2G Spyder 4g64 Hybrid Turbo

[alexr254]

I

Thank you for documenting this I have plans for my Spyder and your write up has been extremely thorough and helpful in planning. Good luck! Glad to see you're still at it.

Thanks for saying this
Honestly, i typically dont do this. I've never made a blog before and i've never recorded myself while i do stuff.

Without these forums and the help from a myriad of folks here i would have never been able to get as far as i have with this project. So i decided im going to document this journey and share it here for folks such as yourself.

If you have any questions that i may be able to help with, based on this experience, i would be happy to

 

[Dericsh]

Glad you’re back at it and keeping us updated!

 

[alexr254]

Which tool do you guys use to check the tension on the alt/ac/ps belts?
The clicker's lowest reading is 30lbs. Manual says the belts should be 22lbs.

And im not about to spend hundreds to get a tool i'll probably use once.

Before this build i had an issue with a squeaking belt. Not sure which one it was. But boy was it annoying.

Finished the timing and timing belt install. (Curious what complications i will run into with the 1G CAS)
Finished all wiring.
Installed all drive belts.
Finished installing the diverter valve.

At this point i just need to tension the belts, double check that i did not leave any loose bolts anywhere, top off the oil, top off the anti freeze, top off the Power Steering fluid, bleed the breaks again (new rear disk breaks), charge the battery, get my laptop ready loaded with the latest ecmlink software, fire her up and cross fingers.
I have a red top optima battery that also has an auto quick disconnect if the battery get5s below a certain voltage. So im hoping the battery is not completely drained, it feels like i havent started it in over a year. I dont keep track but it must be something close to that.

After a bit of tuning i will start checking the AC vacuum and fill it up with freon. While i had it all apart i changed the AC compressor.

The O2 sensor for the wideband is still out, as per instructions.
I got a boost leak tester and a smoke tester just to be prepared.

 

[DSMPT]

Which tool do you guys use to check the tension on the alt/ac/ps belts?

Me, my finger, touch sense and eyesight is the tool (I'm sure many of us here)

 

[alexr254]

Me, my finger, touch sense and eyesight is the tool (I'm sure many of us here)

In the past that has led to squeaking for me. For me personally some sort of gauge is preferred.
My push strength and my eyesight can be different from anyone else's. I don't consider that a great method for checking tension.
But i get where you are coming from.

For now i found a pen tension gauge that costs 30 bucks online, which looks like it may be ok for this.

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[alexr254]

To add to the list of parts needed for the head swap.
I also had to purchase a lower and mid timing cover plate. As well as a cam cover plate.
Some people may be ok without a timing or cam cover plate. Im not one of those people.

The 4g64 lower timing plate may fit ok. But its not exactly the same. The mid cover plate does not exist on a 4g64 and the top cam cover plate for the 4g64 is obviously for a single cam and wont fit on a dohc head.
Luckily these parts are still easy to find.

 

[Dericsh]

With a swap it may be different, but If it’s the same exact belt I always just go back to the “clean spot” where the old setting was. If you’re lucky enough to be able to see that, I guess. Also that assumes it wasn’t squeaking before which rules it out for you.

My point is, when the belt is new, it’s usually a good bit tighter than I would have thought as well. I suspect this is why you’re leaving it a bit loose and getting a squeak. So it’s what Hiroshi said, you just need to be recalibrated .

Let us know how that new tool works tho!

 

[DSMPT]

In the past that has led to squeaking for me. For me personally some sort of gauge is preferred.
My push strength and my eyesight can be different from anyone else's. I don't consider that a great method for checking tension.
But i get where you are coming from.

If you knew it wasn't tight enough, then why didn't you just tighten a bit more until stop squeaking? That would take just a few mins.
It didn't work because you didn't do it correctly. Applying 10kg of force by a finger is more pushing than you imagine. If you need a tool then just get a cheap tension gauge that covers 10+kg or maybe a cheap hanging weight scale should be better than using a finger.

For now i found a pen tension gauge that costs 30 bucks online, which looks like it may be ok for this.

As long as if the price is ok with you and it covers 10kg, then it should be good.

 

[alexr254]

If you knew it wasn't tight enough, then why didn't you just tighten a bit more until stop squeaking? That would take just a few mins.
It didn't work because you didn't do it correctly. Applying 10kg of force by a finger is more pushing than you imagine. If you need a tool then just get a cheap tension gauge that covers 10+kg or maybe a cheap hanging weight scale should be better than using a finger.

