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Which springs and retainers??

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9!'clipseDOHC;152347683 If I wanted to go "all out" on the springs I would use the Kiggly Beehives. [/QUOTE said:
I guess our opinions of "all out" differ a bit. I would never recommend a single spring for any all out application.

When we assemble a package or recommend a component, it has been chosen because it compliments the others and will work as a combination to ensure that nothing is left on the table in terms of reliability or power. The stock Evo springs have their place but it's not with more aggressive aftermarket cams. As the duration of a cam increases, so does the steepness of the ramps. In order for the cam follower to stay in constant contact with the lobe it needs a spring with higher pressures for it to perform properly. Otherwise the follower will lose contact with the cam. As the follower passes the point of peak lift and the valve should now begin to close, the inertia actually carries the valve further open. This is known as valve loft. Then, once the spring catches up and actually does close, the follower slams into the back side of the lobe. So now you've got a valve that has opened further than it's supposed to be which puts it dangerously close to hitting the piston and you have a follower beating up the camshafts. Because larger cams also tend to close the valve much more aggressively, this will give the valve a higher propensity to bounce. When it slams shut against the seat, a weak spring will often allow it to bounce right back up off the seat. In addition to bleeding off compression and costing you power this action absolutely destroys every component of your valve train. A weak spring will also allow the valves to float. At higher RPM's, the valve spring simply cannot open and close fast enough so you end up with a situation very similar to valve loft whereby the follower cannont maintain contact with the cam. Also, the stock springs were not designed to tolerate higher lift. Also, as a spring is compressed it generates heat. The closer a spring gets to approaching coil bind, the more heat it generates. As it begins to overheat it's pressures change and if this happens just once the the tension is gone.

Valve loft, float and bounce are where bent/dropped valves come from. You also end up with beat up seats that don't seal and give you bad leakdown and compression numbers. Cams will wear out quicker. These problems also cause noises that the lifters usually get blamed for. Ever hear someone say they upgraded to 3g lifters but the noise didn't go away? Many times it's because they've got the wrong combination of parts rattling away inside the head and it's got nothing to do with lifters. Will it run with stock springs? Yes, for a period of time. However, they cannot maintain proper geometry and dyanamins which means you will sacrifice power and you will experience premature failures.

This is what happens when you put a hodge-podge of parts together that were never designed or intended to be used with one another. Often recommended by someone on a forum that has no business giving out advice.

I can't speak for you, but we're drawing from 80 years of combined experience here at the shop building and racing high performance engines. I'm not sure why you've got a problem with us but please, if you feel the need to argue the point further, please take it to PM's. I'm here to help you guys out not argue about a $25 price difference in a set of springs or have you tell my why my recommendation of them was wrong.
 
I have the JAM springs/retainers. If i was to use any other brand it would only be supertech duals or the kigglys beehives. FP have great results but just the thought using the stock heavy retainers scares me. From what i have seen JAM aernt as famous in DSMs as they are in evos. Go on over to EVOm.net many people pushing these springs with AGRESSIVE cams, such as Kelford 272's, or the HKS 280's all the way to 9 grand. My setup will use kelford 272's.
 
The stock evo retainer is aluminum and I've seen comparisons where it is actually lighter than the manley titanium retainer. Lighter components play a major roll in valve events. I will be using gsc beehives w/ STOCK evo retainers on kelford 272's regardless. I'm not deterred by the aluminum retainers one bit.
 
well first, like on any build.. what budget do you have to work with?

From what I have read, JAM has a top shelf product, No doubt there.

also I doubt your used oe springs are worth a flip, most that I have tested are way below service spec... think of how many times they have been worked over the years and the miles they have on them.

here is some more spring info .......

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341209-4g63t-valve-spring-info.html
 
I guess our opinions of "all out" differ a bit. I would never recommend a single spring for any all out application.

Yes I guess they do. I wouldn't consider the OP wanting to run 264/272 cams as "all out". That is why I was questioning your recommendation. I am not trying to insult you in anyway. I stated that for 264/272 cams a single spring with titanium retainers should be more then enough. Is this incorrect?

The comment I made about "all out" was in regards to the Kiggly beehives which I was not recommending to the OP. I was comparing them to the PAC beehives that you listed. Are they not comparable?

Also in regards to the $25, if you look at my reasons for liking the Kiggly beehives, price has nothing to do with it. I was just correcting your earlier statements about their price.

I do not have 80 years of experience in anything. Please correct me if I am wrong in my above assumptions.
 
Here is a photo of a stock retainer that was used with a set of the aftermarket conical springs. What you can't see from the photo is how the keepers were pulling through the retainer. The installed height of the spring was increased by .030" as a result and this decreases the spring pressure and wreaks havoc on the geometry.

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...This is what happens when you put a hodge-podge of parts together that were never designed or intended to be used with one another. Often recommended by someone on a forum that has no business giving out advice...
This advice is usually given by DSMers that have First Hand Experience in using these "Hodge Podge" set ups that work well on a budget. Most of your street driven DSM's use a # of Hodge Podge parts, IE: GM maf, Supra SMIC, FD wheels, Supra fuel pump, evo springs/retainers, Cadillac CTS-V brake calipers, cummins/holset turbos, Saturn alternator, just to name a few of the hodge podge parts that are proven for certain levles of performance. There is always something better out there and better designed/engineered, but DSMs are tipically a budget minded car. I'm sure Sean Glazar's car didn't have any used parts from other product lines when you built his engine, but that's another ball game. For a mild build, a lot of the cheaper parts will work fine, but some times yes there are chances you take.
 
