springs and retainers

[TimF]

Ok I been reading for a while now. Im trying to budget build a head to make between 350-400hp. I plan on getting 272 cams (regrinds) and Want to know what would be a good option for springs and retainers. I was thinking crowers, but after all the negativity I read from them I think I will pass on those. I have been reading about Manley performance springs and retainers and people have some good things to say about those, and they are only 220$, so is that to good to be true? I also read to use evo 8 springs/retainers and they can be found fairly cheap. My car will be DD as well, but I dont floor it everywere. I plan on taking it to the track this summer. I was also considering 1mm over valves, depends on how much $ I have.

 

[agentorange313]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341209-4g63t-valve-spring-info.html

read up if you haven't already

Manley is a great option, the data on them is in the link. They are stronger than stock, quite a bit stronger, and weigh less

NOW... lets see what these things weigh.

DSM
Spring: 56.3g
Retainer: 13.7g

Evo
Spring: 39g
Retainer: 3.9g !!! HOLY ####!

Manley
Spring: 42.7g
Retainer: 8.9g

Evo springs are actually a downgrade, depends on how you look at them. Their design allows for more aggressive cams but they are actually weaker than stock DSM springs. More info on them in also in the link

DSM
Coil Bind
1.115
60
1.175 SAFE

1.560 = 68lbs
.030
1.530 = 72lbs
.410 LIFT
1.120 = 192lbs

EVO
Coil Bind
1.035
60
1.095 SAFE

Installed height general numbers (1.560) for comparison; this includes the mitsu locator given at an average value of 40.

1.560 = 65lbs
.030 shim
1.530 = 72lbs
.410 will be used to simulate cam lift
1.120 = 154lbs

MANLEY
Coil Bind
.925
60
.985 SAFE

1.560 = 78lbs
.030 shim
1.530 = 88lbs
.410
1.120 = 204lbs

Kiggly actually has a set of street springs that are awesome. They are 300, a 100 less than there regualr beehives. This is because they reuse the stock springs seats and also uses steel retainer instead of titanium. I say fork out the extra 80 for springs that can handle almost any cams.
Kiggly Racing - kigglyracing.com

 

[TimF]

Thank you, I was looking for the best one for my money and it seems that the kigglys would do it. I figured a extra 80$ for assurance is not bad.

 

[JacksonAuto]

Kiggley springs are made by PAC. Most all of the beehive springs on the market for 4G63's are the same spring. We sell them with Titanium retainers for $369.

 

[TimF]

this may be a rather stupid question, but do I have to get the block decked when I change the head gasket. I am working on a head, and just want it to be a bolt on and change the gasket, But I dont have the time or money or resources to pull the whole block out and I am on a tight budget.

 

[TrystanGST]

It depends. If you're going to use a composite gasket, you can sand it and be OK if it's not too warped. If you want to use a MLS gasket, then you'd pretty much have to get it decked.

 

[JacksonAuto]

this may be a rather stupid question, but do I have to get the block decked when I change the head gasket. I am working on a head, and just want it to be a bolt on and change the gasket, But I dont have the time or money or resources to pull the whole block out and I am on a tight budget.

Using a straight edge and a set of feeler gages, check the deck to see how badly it is warped, if at all. Lay the straight edge across the deck in several different directions. If at any point you can fit a .002" feeler gage between it and the block then you will need to strongly consider decking the block. If it passes this test then continue with the project using a composite gasket.

 

[TimF]

well thanks for the info. I hope it is not to bad.

sorry another stupid question, do I have to remove everything if I need to get the block decked?

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Thank you, I was looking for the best one for my money and it seems that the kigglys would do it. I figured a extra 80$ for assurance is not bad.

I am running the Kiggly "Steel Street" beehive springs. The retainers are are steel but they only weigh 7 grams (compared to his titanium ones which weigh 5 grams and the stock steel ones which weigh over 14 grams) which isn't bad at all.

Stock on left, Kiggly steel on right.

 

[bastarddsm]

well thanks for the info. I hope it is not to bad.

sorry another stupid question, do I have to remove everything if I need to get the block decked?

You'll need to dissassemble the entire engine to deck it for a MLS. Your best off staying with a stock style composite gasket.