As long as if the price is ok with you and it covers 10kg, then it should be good.

It may have been too tight.
I messed with it too much and nothing helped. I kept guessing if the tension was at 1/4" or 22lbs.
I never guessed right.

 

[DSMPT]

It may have been too tight.

It would be safer to get a right tool if you can't distinguish if it's too loose or too tight...

I kept guessing if the tension was at 1/4" or 22lbs.

10kg is nearly equal 22lbs. And you apply that force in the middle of belt and measure how much deflection each belt has. To be very honest, I doubt if there is someone here is doing this by following the exact numbers from FSM each time when putting back the accessory belts. I believe most of us are following experience.

I messed with it too much and nothing helped.

Then could be the tension wasn't the issue.

 

[alexr254]

It would be safer to get a right tool if you can't distinguish if it's too loose or too tight...

10kg is nearly equal 22lbs. And you apply that force in the middle of belt and measure how much deflection each belt has. To be very honest, I doubt if there is someone here is doing this by following the exact numbers from FSM each time when putting back the accessory belts. I believe most of us are following experience.


Then could be the tension wasn't the issue.

Yep could be the harmonic balancer which has since been changed.

Oh welp. I turned it over for the first time since starting this project. And what happened is so typical for me.
It cranked. Didn't fire. Sounds almost like the fuel pump is not even starting.

Here is the whole scenario;
I started late (already dark and the nasty bugs are out).
Plugged in the ECU wires. Tried to get ecmlink running on the laptop but was having connection errors.
But said screw it, so i cranked it anyway.
It cranked and then battery died really quickly. . . .
Guess what? My 1 year old red top optima i got from Jegs is bad... Called AdvanceAuto and sounds like they are willing to do a test and replace it for me (with receipt from Jegs) if it comes back bad, which it will.

So to continue;
I realized after checking closer which is hard because im not a contortionist, the top plug on the ECU was not all the way in. Was wondering why the laptop was not making a connection to the obd . duh. Slapped myself on the forehead.
Ok pushed it all the way in and ecmlink connection worked. Still duh.. But yay.
Configured the fuel for the new 660cc injectors.

Then noticed a couple loose 18 gauge wires near the ECU plugs. One white, one yellow and also one pin was out. Hmmm.
Thing is i did this wiring months ago and forgot where i left off.
Eventually i figured out the 18 gauge wires were one wire from the wideband gauge and the other from the LC-2 for the wideband signal. And the loose pin is the front O2 sensor pin, which the other 2 loose wires are meant to replace. Another slap on the forehead...

Now back to why does it feel like when i cranked there was no fuel. I did do the fuel relay bypass. Its possible i forgot to put the terminal on the battery for the fuel pump. But its too dark and too late for me to go further today.
More to do tomorrow. Including a trip to AdvanceAuto for hopefully a new battery from the warranty.

 

[alexr254]

I really need some help on understanding the 1g CAS in a 2g conversion. i have read through just about every post and most point to this site
https://www.roadraceengineering.com/1gcasin2g95-96M2.html Which is very informative. But i am still confused. What plugs into what.
I am afraid i have this mis-wired and that can be causing the issue with fuel delivery. The ECU i am using is E2T61672. Which looks like it came from a 95.
The 4g63 head is a 7 bolt. Have no idea from what year.
And as you all know its a 4g64 block.


Here is a pic with all open ended plugs. The circled plugs are the only ones i know where they come from. But i am not sure where they should plug into with this setup.
The plugs not circled i have no idea what they are and i have no idea what they need to plug into.
Please help!

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[alexr254]

So the reason the fuel pump was not starting was because i screwed up one wire on the fuel pump relay while i did the fuel pump relay module bypass. Fix the issue and it started right up.
After tinkering a bit, i set it up for the front 02 wideband. Simulating narrowband. Set up for the new PTE 680cc injectors.

Now its idling nicely.

But when i press the gas down and hold it still it keeps hesitating.
RPMs up/down u/down by about 500 rpm each hesitation.

My Fuel Trim % is quite high even after getting up to running temps.
Im going to need to research ALOT more on the tuning part now.
Glad it started though! Its been a long time coming.

