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2G What's the deal? Timing belt

Posted by Sjd6795, Sep 25, 2020

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  1. Sjd6795

    Sjd6795 Proven Member

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    Ok so I have all of my timing marks aligned correctly. I am trying to install the belt but it does not have enough slack, I have the tensioner pulley completely lose and the grenade pin still inserted in the auto tensioner. I followed the vfaq for correct routing and that does not work. All my slack is out of the belt and with trying to force the belt on the idler or tensioner pulley it just isn't long enough. I am using the Gates T167 belt and I counted 153 teeth so it has the correct length. Please does anyone have any idea why my belt is so tight to get on?
     

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  2. luv2rallye

    luv2rallye DSM Wiseman

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    For the 2g turbo: There should be no slack in the belt across the cam sprockets - perhaps that's the problem. Remember the exhaust cam usually has to be installed 1 tooth CW on the belt to account for it's tendency to move CCW at that position. Read the red note in step 33 here: http://www.vfaq.com/mods/timingbelt-2G.html. Use bulldog clips to hold the belt on the cam sprockets as shown in figure 16.

    On the tensioner pulley do you have the pulley lip on the inside, and the 2 holes towards the front of the engine? The belt should be loose once you get it on everything. Notice with the tensioner pulley bolt finger loose, the pulley position rotates CCW around the bolt (the holes then rotate under the bolt) since the bolt hole is off center, in order to tension the belt (the pulley position then moves into the belt). You must rotate the pulley in this fashion to tension the belt. Other tips: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/timing-belt-tensioning-tips-for-4g63-turbo.214625/#post-1791544. Remember after tensioning to wait 20 minutes and rotate the crank 6 times and check tension again (grenade pin should slide in easily).
     
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  3. Sjd6795

    Sjd6795 Proven Member

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    I got the belt on but I had to completely remove the auto tensioner, yes all components are oriented in the correct ways. I have the two holes facing downwards which should be correct for tensions however I can only get one bolt back in the auto tensioner when the tension pulley holes are underneath the bolt because it is already really tight.

    My beautiful drawing shows what I am talking about. I have literally 0 slack at any given point, however my tension pulley has the two holes pointing towards the SW position instead of straight down. No matter how much force I try to apply it doesn't budge. It's literally so tight I doubt the auto tensioner grenade pin even needs removed"just kidding but seriously"
     

    Attached Files:

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  4. luv2rallye

    luv2rallye DSM Wiseman

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    You MUST have both tensioner mounting bolts in place or it will move. You have something not right. I would not start that engine until you correct it. Maybe they gave you the wrong TB in the correct box, or one of your pulleys (idler or tensioner) not quite right (which I've seen), or something. I've done a dozen TB's and never had this problem. Something is WRONG - don't start that engine. Many times not using the factory OEM pulley, tensioner, or TB is a problem. What all did you change? Compare parts to OEM and what was on there.

    I've always ended up with the 2 tensioner pulley holes straight down or even a little more CCW. You have something wrong.
     
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  5. Sjd6795

    Sjd6795 Proven Member

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    I've changed valves, cam shafts, and used Gates timing components. I compared to the OEM I took off and everything looks within spec.

    Even if all my timing marks are dead on and I have perfect tension all the way around I'm at a loss at why the two holes wouldn't face down. I may just make sure everything is torqued and pull the pin and rotate the engine by hand and see if it all goes smooth.
     
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  6. luv2rallye

    luv2rallye DSM Wiseman

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    Larger head gasket thickness (although I've never heard it affecting the TB)?
     

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  7. Sjd6795

    Sjd6795 Proven Member

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    Hmm that would be very minimal I'd think. I used a OEM head gasket and torqued my ARP studs 20, 50, 80 using the pattern in the manual.
     

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  8. luv2rallye

    luv2rallye DSM Wiseman

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    Well they don't have to be straight down if the tension is correct - that's just the way it typically ends up. But you HAVE to have both tensioner mounting bolts there.

    Did you replace the idler and tensioner pulleys?
    My bet is on one of them or auto tensioner. After market parts NEVER fit exactly the same. I've seen where the tensioner pulley was the same diameter but the the way the pulley mounted on it's own bracket was such that it tilted just slightly under tension and caused the TB to move over on the edge of the cam sprocket.

    Another reason you must have both auto tensioner bolts in place is because they go through the front case and oil will come out if they're missing. I just did my front case and saw that.

    I've got to go to bed now but I'll check again tomorrow.
     
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  9. Sjd6795

    Sjd6795 Proven Member

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    I only removed the auto tensioner to install the timing belt. Even with the grenade pin in place it was apply pressure on the tension arm. I have the auto tension fully bolted on now. I am uploading a youtube video and will post it here when it's ready.

    A full list of what I did was, New radiator, water pump, full timing components, intake manifold gasket, exhaust manifold gasket, valve cover gasket, head gasket, injector seals, ferrea valves, viton valve seals, BC 268/272 cams, Fuel pressure gauge install, fix exhaust manifold stud, fix damaged water/vacuum lines, spark plugs, and belts.

