evo 3 16g vs new fp 18g

[BGGSTin]

Tuning an engine is not rocket science. There are so many indisputable facts on IC engines that most techicnally inclined can take the time to learn since the information is well documented (IC engines are old technology with over 100 years of commerical experience). What I'm saying is, no one is re-writing the books on gasoline powered IC engines. Airflow is the single most determining factor in determining a maximum output of an internal combustion engine. Period. That is not just theory, but what A.) Your 4G63 was designed around by a team of hundreds of engineers. B.) The name of the game in every single racing motorsport (hence restrictor plates, limits on cc's, etc) and C.) Solid engine design is all about.

There is not much secret to anything with posting the a/f ratios, timing, boost, and type of fuel that was ran. As mysterious as many of you think DSMlink is (it is an awesome program by the way), but there are really only two variables you can affect (timing and a/f). Its probably harder to tune w/ an AFC then it is w/ DSMlink.

So when you do have your car tuned on their dyno this saturday, please record the logs and post back your results. With the magic tune, I expect no less than 400whp on the 16g.

You sir are quite possibly the most ignorant person I've ever heard open their mouth. Have you accomplished the things that TPG has, if it weren't for Nate these "out of the ordinary" things wouldn't have happened. Just because you havn't been able to tune cars the way he can it doesn't make you look any better to just go ahead and presume that it's a cakewalk. Anything "looks" easy from the outside looking in, go ahead and do something...when you see what it takes to run low 10's on pump gas...if you havn't given up by then, then you'll have a valid argument.
Sure there may be come given factors when tuning but every motor does have its own personality too. Go start reading the threads about the tune in the old setup of the 2g that read no knock on its tune on pump gas...everyone presumed we overlooked the knock sensor not working. Please go back to replying to every thread you can without researching or just trying to start an argument. Every comment you've made on this thread's been 'dick'.
You've made no valid arguments, it doesn't matter how much proof Nate throws at you because you'll just have something to throw back because your '"epeen" is so much larger...and I assure you, it's not (dont ask ) . It didn't matter with the "pump gas" argument and it's not going to matter now. Accept whatever dignity you've left and let it go. If you want to make a post: research, ask, explain, talk...don't simply try to attack because to you it doesn't seem fathomable.
We'd still be living in the stone age if it weren't for the innovaters who didn't listen to people like you telling them they're wrong or it's impossible to do....I'd get into it but I'm sure it'd just be another pissing contest of you tyring to disprove the history books. So please Mr. Rocket Science stop this nonsense...

...and to answer you A's,B's, and C's..
A) our 4G63 team was designed around a group of a few 'to-be' engineers.
B) that's the easiest way to control the parameters so no one has an advantage of others, everthing in the motorsports your referring to is equal except for the driver...however EVERY CAR DOES NOT WIN...BUT IT"S THE SAME CAR!!! WTF?!
C) Our engine designs are about as stable as a fat man on a 2 legged bar stool. (after many Hoegaardens of course...this explains why he wouldn't be able to simplly balance the stool as you may try to prove me wrong in you next post.)

...NOW THIS IS AN ACCOMPLISHMENT...

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And WTF seriously don't try to prove this photo wrong...no photoshop was necessary I know it may seem beyond the bounds of this thing you call physics but that Sir is a FLYING GLASS OF HOEGAARDEN!!

eF gravity and ef....

 

[dsm-onster]

Are you a tuner? Do people pay you to tune their car? How long have you been tuning 4G63 powered cars? How much power have you made? How fast have you gone?

Your right, fuel and timing sliders are all that it takes to tune a car. Why would ANYONE need anything more?

AEM must be going out of business....



Did you not read anything I posted? Its not JUST in the tune. There is no magic, no special buttons.

Curt's car was low 11's AFR, 15* timing at peak torque and advancing to 21* by redline. What secrets?

Can we please drop this and get back on topic? Facts are facts, I posted dyno sheets, time slips, and numbers, where are yours?

What the he!! was the airflow recorded, Nate?!!!! That's a fact not revealed.

To BGGSTin, he still hasn't given us that airflow number. . . That's alot of "proof" not given. Don't you think that would quench this debate?

I think that one experienced can make way more hp out of a certain airflow than a backyard tuner, even if he thinks he's graduated from that position. But, no one has even put that airflow number out there. Even just to compare this e3 16g to an 18g compressor map, which we now have. Give the general altitude and intake temp. . .

 

[red91gst]

Airflow numbers logged by DSMlink through a MAFT are not accurate enough. Look at the posted Andrew made with numbers from the 3052 on pump, nobody believed it, I don't see the point .

