2G Quarter Master Twin Disc 6 bolt with 2g transmission

[97Gb]

I need help... 3 mechanics and 3 engines later im stuck.

Components:
-6 bolt engine
-2g transmission
-Quartermaster 8-Leg Street Clutch Kit | 1989-1992 DSM 6-Bolt

Ive eaten through 3 sets of bearings. First set was we thought the engine just needed rebuilt. Second set, ACLs are having bearing failures, Third set (currently still in the car) we are thinking it is the clutch.

Original mechanic that installed the clutch says he followed the QM instructions and installed it. Second engine, another mechanic (because the first one gave up on it) said he installed it properly. Third engine same mechanic because it was thought he built it incorrectly and was being nice said that now he thinks the clutch is the common denominator and he wants me to trash this $2200 Clutch and get an ACT or something easier to install.

What am I missing?
I have a pedal stop.
The pedal is adjusted just barely off the floor for engagement to allow to as little pressure of the thrust bearing as possible.
The clutch fork is moveable in the engine bay.
My end play is within tolerance.
The clutch does drag the engine down about 100-150 rpm, but I was told they dont know why because everything seems correct.
I have the clutch switch disconnected so I can start the car without the clutch in.

What would cause the clutch and clearance to be correct but then my bearings to be destroyed?

Each time this has happened, the car only has about 150 miles on it. So something is terribly wrong but no one knows what is wrong and everyone is pointing fingers at someone else.

Does anyone have a detailed step by step installed on a 6bolt QM going to a 2g trans?

Im at a loss and so are 3 different mechanics from 3 different shops.

Any help is appreciated.

I dont need any "Want it done right? Do it yourself." Comments.

If you figure this out, ill send you feet pics or a cookie or something.

 

[ty4g63t]

I had a 2g trans on my 1g 6 bolt and had continual issues switched back to a 1g trans and they all went away. Couldnt tell you why exactly but was just my exp. We tried everything from new slave clutch pedal clutch transfer case and various other odds and ends. Again couldnt say exactly why but that was just the way mine went

 

[jdxnc]

I had a 2g trans on my 1g 6 bolt and had continual issues switched back to a 1g trans and they all went away. Couldnt tell you why exactly but was just my exp. We tried everything from new slave clutch pedal clutch transfer case and various other odds and ends. Again couldnt say exactly why but that was just the way mine went

It's not the fact that was a 2g trans, my bet is the input shaft was bent, you solved it by switching trans.

I'm leading to this as OP's issue as well. The clutch is very unlikely the cause. It's very important when building the engine to "set" the thrust in place by tapping the end if the crank with a deadblow hammer before the mains are fully torqued down, this makes sure they are fully parallel to the crank. This could be one cause but I don't think it's te cause.

Get the trans input shaft measured for bend, this can easily happen from hanging the trans off the input shaft during install/removal.

 

[ty4g63t]

It's not the fact that was a 2g trans, my bet is the input shaft was bent, you solved it by switching trans.

I'm leading to this as OP's issue as well. The clutch is very unlikely the cause. It's very important when building the engine to "set" the thrust in place by tapping the end if the crank with a deadblow hammer before the mains are fully torqued down, this makes sure they are fully parallel to the crank. This could be one cause but I don't think it's te cause.

Get the trans input shaft measured for bend, this can easily happen from hanging the trans off the input shaft during install/removal.

Thank you for the info!

 

[97Gb]

Thank you both!

Anything else that might be the issue? I talked with QM yesterday and they are absolutely shocked saying that this has never happened in the 22 years that the guy has worked there.

Here is my download from that call:
Just got off the phone with Quartermaster.

He said there is absolutely nothing special about installing their twin disc verse others.

As long as the clearance is correct, that is all you need.

He did say you might need the clutch fork shaved down or buy one from TMZ/STM but that shouldn't effect the bearings.

He said with how grippy the clutch is and the RPMs dropping the clutch is installed wrong.

He said the street organic material should be way more forgiving.

He also said the rattle should be more intense than it currently is. He said it shouldn't sound like an ACT jingle bells, but it should be pretty significant and the fact than mine is not rattling that much means the tolerances are too tight.

He also said the best way to set up the pedal stop is to find where the pedal just barely disengages the clutch and then go 1/4-inch more and step the stop right there.

He said The Red Demon from BoostinPerformance uses Quartermaster and helped develop it and they have never had this issue.

 

[miliman13]

What’s the axial displacement?
Sounds like the block possible assuming this doesn’t go away with any other clucth

 

[97Gb]

What’s the axial displacement?
Sounds like the block possible assuming this doesn’t go away with any other clucth

Hey @miliman13
i have used 3 different blocks. So i dont think it has to do with the block?

Could you elaborate on axial displacement? Do you mean how long is the throw of the clutch? Or are you asking about crankshaft end play?

 

[1cleangsx]

3 different blocks, same front cover/oil pump? Did you mention balance shafts or deleted? Have you verified oil pressure on each engine?