Also, I'm picking up a set of the kiggly street behives. I have been running reground 272's on stock springs. Realistically you could run the reground 272's on good stock springs as long as your not winding it super high, which you shouldn't be with a bolt on turbo and stock intake.

But $300 for some of the best springs you can buy is kick ass.

 

[TimF]

Im debating on buying a block just to do a complete swap. My vavletrain have a good 120k on them at least, So new ones wont be a bad Idea. My worrys is working the block to then running out of money w/o a finished car, that is also my DD. I am just worried as well that Im going to try and swap heads, and my block may be warped. I never over heated the car, never raced it, never took it above 7k rpm (well only on one occasion) The only issue is my engine was swapped in a few years back by the owner before me when he blew his old engine, So I have not idea how it was treated before, or how many miles really are on it.

 

[bastarddsm]

If you hg is not leaking right now, your probably good.

 

[jpmxrider489]

It wont hurt to have it checked out but I wouldnt worry right now. You dont really need new springs for 272s but thats opinion over fact. I might pick up the beehive springs as well or crower.

 

[TimF]

I read that crowers are bad, and there are a lot of issues that people had with them. I know I don't need springs/retainers but I would rather have new ones with assurance they would hold rather than my 20year old ones. I don't show any signs of a HG leak, my car always starts, there is no sign of oil/coolant mixing, the only Issue I see is that whenever I fill my reservoir all my coolant gets sucked in, and does not go back out when My car cools off, but a few months ago my car would over flow my reservoir and dump all my coolant. The problems changed when I tightened a clamp, so It may be that my engine is still not full after spitting up all that old coolant.

 

[bastarddsm]

The Crower Cams Springs, BC springs, Manley springs are all the same springs. There are only a few manufacturers of springs in the country, and all the valvetrain places just get them from them. They are not fail prone springs, they are just not a whole lot stiffer than stock springs, unless you get duals. You may have to shim them to a shorter installed height to get more pressue, but they are more than adequate for a HKS style 272 grind.

So, if you know your never gonna go much past 7500, and stay with a 272 style cam, the cheap single springs from Crower, BC or Manley will be more than adequate.

If you have plans on winding it high and nasty cams, then one of the beehives would be a better choice, as they will be all the spring you will ever need.

DON'T use the EVO8/9 stuff. They are no where stiff enough for our cars. Evo8/9 have lighter weight valves, and rocker arms. Additionally, I ran into valve stem seal to retainer clearance issues with my .397" lift regrind cams. The evo retainers are too tall, and I verified this on two different heads. I only had .410" from retainer to seal. It was fine until the first time I went past 7500, and it floated all the valves. The car instantly started smoking because all the valve seals were beat apart.

 

[TimF]

Eventually when I get my whole engine rebuild, I plan on making more power out of it, for now I dont plan on taking it that high, but why not get better spring now than later? It would be better to pay a extra 80$ for spring that would work now and more down the line when I need them than pay for them now and another 300$ again later. SO if evo valves are lighter, would those be good to drop in as a upgrade for valves?

 

[romeen]

DON'T use the EVO8/9 stuff. They are no where stiff enough for our cars. Evo8/9 have lighter weight valves, and rocker arms. Additionally, I ran into valve stem seal to retainer clearance issues with my .397" lift regrind cams. The evo retainers are too tall, and I verified this on two different heads. I only had .410" from retainer to seal. It was fine until the first time I went past 7500, and it floated all the valves. The car instantly started smoking because all the valve seals were beat apart.

Assuming this is true, are there any other issues you noticed with the EVO springs/retainers? I've been using the EVO stuff with HKS 264/264 and haven't noticed any issues. My compression is a bit lower now but I also cleaned off the piston tops and combustion chambers while the head was off. I've revved to a little over 7K but not to 7500.

Eventually when I get my whole engine rebuild, I plan on making more power out of it, for now I dont plan on taking it that high, but why not get better spring now than later? It would be better to pay a extra 80$ for spring that would work now and more down the line when I need them than pay for them now and another 300$ again later. SO if evo valves are lighter, would those be good to drop in as a upgrade for valves?

