The 4G63 NT Engine, and How to make a turbo kit for it!

[TimG]

Your elbow won't work so don't even bother with it. I'd suggest using an intake foam/rubber elbow. The little pieces of foam type rubber that can bend in any direction. Don't mess around with your throttle body cause it could lead to something bad happening ie-hit coolant line running around t-body. Those pieces of foam are very inexpensive and 2 clamps are all you need to make sure it's snug to the t body and also the upper IC pipe.

 

[xhypno]

Originally posted by Vince
If you guys read my profile it tells you just about all I did to my engine.
The ECU swap, knock sensor, turbo MAF, fuel solenoid with injector wiring harness and 550cc injectors. I have a HRC 20g turbo with 3 in downpipe/o2 eliminator with HKS external wastegate with 14 psi spring, no boost controller and I drive it everyday, really hard too. The biggest reason for my motor surviving that psi is the knock sensor. It has pulled timing away on many occasions but since I got the 550's the problem is gone. The headgasket is the same one that came with this motor and I've never taken the head off. I'll also be the first to say that it's not going to last forever, but it's been 5 months now and I do monthly compression checks and theyre the same as before I turbo'd it.
I was also told that the bigger the turbo, the less backpressure on your motor, which is bad for your high compression engine, hence will keep you going longer and safer. So if somebody else tries a 20g and all the mods I did you might be surprised at what your motor can take.

I am sorry, I am always against flamming, but this time I can't help my self.

You are the biggest IDIOT I have seen on this bored yet. So how did you overcome the problem that about 15 people I know about have had, WOW and there pistons are no longer in one peice. You see the nt pistons ring shelf is very close to the top of the piston, and it is made out of very weak cast iorn. Hence too much pressure and good bye. I now know of at least 5 people wows engine handled up to 7psi, then after that it died, I mean in at least 1 weeks time.

I don't see a fuel computer listed, how do you control those 550cc. Every one I know who has a turbo and 550cc injectors run super rich untill they get an fuel controller.

oh and by the way the stock headgasket can only hold 600psi of compression while the engine is running. At 8psi each cylinder will have about 670psi of compression. How did you stop the gasket from blowing. When I went turbo, with forged internals and the stock nt head gasket (stupid me), the gasket blew at 9.5psi, and only because I was using 8.5:1 pistons.

So stop lying and get a life

 

[mavisky]

Originally posted by laser9320
how did you guys that have done it connect the throttle body to the upper i/c hose? I got a t-body elbow but I don't think it will fit without some modification to my t-body.

if you use the nt throttle body the first thing you'll have to do is replace the seals with some from chicago rawhide. there'a vfaq for it. the problem is that the nt throttle body doesn't hold any boost. you could grab a turbo throttle body and get the longer studs that come with it and use it. it simply bolts on.

however the advantage to running the nt throttle body is that it is obviously much larger than the turbo throttle body elbow (its bigger than the stock tb internally as well). what i did was have my tb rebuilt with good seals (oil seals built to withstand 80psi) and had a custom upper interoolcer pipe made out of 2 1/2" mandrel it looks very similar to this now. a nice straight shot from the sidemount straight to the tb.

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[Vince]

Seems to me you and the 15 people you know are idiots. I have nothing to prove to anybody I just try to give advise on what I did to my car so maybe others could have the same luck I did. I say luck because I even said it wouldnt last forever and I couldnt believe I wasnt having problems when I was running 10 psi, let alone 14. All I can say is I have a 14 pound yellow spring from HKS{you can check HKS' catalog if I'm lying} and when I look at my boost gauge it says 14 when Im on it. I guess between the two, I must be running 14 psi. Anybody disagree?
And if you were to look at the fuel tuning forum, I asked if I could run 550's without an AFC, and I got flamed on there too. But I put them on and I got a slightly lumpy idle, but when the boost comes on it runs just fine. I have played with my MAF screw and taken the lower honeycomb out and it seems that maybe that has evened out the 20% the 550's outflow the 450's. I check my plugs weekly and they are not fouling at all. I really dont care about your friends having problems running over 6-7 psi. Maybe you and your friends dont know what your doing, 'cause I run 14 everyday, without failure for the last 5 months, Which is slightly longer time than the week your motors last. Maybe YOUR the problem here, and your "turbocharging abilities".
Maybe your just mad because you started this thread and someone else has achieved more than you have. The funniest part of you flaming me is you saying "I blew my head gasket, I blew this, I blew that." I havent blown anything but my clutch recently, so whose the idiot?
For everybody else I will try to get pictures of my motor and car soon, I'll try to get my stock never blown nt headgasket in the pictures too, but obviously It could be blown and Im lying, but wait, my car started fine this morning and oh yeah I did hit more the 7 psi, AT LEAST 20 TIMES THIS MORNING ALONE, and I think it will be fine for at least the rest of the day, and maybe even for another 5 months, who knows?