OP, FWIW I am using stock EVO springs/retainers with HKS 264/264. I only have a few thousand miles on them so I can't really comment on how they will hold up in the long run. But I will say that my car revs up noticeably faster and smoother than it did with the stock springs/retainers. This comparison is with stock 1G cams and only changing the springs/retainers.

The EVO retainers are ridiculously light. Almost hard to believe until you actually hold one in your hand.
 
OP, FWIW I am using stock EVO springs/retainers with HKS 264/264. I only have a few thousand miles on them so I can't really comment on how they will hold up in the long run. But I will say that my car revs up noticeably faster and smoother than it did with the stock springs/retainers. This comparison is with stock 1G cams and only changing the springs/retainers.

The EVO retainers are ridiculously light. Almost hard to believe until you actually hold one in your hand.

Truth.
 
I would go with Manley srprings and the Ti retainers. If you look at the specs, Manley is one of the stiffest single conical springs out there. There is more than one post on this site that states the BC springs have broken and ruined a head on cams that weren"t that aggressive. I run 264/272 profile with Manley's and have never had a bad valve event. If not Manley, then beehive is the best option.
 
Definitely not spending anywhere close to $300 for springs and retainers.
Im not making a beast just rebuilding due to nasty oil leaks and shot rings.
And since the head will be out, might as well squeeze some juice out.
Anyways, after talking to the guys over at RRE i decided to stick with the stock springs and retainers.
If anything ill just go with a set of 264/264, since laws here in Cali are tight as f$$%!
And if pulled over, well yeah. :)
Thanks to all the input.
 
Definitely not spending anywhere close to $300 for springs and retainers.
Im not making a beast just rebuilding due to nasty oil leaks and shot rings.
And since the head will be out, might as well squeeze some juice out.
Anyways, after talking to the guys over at RRE i decided to stick with the stock springs and retainers.
If anything ill just go with a set of 264/264, since laws here in Cali are tight as f$$%!
And if pulled over, well yeah. :)
Thanks to all the input.

You are welcome! Sorry if things got a little off topic. Good luck on your build!

Also you can mark this thread as resolved under thread tools. :thumb:
 
I guess our opinions of "all out" differ a bit. I would never recommend a single spring for any all out application.

When we assemble a package or recommend a component, it has been chosen because it compliments the others and will work as a combination to ensure that nothing is left on the table in terms of reliability or power. The stock Evo springs have their place but it's not with more aggressive aftermarket cams. As the duration of a cam increases, so does the steepness of the ramps. In order for the cam follower to stay in constant contact with the lobe it needs a spring with higher pressures for it to perform properly. Otherwise the follower will lose contact with the cam. As the follower passes the point of peak lift and the valve should now begin to close, the inertia actually carries the valve further open. This is known as valve loft. Then, once the spring catches up and actually does close, the follower slams into the back side of the lobe. So now you've got a valve that has opened further than it's supposed to be which puts it dangerously close to hitting the piston and you have a follower beating up the camshafts. Because larger cams also tend to close the valve much more aggressively, this will give the valve a higher propensity to bounce. When it slams shut against the seat, a weak spring will often allow it to bounce right back up off the seat. In addition to bleeding off compression and costing you power this action absolutely destroys every component of your valve train. A weak spring will also allow the valves to float. At higher RPM's, the valve spring simply cannot open and close fast enough so you end up with a situation very similar to valve loft whereby the follower cannont maintain contact with the cam. Also, the stock springs were not designed to tolerate higher lift. Also, as a spring is compressed it generates heat. The closer a spring gets to approaching coil bind, the more heat it generates. As it begins to overheat it's pressures change and if this happens just once the the tension is gone.

Valve loft, float and bounce are where bent/dropped valves come from. You also end up with beat up seats that don't seal and give you bad leakdown and compression numbers. Cams will wear out quicker. These problems also cause noises that the lifters usually get blamed for. Ever hear someone say they upgraded to 3g lifters but the noise didn't go away? Many times it's because they've got the wrong combination of parts rattling away inside the head and it's got nothing to do with lifters. Will it run with stock springs? Yes, for a period of time. However, they cannot maintain proper geometry and dyanamins which means you will sacrifice power and you will experience premature failures.

This is what happens when you put a hodge-podge of parts together that were never designed or intended to be used with one another. Often recommended by someone on a forum that has no business giving out advice.

I can't speak for you, but we're drawing from 80 years of combined experience here at the shop building and racing high performance engines. I'm not sure why you've got a problem with us but please, if you feel the need to argue the point further, please take it to PM's. I'm here to help you guys out not argue about a $25 price difference in a set of springs or have you tell my why my recommendation of them was wrong.

Well said:thumb: Most guys will say i am not paying that much for this part or that part and will at the same time complain that a cheaper part did not work out. More often than not you get what you pay for The key is balance for a particular power level or Hp goal:cool:
 
Would the jam behive springs and retainers be ok to rev 9k on kelford 280 cams?
 
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