     
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  10. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    It looks like you can turn the tensioner pulley to give you a little more slack.
     

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  11. Sjd6795

    Sjd6795 Proven Member

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    What would be the best method to turn it? The bolt is hand tight right now so I figured it would rotate whatever direction gave it more slack.
     

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  12. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    Eccentric it out, towards the exhaust side of the motor, as far as it will let you. I think that would put the holes facing that direction also, but don't quote me on that. You should have slack to put the belt on then. I do my timing a bit different, as I put it around my tensioner pulley then slide the belt onto the stationary pulley on the intake side. Usually that turns the crank about 1 tooth when I do it that way so I sit my crank one tooth BEFORE the timing mark to make it line up.
    Just trying to help out.
     

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  13. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    Someone correct me if I’m wrong. On a 6 bolt, you turn the tensioner pulley clockwise for tension. On a 2g 7 bolt, I believe it’s counter clockwise. So to answer your question, you’d turn yours clockwise to give it more slack. Set the tension so the grenade pin slides in and out easily.
     

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  14. Sjd6795

    Sjd6795 Proven Member

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    Ok so as long as my tension is fine I shouldn't worry about the direction of the two holes on the pulley?
     

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  15. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    Correct. That’s what @luv2rallye was saying. You set the tension by rotating the tensioner pulley.
     

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  16. Sjd6795

    Sjd6795 Proven Member

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    Do we have a DIY method of rotating the pulley while we tighten the center bolt to hold it in place?
     

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  17. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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  18. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    That little tool is nice. A 1/4" ratchet will fit on it.
    I believe that if you try to tension it in the wrong direction, your pulley will get close or touch the water pump and as Gary points out, the 2 "eyes" on the pulley should point down for a 7 bolt (I believe) and up for a 6 bolt.
     

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  19. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    If you have trouble getting the belt on I'm betting you have slack on the idle side. It mat not appear so but put a ratchet on the crank and move forward a hair. Once the belt is on all the cogs you can rotate the exhaust cam backward a tooth or so then rotate the crank forward again and double check marks. This will also make sure you have no slack on the idle side, double check marks then you can proceed to tensioning the pulley. I would have the hydraulic in place and bolted down. You try and bolt it down after the fact you can accidently bend the shaft of the tensioner. Get it all in place while the belt is loose. I’ve personally ruined a tensioner because I wasn't paying attention. Expensive mistake.
     
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  20. lasthope05

    lasthope05 Proven Member

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    You don't need a special tool to adjust the tensioner pulley. Just use a prybar or long screwdriver against the water pump and pull up or down against the pulley to tension. Infact, I don't really find any of the timing belt tools that useful/necessary to be honest. Zip ties and a screwdriver is all you need.

    Exactly as pauleyman says, with the TB, you usually want all the tension on the right side and slack on the left. Put the belt over the top cam gears(zip tie in place),over the idler, align the oil pump then over the crank gear(which is offset slightly counterclockwise). Put the belt on the crank and you want to turn the crank pulley clockwise to tension the entire right side and alight all the marks. After that you should be able to slip the belt over the tensioner pulley (which should be loose). After that, reset the pulley tensioner with a prybar and pull the pin. Rotate a few times, wait a few minutes for the hydraulic tensioner to equalize and see if the pin slides back in.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
  21. luv2rallye

    luv2rallye DSM Wiseman

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    Look under "THE EASIEST TENSIONING METHOD I’VE FOUND" and attached pictures here to see this: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/timing-belt-tensioning-tips-for-4g63-turbo.214625/#post-1791544. Just make sure you have a rag between the crowbar and pulley to prevent pulley damage (make sure pulley doesn't get scratched). Initially however holding the tensioner pulley bracket down with tool MD998738 (or you can use the factory battery hold down rod), see pics, helps get the TB on and tension roughly correct. Also, if you have a lot of trouble tensioning, it can help after you pull the granade pin, to hold things in place (when they are close to final position). Example: I use it after pulling the pin (after everything on and tension is roughly close), to compress the auto tensioner just past the pin hole. Then I use crowbar to tighten tensioner pulley. Then when I back off the rod and rotate crank, the pin hole backs up slightly and lines up very close to the auto tensioner case hole. I then repeat until it's perfect (pin slides easily in hole).
     
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  22. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    If you use the special tools and follow instructions its very easy to set it right the first time. No repeats necessary. No setting slightly under the pin tricks etc. Just do what the manual says and done. I quit looking for tricks after 5 belts or so. 50 timing belt jobs or more later I wouldn't do one without the tools unless I were forced to.
     

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  23. Sjd6795

    Sjd6795 Proven Member

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    I didn't use any special tool, the old belt I just cut off and the tensioner had the pin in until timing was correct. I would like to have a timing belt tool kit next time though. $1200+ into this little rebuild I am ready to prime the fluids and turn it over..

    I remember reading something about the lifters since I replaced valves and cam shafts., do I need to wait to start it?
     

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  24. Sjd6795

    Sjd6795 Proven Member

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    Well nothing exploded... I just need to tune a bit.

     

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