 

[miliman13]

Hey I ment the crankshaft endplay but clearly it’s not related when the blocks were all different.

I’m at a loss haven’t experienced anything like this before and from your observation it does appear it’s due to the specific clucth kit in question.

 

[1cleangsx]

If you’re smoking bearings that’s what I would question, which bearings are the worst? The mains? The rod bearings? The thrust bearing? You NEED to know…

Also is this an aftermarket crank by chance?

 

[97Gb]

@1cleangsx
Balance shaft is deleted.
Can you expand on the front cover and oil pump situation you are mentioning? What am I looking for with those?
My stock oil pressure gauge works, but I know those aren't super accurate, but it shows i have great oil pressure according to that gauge.

Stock crank. Standard size.
I was toasting the thrust and there was one main that was pretty burnt as well.

I would love any resources you could point me to. I appreciate you taking time to respond!

 

[1cleangsx]

I was curious if each engine used the same front cover/oil pump, and if you’ve checked out the oil pump gears, how do they look? Are the clearances in spec? Also was the same crank used on each engine? I’ve never re built/blue printed an engine before, but usually it seems if your repeatedly spinning bearings you have an oiling issue, or the clearances on the bearings weren’t right, if your not the one assembling the short block your at the mercy of assuming the guy who is building it knows what he’s doing, maybe it’s a bad crank? I would maybe look for a used or freshly rebuilt block, @rix racing usually has rebuilt short blocks that I believe he personally tears down and inspects before listing them. And in regards to the clutch I would also keep it, that shouldn’t be the issue, and assuming if you haven’t already I’d disconnect the clutch switch so you can start the car without the clutch and give the thrust bearing a break

 

[diambo4life]

Have a machine shop check your crank to make sure it' straight. Do you have photos of the failures?

 

[97Gb]

Have a machine shop check your crank to make sure it' straight. Do you have photos of the failures?

Here are the photos of the bearings on the previous replacement. I havent replaced the current ones yet.

I was curious if each engine used the same front cover/oil pump, and if you’ve checked out the oil pump gears, how do they look? Are the clearances in spec? Also was the same crank used on each engine? I’ve never re built/blue printed an engine before, but usually it seems if your repeatedly spinning bearings you have an oiling issue, or the clearances on the bearings weren’t right, if your not the one assembling the short block your at the mercy of assuming the guy who is building it knows what he’s doing, maybe it’s a bad crank? I would maybe look for a used or freshly rebuilt block, @rix racing usually has rebuilt short blocks that I believe he personally tears down and inspects before listing them. And in regards to the clutch I would also keep it, that shouldn’t be the issue, and assuming if you haven’t already I’d disconnect the clutch switch so you can start the car without the clutch and give the thrust bearing a break

@1cleangsx
The engine builder said he checked the gears and cleaned the housing and made sure it was good to go. He also checked and drilled out to clean the #4 oil passage to make sure the machine shop didnt plug it.
This is a second crank. So two different cranks.
Each block was taken to a machine shop and fully redone. New pistons. New rods. New bearings with the correct clearances (even a on the looser side).

I have 3 solid mechanics telling me to get the Quartermaster out of the car.

I just had one of the original mechanics measure the clutch clearances and he said, "the fork moves like it should and the clearances are perfect. Get that QM out of there!"

Yes, the clutch switch is disconnected so I do not have to use the clutch pedal on start up.

I even have a pedal stop on the clutch pedal to help...

My engine builder is very well known locally for his 4g63s. He is who everyone recommends. He has dozens (or more) engines out there running 800+hp without any issues. He told me he will not touch the car until I agree to get rid of the QM.

Im so sick of this car I could puke.

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[1cleangsx]

Well shoot it looks like the quartermaster is the common denominator, I guess ditch the clutch

 

[Tiki2777]

The pedal is adjusted just barely off the floor for engagement to allow to as little pressure of the thrust bearing as possible.

This statement bothers me....I'm assuming you worded this incorrectly or maybe I'm misinterpreting this.
If what you typed means that your clutch is ENGAGING (Grabbing) very low in the pedal travel (close to the floor).... that is NOT good, that would indicate your clutch is dragging.

 

[97Gb]

This statement bothers me....I'm assuming you worded this incorrectly or maybe I'm misinterpreting this.
If what you typed means that your clutch is ENGAGING (Grabbing) very low in the pedal travel (close to the floor).... that is NOT good, that would indicate your clutch is dragging.

The clutch is not dragging. The car does not move with the car in neutral and clutch disengaged, the slave is in working condition and not causing the clutch the to engage. The pedal is just adjusted to right off the floor. Quartermaster even suggests the engagement to be around 1 to 2 inches off the floor, which it is.
Thank you!

 

[chrisman287]

I wonder if a Kiggly girdle could help this situation

 

[DogWhistle]

Three different engine blocks, but two items remain the same; the clutch and the transmission. It's like the solution is in plain view.