 

[pickens]

Make no mistake about it. I don't have an ego here or am trying to prove a pissing contest. There's no need to resort to personal attacks. I am simply trying to keep reality in check. Don't believe everything you hear (especially when someone makes money off of it).

I am sorry to question your gods. But, since my credentials have been questioned. I've been racing for over ten years now (DSMs about six years) with enough budget to do just about anything I want to any of my current performance vehicles ( 2 fully built 2G DSMs 1FWD/1AWD, 2 super bikes, 1 hot boat, and the pit truck). I've probably ran more nitrous and boost and tortured motors than I care to think about. Along with that, I have the time, experience, and willing to push the envelope as well. I'm a degree'd engineer so I have a few brain cells rattling around.


And for the record, my point with DSMlink was that YOU only had two variables to control during your 450+whp dyno run. So there is very little "magic" that can be done, so something else must be up that's not being disclosed.

I agree, lets drop it and move on. People can make up their own minds at this point about reality. The debate is evo3 vs 18g. I say stick w/ the evo3 (thorughbred all mitsu turbo).

 

[red91gst]

And for the record, my point with DSMlink was that YOU only had two variables to control during your 450+whp dyno run. So there is very little "magic" that can be done, so something else must be up that's not being disclosed.

There are more than two variables to control. And there is MUCH more to making power than the tune in the EMS, ask any of the guys on my team, I'm just the pretty boy on the laptop.

The magic is in the car setup, not the tune.

 

[dsm-onster]

Airflow numbers logged by DSMlink through a MAFT are not accurate enough. Look at the posted Andrew made with numbers from the 3052 on pump, nobody believed it, I don't see the point .

HAHA! what!??? What is the difference? Didnt you clamp the baro reading in link? Then who cares? If the reading is within a pound or 2 that's good enough to end this. A gm maf is accurate enough for an lt1.

If it isn't within a pound or 2. . . Was this blowthru? It randomly spikes at very small intervals, if it's acting up. We all can see that. So if it's dropping counts, show us a log of it doing that.

So was it blow through? and what was the airflow?

 

[illegal99si]

Wow, my head hurts. Can we get that Hoegaarden now instead of in a month?? I'm pretty sure Tony would agree with me on this one. Now quick, somebody buy my 37R so we can go do some more impossible things!!!!

how much for the 37r

 

[BGGSTin]

Make no mistake about it. I don't have an ego here or am trying to prove a pissing contest. There's no need to resort to personal attacks. I am simply trying to keep reality in check. Don't believe everything you hear (especially when someone makes money off of it).

I am sorry to question your gods. But, since my credentials have been questioned.
I agree, lets drop it and move on. People can make up their own minds at this point about reality. The debate is evo3 vs 18g. I say stick w/ the evo3 (thorughbred all mitsu turbo).

1. I don't believe everything I hear...I was there when it happened.
2. Reality is what happens, not what you think can or is supposed to happen.
2. Nate's not my god but he is one of my BFF's.
3. I wasn't questioning your credentials and if I did it's because you considered us to have none.
4. I'm glad you dropped the issue too...lets move on.
5. I'm pretty sure our budgets pretty high.
6. Maybe you just have too many toys and havn't put the time into on specific area like we have...we don't have jobs..for most people in TPG they're spare time IS TPG. I'm not questioning your experience I'm just saying Nates gifted at what he does and the right group of people with the desire for excellence has gotten together.
7. I hope this was nice enough for young childrens ears.
8. I have to type an english paper.
9. Please don't post anything else so I have to respond again.
10. Thanks.

 

[dsm-onster]

6. Maybe you just have too many toys and havn't put the time into on specific area like we have...we don't have jobs..for most people in TPG they're spare time IS TPG. I'm not questioning your experience I'm just saying Nates gifted at what he does and the right group of people with the desire for excellence has gotten together.
7. I hope this was nice enough for young childrens ears.
8. I have to type an english paper.
9. Please don't post anything else so I have to respond again.
10. Thanks.

Still no airflow numbers or a log posted. . . Apparently, one can't lose his head-and-shoulders-above-the-rest advantage in a dsmlink log. So, post it!

I smell a toonor shop marketing ploy.

 

[BGGSTin]

Still no airflow numbers or a log posted. . . Apparently, one can't lose his head-and-shoulders-above-the-rest advantage in a dsmlink log. So, post it!

I smell a toonor shop marketing ploy.

1. I don't understand your hyphenated words.
2. I only have the videos as i'm in morgantown and Nate's in Pa or wherever at the moment.
3. Are you trying to be an asshole right now?

