Quarter Master Clutch - Sneek Peek Prototype design twin-disk!

[twicks69]

Tim what fuel are you using?

The dyno session was primarilly done on VP Q16 Race fuel.

The pump gas tune made 615AWHP or so at 30psi. It was then tuned in for VP Q16 and did 640AWHP at 30psi.

 

[Black94DSM]

What kind of pump gas?

 

[twicks69]

Here's some more photos.

 

[twicks69]

Here are some dyno numbers and photos:

 

[jwcardy]

mmm looks like a tight fit
-wes

 

[Slippi84]

That thing is a sleeper and a half. All go no show yet still looking clean is def what makes a dsm a dsm in my book

 

[twicks69]

What kind of pump gas?

93 Octane was used for the first pull's tune.


My normal "pump gas" is Rockett 111-octane or Turbo Blue 110 or Sunoco 111 just for safety.

 

[andy4g63]

Excellent results, Tim... Do you still have your old fuel set-up???? Wallbro in tank, feeds Wallbro in line? How is the responsivness of the new turbo and overall driveability with the 2.3 on the street???

One thing, that I for sure learned about these turbos/BW; Holset/, is they need boost and I am saying not 25-30 PSI, but way more to make good power, which sadly can be achieved on race gas only.
At what boost level, you you made the 740AWHP on GT4088???
Basically, like Sean said you are into 900+HP category. Good luck...

P.S. Car looks killer and is absolutely sleeper. I liked your black rims more though... Seems like you got nice tires/TOYO's/ from what I can see. How they holding up? Thanks, Andy.

 

[twicks69]

Excellent results, Tim... Do you still have your old fuel set-up???? Wallbro in tank, feeds Wallbro in line? How is the responsivness of the new turbo and overall driveability with the 2.3 on the street???

One thing, that I for sure learned about these turbos/BW; Holset/, is they need boost and I am saying not 25-30 PSI, but way more to make good power, which sadly can be achieved on race gas only.
At what boost level, you you made the 740AWHP on GT4088???
Basically, like Sean said you are into 900+HP category. Good luck...

P.S. Car looks killer and is absolutely sleeper. I liked your black rims more though... Seems like you got nice tires/TOYO's/ from what I can see. How they holding up? Thanks, Andy.

Andy, don't worry, these are just my street rims with an old set of beat up Old-Skool Falken Azenis before they crapped on the tire design with the drifter scene. These are old auto-cross tires; 245/40/R17's on 17 x 7.5 Rota Subzeros in slate gray. I still have my other drag tire setup with the flat black 16 x 7 Rota Slipstreams with the 26x9x16 Hoosier QTP's. When you are on the dyno, you want to have a higher durometer and stiffer sidewall tire as the dyno can really overload a tire and destroy a slick very quickly from the friction/heat/load from being strapped down.

The current fuel setup that maxed out the pumps was a Walbro 255HP in-tank with AN-6 line to a Walbro 255HP in-line to Aeromotive fuel filter to rail with 1350cc injectors to AN-6 return to firewall.

I will effectively be doubling the pump setup and running dual hardwire setups for dual pumps.

Each dual pump setup gets an independent 8-gauge power wire to the 5-prong 2-signal relay with 10-gauge to each pump for power and 8-gauge grounds. There is a 60A in-line fuse from the battery to the relay, and each fuel pump has its own in-line 30A fuse assembly.

The two feed lines will then feed into each end of the fuel rail with a center return line back to the regulator.


I did have some problems on the dyno throughout the session concerning the Jay Racing alternator relocation bracketry and the Jay Racing water pump -20AN reusable fitting/thread-in o-ring plug. The alternator bracketry uses a spacer plate between the front bracket and the power steering pump bracket to move the power steering assembly ~0.700" towards the drivers side to utilize the outer water pump pulley and outer crank pulley to drive the power steering pump and use it as the tensioner for that belt (a 44.5" belt). Unfortunately, the kit deletes the third mounting point along the driver side of the power steering bracket and causes the entire assembly to tweek and it throws the power steering/water pump belt very easily -- which it did several times, including shredding one. We ended up fabbing a new power steering bracket on the fly and offset the stock bracket bolt holes 0.700" to move the bracket towards the drivers-side and needed to add material onto the existing bracket and mill new mounting points and access points. We also lathed up a 0.700"-thick piece of 7/8" diameter aluminum roundstock and milled it for a M8x1.25mm bolt that was long enough to accomodate the extra spacer between the power steering bracket and the block bracket. Once it was completed, we were able to use a 44.5" or 45" belt (5040445 or 5040450 would be the associated belt part numbers) to properly tension it and have it withstand the abuse we were doing with the car without failure, AFTER we noticed my water pump outer pulley also had sustained damage and was bent, requiring replacement. We ended up using a 1G outer water pump pulley as it has a thicker lip on the pulley and is the same thickness and diameter.