EVO's use lighter exhaust valves which are sodium filled which I believe helps to keep the valves cooler. IMO, it seems that these should be an upgrade but not sure if they are worth the extra expense. I'm not completely certain but I think that EVO/DSM use the same intake valve. The "engnbldr" valves on ebay are very popular and I've heard nothing but good things about them.

 

[TimF]

Ok I was never sure about ebay valves but I will llook into them

 

[bastarddsm]

The "ebay" valves are not really an ebay valve. They are sold by Enginebuilder, I believe BogusSVO uses them quite a bit, and he likes em. They are stainless and made by EPN I believe. I think duraility wise they are just fine. I'm not a huge fan of them because the head looks pretty bulky, making them heavy and not flow as good. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've never had problems with stockers, so thats what I use.

 

[TimF]

Yea I always been skeptical about things from ebay. I was looking at either 1mm oversized, or evo valves. Not sure what I want yet.

 

[bastarddsm]

Yea I always been skeptical about things from ebay. I was looking at either 1mm oversized, or evo valves. Not sure what I want yet.

Don't bother, stay stock stay happy. Unless your looking to be in the GT35R or bigger area, bigger valves won't do you shit.

If the valves in your head are shot a good set of used evo valves wouldn't be a bad choice.

 

[TimF]

There not shot but old, You have to keep in mind this is a 21 year old engine

 

[bastarddsm]

Yeah, So? Steel, fatigues from the streses put on it, no the ages. Somewhere around 10million cycles, it gets as weak as they are going to get, about half of the original strength. I doubt valves even fatigue anywhere other than the surface area where they seal. And that "fatigued" material is removed when you grind the valves.

Now if you start floating the valves, it will fatigue the stems where the keeper groove is at, and where the head is welded to the stem. With stock cams and rev limit, its doubtful that they have ever floated.

I run stock valves and springs in my car with HKS 272's and turn it 8500. I havn't had a problem yet, but I am upgrading springs before I do.

Also, most head rebuilds reuse the stock vavles, unless the stems are wore out, or there is no margin left on the valves. Both of those are high mileage things.

 

[JacksonAuto]

Stock parts are stock parts. Whether they come from an EVO an early DSM or some parts store on eBay. The materials and quality are the same. If you're trying to increase performance and power, stock parts aren't the way to go.

Cheap valves are cheap because they're made in China. There are no regulations on materials used and there are no quality control standards. If you're building a stock head they're fine but they are most definitely not to be considered an upgrade. Manufacturing practices are shotty and imprecise and the final product is inconsistent. Performance and reliability will suffer. Most are fine for rebuilding but have no place in a modifed engine.

High quality, performance valves are more expensive for several reasons. They're not just shiny. The majority of them are made in the states and the manufacturer must adhere to guidelines regulating the type of material that was used in their construction. A common example of this is used in grading aluminum. A term you've likely heard before is T6061. When you see a component made from T6061, you can be certain of the quality of the material used. In Chinese parts, you have no idea what kind of garbage they used. The other advantage to using performance valves is the design. Performance valves will flow more air. Period. Compare the shape of any performance valve to a replacement valve. You will notice differences in the margin, shape of the face of the valve, the head of the valve can be thicker or thinner and the stems are often undercut. Every one of these aspects affects how the air flows around the valve. You can pick up a significant amount of flow by just installing a set of good valves in a head combined with performing a proper valve job. Even on an un-ported head.

I understand that not everyone has the money to plunk down for good parts, but you cannot begin to compare these cheap replacement valves and springs to good aftermarket parts and think that they're going to perform the same.

 

[donniekak]

Assuming this is true, are there any other issues you noticed with the EVO springs/retainers? I've been using the EVO stuff with HKS 264/264 and haven't noticed any issues. My compression is a bit lower now but I also cleaned off the piston tops and combustion chambers while the head was off. I've revved to a little over 7K but not to 7500.




EVO's use lighter exhaust valves which are sodium filled which I believe helps to keep the valves cooler. IMO, it seems that these should be an upgrade but not sure if they are worth the extra expense. I'm not completely certain but I think that EVO/DSM use the same intake valve. The "engnbldr" valves on ebay are very popular and I've heard nothing but good things about them.

I tested a box of 32 evo valvesprings. Only 2 of them were even close to spec for stock dsm valvesprings.

How many people that have installed the evo springs have tested them?