Maybe i have a boost leak.. Not sure yet.
At idle boost gauge is at -15. During deceleration it gets to about -20.
AFR gauge jumps from 22.4 to about 12.
AFR gauge at idle is about 14.
Seems i am running lean when accelerating. My fuel pressure gauge is at about 42 to 45psi.
I'm going to possibly raise the base fuel pressure in ecmlink just to test.
Worst case ill get me some bigger injectors, like FIC 950's.

I am also thinking something may be up with the 1g CAS. Im sure i rotated it correctly when installed while the engine was at TDC.
But the hesitation when it reaches about 2000 rpm is worrisome.

Other positives:
Its idling much smoother then it did before i did any of these upgrades.
There is no more belt squeal at idle.

 

[alexr254]

Still dealing with the fluttering issue when going soft on the throttle.
I attached my log from ecmlink hoping someone can check it out and maybe is able to point out any obvious issues that i have not been able to determine.
The TPS seems fine. .63v with engine off, .65v when running idle. Goes to 5v WOT engine off.


For now from what i have researched and from advice i have gotten, it could be these things;
Bad fuel filter
Bad MAF
Throttle body may be getting stuck
Bad CAS, or installed 180deg wrong.
--
Can this be caused by a boost or vacuum leak?
If yes, is there any commonly known leaky spots to check?
I do have a boost leak tester and a smoker. Never used them yet.
--

I am picking up a new fuel filter in the morning. I've never changed the fuel filter yet. Would not be surprised it its still the original.

I am going to install Speed Density. But i really don't want to change my Injen cold air intake. Can i leave the MAF in there unplugged? Should i hollow it out or is it ok as is?

I have a 1g throttle body that i can replace the S90 with. But that would be a huge waste of $$$ which would suck.

I'm using a green top CAS now that looks to be in rough shape. I was just recently able to get a black top that looks to be in much better condition. Im almost positive the CAS was installed in the correct orientation. So i'll just swap them out.

 

[CrackedDSM]

You can leave the mass there. 2G MAFs aren’t a physical restriction until well above your current power goals.

Also: @MindBlowin03 rebuilds S90 TBs and can tell you all about how they leak out of the box. Might could work out a trade with him to send him your current one and you pay a little on top to get one of his brand new freshly rebuilt and guaranteed to hold boost models.

 

[MindBlowin03]

Definitely do the boost leak test, you'll be surprised what you find.

The s90 will be the first leak because they are so bad you will not be able to hold even 1 psi on your gauge. They cause the most havoc at idle just because of the % of air they are allowing in/out.

If you are interested in a rebuild feel free to reach out. I have done dozens of them at this point and have yet to have a complaint.

 

[alexr254]

Definitely do the boost leak test, you'll be surprised what you find.

The s90 will be the first leak because they are so bad you will not be able to hold even 1 psi on your gauge. They cause the most havoc at idle just because of the % of air they are allowing in/out.

If you are interested in a rebuild feel free to reach out. I have done dozens of them at this point and have yet to have a complaint.

Thanks ill try to get it done asap.
My idle is fine. Its set to 850 and stays within 50rpm of that target.

I still don't quite understand how the behavior i'm seeing would have anything to do with a leaky throttle body. I would assume a leaky throttle body would show hesitation no matter how hard the throttle is pressed and at idle.
I am only seeing this behavior with a light throttle push and only when it gets up to about 1500-2000 rpms. And wont go past 2000.

But if i push the throttle hard. It jumps right past that RPM with no hesitation.

 

[alexr254]

Fuel filter changed.
Was a total pita. But done.

Started raining half way through. Didn't hook the battery back up so havent tested yet.

 

[alexr254]

A bit off topic - but by chance does anyone have a link or part number for the correct size quick bleeders to use for front and rear brake calipers?
I'm having a really hard time bleeding the brakes ever since i swapped the rear drums to dics.

Besides this, I installed the ingersoll-rand boost controller. But have not had a chance to test it yet.
Did several other minor things, mainly with interior, radio, etc.
Installed a DD Alpine radio, SiriusXM, backup camera with dynamic lines, Replaced all speakers with kicker speakers, and tweeters with bose. Using stock infinity amp.
Nice clear sound is what i am aiming for. Nothing that booms and shakes the car.

Next big thing will be to install speed density and a MAP sensor, to not need to depend on the stock MAF.