 

[steckelberg]

Listen vince, dont waste our post room reading bullcrap just to prove xhypno. Hes been helping us out from the beginning and I dont that to stop because your being a brat. If your coming in to criticize dont. This thread is for help not for #@%#@%#@%#@%#@%ing.

 

[Vince]

Actually, smart guy, you need to re-read the posts. Hondahunter asked me what I did to my car, I answered him and was called an idiot. So you tell me who is being the "brat". Just cause your on his nutts that dosent mean Im not going to respond to that.

 

[mavisky]

Originally posted by Vince
Actually, smart guy, you need to re-read the posts. Hondahunter asked me what I did to my car, I answered him and was called an idiot. So you tell me who is being the "brat". Just cause your on his nutts that dosent mean Im not going to respond to that.

i totally agree. vince even admitted that his car may only last like this for a week or til next year, that's the way it is with these things. not alot of people have done it and just because someone did it another way doesn't necesarily make it right or wrong, its just a way of doing it. ultimately its up to each one of you to decide how you each will go about it. i for example decided i woudl be better off with a full long block out of a turbo car so that i could simply follow the turbo guy's lead since there are alot more turbo dsm's than converted nt's out there. but in the end it cost me quite a bit more than some people due to the paths and decisions i followed.

now lets get the thread back on topic.

 

[xhypno]

I have been working on performance cars for a while, and just saying (even if you say it might last for a little bit, or maybe longer) that a nt block, with stock internals can run 14psi, with out any problems for 5 months, is pure BS.

Clutch problems, I bet!!!! When I first built my friends turbo kit, at 8psi (on forged internals 9.0:1 compression), the stock nt clutch held for the first 2 launchs, then slippied with no end. Let alone more boost then that, your car would have nothing but trouble even moving.

My turbo charging abilities aren't the question, I have gotten multiple cars into the 10's and 11's, and they have ranged, from Porsches to Vettes to Mustangs to my Talon project car. The question is, someone like you who comes on a board and post thing about your how can I put it miracle car that does what no one (I MEAN NO ONE) else has been able to do. Now that leads me to think 2 things, either you are not telling us something (as in what work has really been done to the block), or you are lying. It could be either one, but there is no way, that you can do for 5 months whats no one else has been able to.

Mavisky,
You know how I post on this board, and you know I don't flame unless I have a very good reason to. But look at it this way, how many stock nt blocks have you seen pushing that type of boost. In that I rest my case.

xhypno

 

[mavisky]

Originally posted by xhypno

Mavisky,
You know how I post on this board, and you know I don't flame unless I have a very good reason to. But look at it this way, how many stock nt blocks have you seen pushing that type of boost. In that I rest my case.

xhypno

i agree that his claims are outstanding compared to the average reports of nt project cars. that's why if you notice in my last post i mentioned that its ultimately up to everyone. i could easily come on here claiming that the swap won't work unless everyone uses a turbo block. i mean i've seen freak cars that can withstand things no one else thought possible and it is also possible that this is one of those cars. (14b's in the 12.0 range ) i have even read a post from a dsmtalk member who blew a t-belt and ended up installing nt pistons he had laying around and bosoted 15 psi on them for a few months. i can't remember who he was to check on his current engine status, but i haven't seen a post about him destroying it either (although i could've missed it).

bottom line if that's the way he wants to turbo his car then let him do it. obviously anyone who is serious about doing a project of this magnitude would be wise to do as much research on this swap on not only this site but dsmtalk, talon digest ( if it works again), local dsm clubs, mitsu mechanics in the know (there are some out there), and anyone else with some general dsm knowledge. after doing this i do believe that they will come to the decision that vince's car is not representative of the majority, and that their car's are most likely within the majority of those who can't handle that kind of pressure.