Why the hell are you so interested in a log anyways...it won't prove anything, i havn't talked to Nate besides when I texted him to look at the sweet ass Hoegaarden pics I posted.
None of my 'Link logs ever showed the correct airflow and when Andrew (no not me silly posted ones for the 3052 that was a whole 'nother ordeal.
I've obviously wasted my time once again by strolling onto this site, I simply came to defend a good friend who was being questioned by a bunch of people who don't know what they're talking about and just want to pick a fight.

...the only marketing ploy here is for Hoegaarden, I wrote the last post like I didn't so I didn't contradict myself by running my mouth to start shit. I said for everyone to drop it so I didn't make myself look like an ass. I wondered why I never came on here anymore.

...additionally I'm glad you've referred to us as a "tooner shop." I wont start into things since i don't want to damage anyone elses reputation. I mean I guess with accomplishment you get criticism right? I guess so, I guess you get jealousy and all that other good stuff when you accomplish things that people who've been in the industry for half their lives havn't accomplished yet. Like I said I'm in college and I'm writing an English paper...again I've been distracted from that and I THANK YOU AGAIN. SIR 2!!

ANYWAYS...FROM THE TOOOOOOONERS THEMSELVES HERE ARE THE DAMN LOGS:

PULL #1

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Now as you can see the pull went quite well although we did get a bit of knock through the rough terrain.

PULL #2

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Here's a snapshot of the same pull about 5 seconds later. A few degrees were added which once things got going limited the knock.

PULL #3

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Here we made a pull on the dyno and yup we were wrong...only about 2HorsePower or so...

*The airflow for the following pulls was around 5-10MPH.



I hope to see everyone at the Shootout when it rolls around again but I'm sure you'll all be too busy typing away about how we didn't run the times we did or something to that affect...

F*** the nonsense people...

and about this:
9. Please don't post anything else so I have to respond again.
I said in number 8 that I was writing an english paper...that's why I said this...thanks for listening. :'(

 

[red91gst]

16g Log

 

[fwdeclipse]

I think this thread has gotten a bit out of hand. I think thats aewsome you guys make some sick numbers thats for sure. But to say that everyone can do that is just not reasonable. For the average dsmer its not in the budget and people dont have the "skill" you guys have to get those numbers.

 

[danl]

To Nate, Curt, Danl,

Congratulations, those are some sick numbers out of an EVOIII 16g.

Just so you know I've never ran an evo 16g. Maybe someday but can't afford one right now. I like freebie blown up 14b's that I piece together to make 1 good 14b.

 

[danl]

Still no airflow numbers or a log posted. . . Apparently, one can't lose his head-and-shoulders-above-the-rest advantage in a dsmlink log. So, post it!

I smell a toonor shop marketing ploy.

Dude its not accurate when going through a MAFT. The DSP correction from the GM MAF to the DSM correction table isn't perfect.

 

[JusMX141]

~~

Andrew II, Nate.....you guys made my night with your logs and airflow graphs!

 

[super95awd]

Holy crap Batman. This has turned into a good one hasn't it. I'm staying out of it. I like to be the one who walks quietly and carries a big stick .

illegal99si: You gots you a PM!

 

[mnetwork]

Ok, I'm sick of hearing all this bull. One thing I've come to realize is that people love to lie about their car. The other week i was at a meet talking to another DSM'er and he told me that he was running 300hp and 400lb/ft torque on the stock T-25. Ontop of that, he wasn't able to get traction in 2nd gear, however when he had it tuned (more power), that somehow magically tuned out his wheel spin completely. Argue all you want, people will overexadurate at the least.

If 450hp on an evo3 is as easy as some of you make it sound, why doesn't the person who's actually running those numbers step up and show us the dyno sheets. I don't care how good of friends you are with someone, unless your doing it urself, I won't believe it.


Now with the headaches out of the way, here's some more imput on my FP 18g. I realized that trying to turn up the timing was a lost cause and was only creating knock. I set the timing back to stock and turned up the boost instead. I'm currently running 1.68bars (~24.5psi) with hardly any knock. The car pulls like hell and I can occasionally completely break loose my tires in 3rd gear merging onto highways and such. I don't have it dyno'ed so I won't pretend I know how much power I'm putting out, but that sounds like atleast 300hp to me.

I was there for that T-25 story... veryy funyy. Hope you hit the dyno soon George..

 

[BGGSTin]

Just as an update since I know you're all probably wondering I did finish that English paper.

I <3 You All.

 

[JusMX141]

....Airflow numbers are worthless when it comes to Nate tuning an evo3 16g, perhaps any other turbo. I wonder what he could get out of a t25!!! <b>But I'm not as experienced,</b> nor do I have the time/money to take it to the best.