As well, the water pump bolt-on -20AN forward facing adaptor is a very nice piece as it makes it possible to reuse it on more than one water pump, BUT it has leakage issues out of the o-ring sealing plug (very minor leakage).

We also used two different radiator caps (both 0.9-BAR) and both leaked even with a safety wire/spring attached. SO, I am going to purchase a new 1G upper water neck, weld on a -20AN fitting and chop off the radiator cap flange and weld on a GM radiator cap flange as they are beefier and have a very wide range of pressure ratings for their radiator caps.

Other than that, I had a tiny leak from my passenger side axle seal as it was reused instead of replaced when I had the transmission out. I should have replaced it and now I have to spend a few minutes draining the transmission, pulling the axle and installing a new axle seal. Simple work, but it could have been much easier just fixing it while the transmission was out of the car this year.

Overall impressions, I feel that the engine is extremely healthy and there is alot left in the tune and the turbo. I feel confident that I can dial this turbo in over time to make over 900AWHP with substantially more dyno tuning. Heck, I don't even think we did a dozen full pulls. Normally I do more than 50 pulls at a dyno session. It may require a better ignition system as well as VP Import fuel, but I feel it could be accomplished with Q16 as well. For sure, the fuel pump assembly design will be necessary to go to the next level. I also think I will need more than my current 1350cc FIC Bluemax injectors, but I will continue to use them to find their maximum power rating with a very well-designed overkill fuel system.

Intake air temps were still fantastic with the setup, and the FMIC and SMIM were at or below ambient temperatures throughout the day. At the highest, we saw AIT's in the 90's. All we were running were two shop fans and the one 11" radiator fan on my car. On the drive home at freeway cruising speeds, the coolant temps were stable at 180-185 degrees and the AIT's were 80's with an ambient temperature of 68-70 degrees.

The 5" Intake pipe and air filter are doing their job perfectly.

Other limitations with the current setup:
*2.5" IC piping and a 60mm 1G turbo throttle body could probably be larger to see slightly larger gains.
*1.1 A/R T4 housing could be swapped for a 1.0 A/R T4 housing for quicker spoolup and longer powerband.
*Ignition system is potentially questionable and will try a CDI ignition to see if it fixes the random ignition misfires as the tune is dead-on. I actually think the misfire issues are coming from the Odyssey PC680 battery though as the misfires were in conjunction with less than 13V at the battery.
*Could use larger cams than I currently have. They are high-lift customs with ~280-290 duration (at comparable specifications to the other manufacturers numbers). They also have around .030" more lift than the HKS 288's. Either way, it could use a bit more. They were a great matchup for the GT4088R on my last motor.
*I need to finish the parachute and cage stuff as this car is damn fast!



As for the turbo streetability, well....if you consider full boost around 6000rpm streetable, then yes. Otherwise, I would recommend a small turbo with a ball-bearing center section if you want a more streetable car. For example, the GT4088R was almost 2000rpm faster spoolup to full boost than the BW S374. The speed of spoolup is substantially slower on the thrust bearing turbo, and is much more linear of an increase in boost. The GT4088R was extremely quick to spool and ramped up boost VERY VERY FAST, and resulted in many broken transmissions from the very high torque numbers that are associated with 50psi of boost at 5Krpm. The BW turbo is much smoother (good and bad) resulting in less torque and less drivetrain shockload, resulting in me NOT breaking a transmission or three on the dyno this session. I am currently running the stock 270-degree thrust bearing and I will upgrade to the Bullseye 360-degree thrust bearing this winter for increased durability, as I am fully aware that I will be in the 50-60psi range to make the power levels I am intending to do. Above 50psi, I will likely be limited to using VP import and a good ignition. I will run Q16 up to 50psi and see where it gets me; more than likely in the high 8xx's AWHP.

It all takes time, and I am a patient person when it comes to this. It took me over a year and a half to get the most power out of my GT4088R setup as it went from 641AWHP tune all the way to 766AWHP tune. The GT4088R made 613AWHP/500TQ on 30psi, and 766AWHP at 42psi, so it is real close for peak power to the BW at these lower boost levels. The torque is substantially lower with the BW mainly due to the fact that it is substantially larger and we are not in its peak efficiency range yet. We should be able to make over 700TQ again, but at at higher boost levels. It really is hard to compare the GT4088R to the BW S374; they are completely different turbos with completely different duties -- one is a street turbo, and one is a race-only turbo. The GT4088R has a huge average HP/TQ powerband from 4000rpm to 8500rpm, while the BW S374 is lazy until 6000rpm and then makes huge power from 6000rpm to 9000rpm+. It will likely be next year before I reach my goal, and I was fully aware of that walking into it -- reaching goals like this doesn't happen overnight -- especially for normal people like you and me.