 

[HondaHunter2002]

hey xhypno
check out this ebay thing on the stage 2 clutchmaster
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1867062168

it says stage 2 hold up to 450hp.. so ur sayin that is a crock of shIIzza
i'm better of with centerforce right

 

[Vince]

If anybody ever wants to ask any questions, I would be more than happy to answer them. But if you dont believe what Ive done thats fine. I wont get defensive when I hear you cant run more than whatever psi, and I shouldnt get flamed for saying I run this psi. Nobody knows and nobody can really prove what they have and nobody should have to. This is a site for exchanging ideas and knowledge, not for *#$& talking.

 

[Vince]

And Xhypno, I didnt have a stock clutch , I had a Centerforce custom built the way I wanted it and it has lasted a year. I finished it off this last Friday at the track.

 

[xhypno]

hey honda,

Yeah the clutch master aren't bad, they just wear very fast. They probally could hold 450hp, but not for that long. On my turbo project, the clutch lasted about 3 weeks (on an engine that was built, with a tdo6-18g pushing 18psi). The centerforce stage 3 had a very good write up, so I tried it and it held up for 3month untill my engine blew, because of a bad oil pump. They have about 40% more holding power then the clutch masters stage 3 and a better friction surface. But it is all about your personal preference.

Vince,
Sorry about the flamming, I am just a sturborn unbeliever, but if you are pushing 14psi, good for you and keep it going.

xhypno

 

[HondaHunter2002]

OH NO>> bad oil pump?? i had a $4000 dollar garage bill thanks to a bad oil pump also so i feel your pain.. except u know ur sh!t so i'm sure you did the repair yourself
labour kicked my a$$

 

[xhypno]

No, didn't repair, just bought a new engine (my nt project engine) and started working on it.

 

[TimG]

Just a little confused. I know the gasket kit up here in Canada is different in prices by almost $150 between N/T and Turbo. Can someone explain the gasket differences other then the head gasket so I can understand such a difference. I know my 4G63 block is n/t but what is so different if the block (besides oil squirters) and head (besides cams) that makes the price so variant?

 

[laser9320]

turbo gasket has turbo-exhaust manifold, throttle body-t-body elbow, oil return to oil pan gaskets. I guess it might have some extra crush washers and banjo bolts. That really doesn't justify the extra $150 canadian though.

 

[Vince]

We have all been to buy parts for our cars, and as soon as you say "turbo", all the retailers think is chi-ching. Its all in the name.

 

[xhypno]

The turbo head gasket is a little bit thicker then the NT one. It is a good Idea to get the turbo one. It can hold more pressure and lowers the compression a very little bit. That and Vince is right, they hear turbo and fell their pockets getting bigger.

xhypno

 

[steckelberg]

I would like to hear some totals from people that are completely done everyone who is done

 

[mavisky]

Originally posted by steckelberg
I would like to hear some totals from people that are completely done everyone who is done

what do you mean totals??

dollar or hp??

 

[TimG]

I'm only about 1/4 of the way into the total conversion of my car and I'm at in US figures...
$600 for engine w/o tranny
$600 for upgraded 16G turbo w/ boost controller
$50 for oil pan
$50 for cams
$100 for 2G mani
$80 for 2G MAS
$70 for block gaskets
$40 for head milling
$50 for valve resurfacing

Still need...

Pistons (dunno which ones yet)
O2 housing
Head gasket and head gasket set
Injectors
FPR
Rebuild the t-body with better shaft seals
Hone the cylinder walls
Resurface head (top of cumustion chamber)
APR Head Bolts
Upgraded ignition system (wires and plugs)
Probably more but I forget things sometimes...

THATS ONLY THE ENGINE

Hey, when I get the engine back in one piece, I can officially say I'm 1/2 done. Then an engine swap is due next March. Car conversion should start late April or ASAP. Damn. all my money is gone. But it will be worth it.

 

[mavisky]

well i won't add in all my extraneous costs involved in my two engines and everything. but rather the cost it should be had everything gone right.

engine with mas, turbo, injectors, resistance pack, and ecu = $1200
dp = $175
test pipe = $50
nt clutch upgrade (5 puck unsprung hub) = $180

total = 1605

of course i had alot of things i got for free such as a fuel pump in trade for a k&n and i got a really good deal on the engine combo (too bad it died on me)

 

[laser9320]

i have all the parts i need for my conversion except for a head gasket, flywheel, clutch, and some little misclaneous things. So far i've spent $1300. I got a good deal on a 6 bolt shortblock for $570. Keep in mind that you will end up with a lot of spare non-turbo parts that can be sold for a little bit of money or used for backup/other projects.

 

[steckelberg]

These totals have both inspired me and discouraged me....how much do you think most mechanics would charge? Im afraid to do it myself.