<b>.....I know there are tuning secrets that has take years to understand and implement. I don't know 90% of those secrets.</b>

Please don't take offense to what I'm about to say. I realize that you post useful information on this forum on a daily basis, and you've been the only person so far to recommend me for rep points for the info that I've posted as well.....and that is VERY appreciated. However, by admitting that you're lacking the tuning knowledge that Nate has, does that make you feel as though you deserve your "DSM Wiseman" status?

Does being a "Wiseman" mean you have well-rounded knowledge, or be an expert at one certain thing....say, Nate should be a Tuning Wiseman and I should carry some type of Wiseman status for my years of rebuilding DSM turbochargers?

 

[pickens]

There should be a qualifying exam forum for any who wants to be a wiseman (kinda like an advanced degree at a university). People will throw questions, and you have to answer/respond correctly.

 

[Boo5t_Addict]

This thread just fell apart to a pissing match between 4 members over a simple question of how such power was made. If you want to prove your case, post up proof of the tune, or leave it to a pm. I'm not saying such power numbers aren't possible, or else you wouldn't argue so much over it. I'm just saying nobody will believe you until you can prove through factual data, which is obviously much more reliable than just saying it was done. You can't fault someone for being skeptical about something that hasn't ever been documented. People used to think the world was flat until there was proof. That being said, slap a 20g and see what you can do with that. I'm not trying to get involved, I'm just basically saying that none of you can get mad at skepticism without documented evidence to support your case.

 

[red91gst]

I'm just basically saying that none of you can get mad at skepticism without documented evidence to support your case.

Are you ####ing serious? WTF What other evidence do you want? A DSMlink datalog of airflow with a MAFT means jack$hit, if you have tuned that many cars you would understand.

I don't post on this forum as much as I used to for that reason. Too many newbs who don't know what their talking about, yet they criticize someone that has gone 4 seconds faster than they ever will.

I've posted timeslips, dyno sheets, and videos to prove it.

If you think the dyno lies, thats fine, but explain how a 2600lb car traps 136mph on a 16g WITHOUT making 450awhp?

I honestly don't care if you believe it or not. Facts are facts, prove me wrong.

People don't believe we went 10's on pump in the 2g.
People don't believe we went 9.3's at 156 on a 37R.
And people won't believe it when we run 8's this year on a car we drive to the track.

Over and out...

 

[GVR4592]

Please don't take offense to what I'm about to say. I realize that you post useful information on this forum on a daily basis, and you've been the only person so far to recommend me for rep points for the info that I've posted as well.....and that is VERY appreciated. However, by admitting that you're lacking the tuning knowledge that Nate has, does that make you feel as though you deserve your "DSM Wiseman" status?

Does being a "Wiseman" mean you have well-rounded knowledge, or be an expert at one certain thing....say, Nate should be a Tuning Wiseman and I should carry some type of Wiseman status for my years of rebuilding DSM turbochargers?

We're human, we make mistakes just like everybody else. If we were all required to have more knowledge than every body else, there wouldn't be any wisemen. Some of us have a lot of knowledge in one specific area, and some of us have a well rounded knowledge, and some us just wing it because we don't know anything.


If you think you deserve wiseman status, prove it with useful and informative posts.

 

[GVR4592]

There should be a qualifying exam forum for any who wants to be a wiseman (kinda like an advanced degree at a university). People will throw questions, and you have to answer/respond correctly.

Maybe we should do the same for anybody that thinks that it takes 50 lbs/min to make 500chp.

 

[Boo5t_Addict]

Are you ####ing serious? What other evidence do you want? A DSMlink datalog of airflow with a MAFT means jack$hit, if you have tuned that many cars you would understand.

I don't post on this forum as much as I used to for that reason. Too many newbs who don't know what their talking about, yet they criticize someone that has gone 4 seconds faster than they ever will.

I've posted timeslips, dyno sheets, and videos to prove it.

If you think the dyno lies, thats fine, but explain how a 2600lb car traps 136mph on a 16g WITHOUT making 450awhp?

I honestly don't care if you believe it or not. Facts are facts, prove me wrong.

People don't believe we went 10's on pump in the 2g.
People don't believe we went 9.3's at 156 on a 37R.
And people won't believe it when we run 8's this year on a car we drive to the track.

Over and out...

You make my point for me. I'm not attacking you, I'm merely saying that people will oftentimes believe whatever they like, and you can't get mad about it. You get frustrated like a high school kid. At no point in this thread, did I try to imply any tuning knowledge of my own, or even doubt yours, for that matter. Perhaps you should read everything over again, and then you'll realize that I'm not trying to attack you in any way, so you can back off. Oh, and I didn't say I thought the dyno was lying, either, I just asked you if there was a variable there that might throw off readings. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you've probably had a bad day, and that may be the cause of your attitude. But this thread, and many others on this site tend to go from a civil conversation to a child's pissing match. Nobody benefits from that.