTD ecu
Delphi 580 cc injectors (NO that car was not maxed out on duty cycle)
5 angle valve job with a very light port job
Neon srt4 intercooler
lightly ported intake mani
evo 3 turbo, manifold and o2 housing
sard FPR set at a base of 38psi

Flickr Photo Download: dynowithout32mm

 

[drewgray]

Then why not share the key to doing what 99% of others can't figure out on their own. Please share how you tuned to get 450whp on the evo3. What a/f ratio did you target? What timing? (Those are really the only two variables DSMLink controls). What octane/brand gas? Were you able to get the turbo to maintain boost? If so how?

These simple questions and answers are a better way to discuss. Obviously, you must know more than me if you are able to push what supposedly is the same turbo as I have ran (which I highly doubt you ran those numbers on a standard evo3) to a level I was not able with roughly the same modifications, so please enlighten.

They make their living tuning cars. Why should they share what they are paid to do to the world? I feel paying them to tune my car is well worth the money especially after seeing what they have accomplished on pump gas.

Nate, I'll see you on saturday.

- Drew

 

[dsm-onster]

They make their living tuning cars. Why should they share what they are paid to do to the world? I feel paying them to tune my car is well worth the money especially after seeing what they have accomplished on pump gas.

Nate, I'll see you on saturday.

- Drew

Be sure to come back and tell us what your results are. Maybe post a log . We don't need the .dat file if you're running link. Let secrets stay secrets. Just a text file of rpm, lbs/min, and %idc.

 

[pickens]

Tuning an engine is not rocket science. There are so many indisputable facts on IC engines that most techicnally inclined can take the time to learn since the information is well documented (IC engines are old technology with over 100 years of commerical experience). What I'm saying is, no one is re-writing the books on gasoline powered IC engines. Airflow is the single most determining factor in determining a maximum output of an internal combustion engine. Period. That is not just theory, but what A.) Your 4G63 was designed around by a team of hundreds of engineers. B.) The name of the game in every single racing motorsport (hence restrictor plates, limits on cc's, etc) and C.) Solid engine design is all about.

There is not much secret to anything with posting the a/f ratios, timing, boost, and type of fuel that was ran. As mysterious as many of you think DSMlink is (it is an awesome program by the way), but there are really only two variables you can affect (timing and a/f). Its probably harder to tune w/ an AFC then it is w/ DSMlink.

So when you do have your car tuned on their dyno this saturday, please record the logs and post back your results. With the magic tune, I expect no less than 400whp on the 16g.

 

[3literpwr]

I would like to see the timing logs... I kept my curve on the safe side due to all the heat and such I see in a rally... Also having the option to run pump gas in a pinch is nice.

LP

 

[drewgray]

I never said I run a 16g. Either way, I expect no magic. I just know that they will be able to pull the most out of my setup given its limitations, and yes I do plan to have logs recorded.

 

[red91gst]

Tuning an engine is not rocket science. As mysterious as many of you think DSMlink is (it is an awesome program by the way), but there are really only two variables you can affect (timing and a/f). .

Are you a tuner? Do people pay you to tune their car? How long have you been tuning 4G63 powered cars? How much power have you made? How fast have you gone?

Your right, fuel and timing sliders are all that it takes to tune a car. Why would ANYONE need anything more?

AEM must be going out of business....

So when you do have your car tuned on their dyno this saturday, please record the logs and post back your results. With the magic tune, I expect no less than 400whp on the 16g.

Did you not read anything I posted? Its not JUST in the tune. There is no magic, no special buttons.

Curt's car was low 11's AFR, 15* timing at peak torque and advancing to 21* by redline. What secrets?

Can we please drop this and get back on topic? Facts are facts, I posted dyno sheets, time slips, and numbers, where are yours?