Also started shopping around for rims. Leaning towards Konig Hypergram Carbon w/ Machined Lip.

https://www.fitmentindustries.com/buy-wheel-offset/HG87514356/konig-hypergram-17x8-35

I believe that is the correct bolt pattern.

On 17x8 rims with 35mm offset, would you go with 215's, 225's, or 235 tires?

 

[DogWhistle]

On the rear discs, make sure you didn’t accidentally swap sides. The bleeder screws should be higher than the hose connection.

 

[alexr254]

On the rear discs, make sure you didn’t accidentally swap sides. The bleeder screws should be higher than the hose connection.

The caliper and backing plate set that i replaced the drums with was brand new and the calipers have an engraved L and R on them.
Although i must admit i did do it the lazy way since i didn't hook back up the E brake. This will be something i do down the road. Its an automatic transmission and i don't recall the last time i used an E brake on an auto. I use the E brake on my manual cars all the time.

To be honest im not sure how i could even mix them up because it wouldn't fit with the disc backing plate any other way..

My issue is i dont have any help for bleeding the brakes, no one to pump the brake pedal while the bleeder screw is worked.
I tried to use a vacuum bleeder with no success.
So was looking for the correct size bleeder screws so i can get some quick bleeders and give it a shot that way.

 

[alexr254]

A bit off topic - but by chance does anyone have a link or part number for the correct size quick bleeders to use for front and rear brake calipers?

Just incase anyone else finds themselves in the same situation and needs this information. The size that fit perfectly for me is M7-1.0 x 32mm.
Dorman 12708 Speed Bleeder.

I replaced the rear drums with PowerStop powder coated red calipers S1692. And rotors JBR772XL/ JBR772XR
And the front calipers with PowerStop powder coated red calipers. Kit with rotors KC120326.

 

[alexr254]

To no surprise i had another slap myself in the forehead moment, this time about the brakes.
I know how to bleed brakes and i was wondering what the heck am i doing wrong?!?! So went with the speed bleeders.
After bleeding the brakes with the speed bleeders, and it making little to no difference in braking performance i was getting a bit frustrated.
Then decided to check the brake master cylinder, brake booster, etc.. Then found the vacuum hose for the brake booster was completely disconnected.

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I hooked it up but havent had a chance to take it for a spin yet. I am 99% sure that was the problem the entire time with the brakes.
Regardless, i am glad i put in the new speed bleeders. Super easy to use for a one person brake job.

While testing the brakes after the speed bleeders were installed, i also noticed per the boost gauge i was finally getting some PSI readings from the turbo. Although it was very rough, and i did stall once. So seems the boost controller install is working, but does need some serious tuning.

I am also on the fence of replacing the S90 throttle body with a 1G throttle body i have laying around. It would really be a large waste of $ for the S90 if i take this route. But may need to.

 

[C-note89ky]

I hear nuthin but bad things about them S90 throttle bodys. Having a good 1g with no leaks should put u in a better situation.

 

[alexr254]

To no surprise i had another slap myself in the forehead moment, this time about the brakes.
I know how to bleed brakes and i was wondering what the heck am i doing wrong?!?! So went with the speed bleeders.
After bleeding the brakes with the speed bleeders, and it making little to no difference in braking performance i was getting a bit frustrated.
Then decided to check the brake master cylinder, brake booster, etc.. Then found the vacuum hose for the brake booster was completely disconnected.

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I hooked it up but havent had a chance to take it for a spin yet. I am 99% sure that was the problem the entire time with the brakes.
Regardless, i am glad i put in the new speed bleeders. Super easy to use for a one person brake job.

While testing the brakes after the speed bleeders were installed, i also noticed per the boost gauge i was finally getting some PSI readings from the turbo. Although it was very rough, and i did stall once. So seems the boost controller install is working, but does need some serious tuning.

I am also on the fence of replacing the S90 throttle body with a 1G throttle body i have laying around. It would really be a large waste of $ for the S90 if i take this route. But may need to.

After taking a short spin today i can confirm the brakes are indeed good now.
Such a dumb oversigt by me.

Now onto some tuning.
First i will follow the basic instructions for the boost controller setup on the ecmlink wiki.
If afterwards i am still having some stutter/hesitation at 2k RMPs I will most likely swap the S90 TB for the 1G TB.

Then i may look into installing speed density which i have laying around.

Paying a pro tuner to help me tune it remotely is something i think i will need as well.