1G engine. 2G transmission. 1G clutch. Your Profile says the car had a (Canadian) 2.4L in it when you bought it. Did you put a different transmission in it, or was the 2G transmission in it and you kept it when you put in the 6 bolt? Trans model information/compatibility and possible history of abuse would be good things to look closely at.

You said in the first post "The clutch does drag the engine down about 100-150 rpm, but I was told they dont know why because everything seems correct." Who is 'they'? Are you referring to the rpm of disengaged vs. engaged at idle? If so, there will be a slight rpm difference, but >10% change seems like a lot of internal drag by the trans. Have the shops checked the transmission for the bent shaft as Drew asked?

If you've tried 3 engine blocks and are having the same result, at least change the clutch or the transmission to eliminate the possibility of one of those two being the culprit.

It's so frustrating when the parts should work and then they don't. We've had, and probably will again have, that situation in the future. We're grateful for the collective input of the members here.

 

[97Gb]

Three different engine blocks, but two items remain the same; the clutch and the transmission. It's like the solution is in plain view.

1G engine. 2G transmission. 1G clutch. Your Profile says the car had a (Canadian) 2.4L in it when you bought it. Did you put a different transmission in it, or was the 2G transmission in it and you kept it when you put in the 6 bolt? Trans model information/compatibility and possible history of abuse would be good things to look closely at.

You said in the first post "The clutch does drag the engine down about 100-150 rpm, but I was told they dont know why because everything seems correct." Who is 'they'? Are you referring to the rpm of disengaged vs. engaged at idle? If so, there will be a slight rpm difference, but >10% change seems like a lot of internal drag by the trans. Have the shops checked the transmission for the bent shaft as Drew asked?

If you've tried 3 engine blocks and are having the same result, at least change the clutch or the transmission to eliminate the possibility of one of those two being the culprit.

It's so frustrating when the parts should work and then they don't. We've had, and probably will again have, that situation in the future. We're grateful for the collective input of the members here.

@DogWhistle
Good call outs. The car no longer has the 2.4L. It has a 2.0 6bolt with a 2g trans. Now that your brought this up... I have a potentially stupid question.. Does the 2g transmission mate directly to the 2.4L?

The clutch for lack of a better term creates load on the engine when the clutch pedal is pushed in disengaging the clutch. Yes, I am comparing the Idle RPM to the RPM when the clutch is disengaged. "They" are 3 different reputable mechanics. When we rebuild this next engine, I'll have them check the shaft of the transmission.

The clutch was $2,400 and EVERYONE was saying it cannot be the clutch because Quartermaster is in the Red Demon and MANY other DSMs. I have talked to SOOO many people about my combination and they literally say people run QMs in cars like mine with zero problems.

I agree. For the most part people have been trying their best to help me! It is a great community. I just wish I could at least have a LITTLE fun with the car before it breaks. 3 engines and going on a 4th and I've driven in less than 1000 miles.

I wonder if a Kiggly girdle could help this situation

I have a brand new Kiggly "Main girdle." Part Number 1910.

 

[DogWhistle]

@DogWhistle
Good call outs. The car no longer has the 2.4L. It has a 2.0 6bolt with a 2g trans. Now that your brought this up... I have a potentially stupid question.. Does the 2g transmission mate directly to the 2.4L?

The clutch for lack of a better term creates load on the engine when the clutch pedal is pushed in disengaging the clutch. Yes, I am comparing the Idle RPM to the RPM when the clutch is disengaged. "They" are 3 different reputable mechanics. When we rebuild this next engine, I'll have them check the shaft of the transmission.

It sounds like you’re zeroing in on it.

The 2.4L does have its own automatic transmission with different gear ratios, but we haven’t noticed if the 2.4L in an Eclipse had the option of a manual trans. Is it possible the transmission came out of a Galant or other model?

Above, @ty4g63t said he switched back to a 1G trans and his problems, similar to yours, went away, so maybe there are shaft length or case depth differences.

Please let us know what you find out.

 

[99eclipsegs-2t]

It sounds like you’re zeroing in on it.

The 2.4L does have its own automatic transmission with different gear ratios, but we haven’t noticed if the 2.4L in an Eclipse had the option of a manual trans. Is it possible the transmission came out of a Galant or other model?

Above, @ty4g63t said he switched back to a 1G trans and his problems, similar to yours, went away, so maybe there are shaft length or case depth differences.

Please let us know what you find out.

my '99 Spyder has the 2.4L and it came stock with a manual transmission, if this helps at all?

 

[DogWhistle]

my '99 Spyder has the 2.4L and it came stock with a manual transmission, if this helps at all?

Yes, it is good to know. If you can get the numbers off the transmission case, it may be helpful to @97Gb to help determine which trans his car currently has.

 

[99eclipsegs-2t]

Yes, it is good to know. If you can get the numbers off the transmission case, it may be helpful to @97Gb to help determine which trans his car currently has.

The transmission in my car is a f5m31 transmission. The turbo models got the f5m33.

 

[DogWhistle]

Any progress on this problem? Did you find a combination of flywheel and clutch that works?