If you want streetability, I would say 2.3L with GT4088R would be the pinnacle of it with peak power from 4000rpm-8600rpm and crazy spoolup/torque and overall powerband. It was the most ideal setup that I keep telling myself I will revert back to when I am done with big turbos as it was the most fun and the most streetable. I would classify the Borg Warner S374 as too large to be a street turbo on cars where the owners like to have a usable powerband in the 2000-5000rpm area, as that is now completely gone in 1st-3rd gear. It still drives fine, but the throttle response definitely isn't a 16G

 

[dsmmatt28]

Twicks is you block oring or head? What HG are you using? Im assuming L19s are the head stud of your choice?

 

[twicks69]

Twicks is you block oring or head? What HG are you using? Im assuming L19s are the head stud of your choice?

I am using the smaller 7-bolt 11mm ARP L19 head studs (since I am a 7-bolt block), a Mitsubishi OEM Multi-Layer-Steel head gasket, and no o-ring block or head. Just nice fresh machined surfaces and a quality head gasket with quality head studs works just fine. It has for the last 6 years of doing this.

 

[twicks69]

Here is a rudimentary 1st-grader Photoshop drawing of my fuel system modifications to come. Sorry for the MS Paint-like quality, but I think you all can get what I am doing from it.

 

[habitatguy187]

It may require VP Import fuel, but I feel it could be accomplished with Q16 as well.

Intake air temps were still fantastic with the setup, and the FMIC and SMIM were at or below ambient temperatures throughout the day. At the highest, we saw AIT's in the 90's.

Above 50psi, I will likely be limited to using VP import and a good ignition. I will run Q16 up to 50psi and see where it gets me; more than likely in the high 8xx's AWHP.

Would meth injection help at this level? I see that your intake temps are low but does it extend beyond something such as temps at this point?

 

[1fastlaser]

Looks great Tim, Look forward to see this sucker go down the track. I hear ya on the big turbo thing though. When I get tired of a big turbo, Im acually gonna jump on one of those 6262s for my 2.4. I think that would be one fun street car.

 

[twicks69]

Would meth injection help at this level? I see that your intake temps are low but does it extend beyond something such as temps at this point?

I am way past meth injection. Either I use nitrous, or change to straight methanol -- and the second choice is not an option as the new motor is a gasoline motor.

Intake air temps are not an issue, it is mainly for preventing detonation at 50-60psi.

 

[Slippi84]

Twick for you I would just suggest going to the mechanical pump setup like I am. You won't have to worry about all that piping and complex fuel setup. The price will be a little more but you will never have to upgrade again and it's a proven to be a reliable means of supplying fuel to the engine. All the real fast guys except maybe Kevin were running one at englistown

 

[twicks69]

Twick for you I would just suggest going to the mechanical pump setup like I am. You won't have to worry about all that piping and complex fuel setup. The price will be a little more but you will never have to upgrade again and it's a proven to be a reliable means of supplying fuel to the engine. All the real fast guys except maybe Kevin were running one at englistown

I was looking at this as an option in the past, but I felt I could do it easier and cheaper than the mechanical by utilizing the quad setup I described.

All I need to do is drill and tap a billet rail for a return fitting, and install the other fuel pump setup. It is only around $450 for the rest of the things needed to do it, and I can keep my current fuel pressure regulator. The mechanical setup is around $1600-2000 depending on what pump you use, injectors, rail, drive system, ORB fittings and line, etc.

This setup would be capable of more than enough fuel for my goals for substantially less than the mechanical setup. It should be able to handle well over 1000AWHP without breaking a sweat for pump efficiency. I am not looking to go past that level.

 

[Slippi84]

I was looking at this as an option in the past, but I felt I could do it easier and cheaper than the mechanical by utilizing the quad setup I described.

All I need to do is drill and tap a billet rail for a return fitting, and install the other fuel pump setup. It is only around $450 for the rest of the things needed to do it, and I can keep my current fuel pressure regulator. The mechanical setup is around $1600-2000 depending on what pump you use, injectors, rail, drive system, ORB fittings and line, etc.

This setup would be capable of more than enough fuel for my goals for substantially less than the mechanical setup. It should be able to handle well over 1000AWHP without breaking a sweat for pump efficiency. I am not looking to go past that level.

Nope. I was quoted 1300 from magnus, which is never the cheapest option, for the pump and bracket which is the expensive part. The waterman pump doesn't use those heavy duty lines that the Areomotive uses it just has -6an - -10an fittings on it so you could use the lines you already have for the most part.

 

[logic]

Here's a quick hint about the mechanical fuel pump option, if you'd rather piece it together yourself.

(Weird that this came up in two of the threads I've been following at the same time...)

 

[Slippi84]

Here's a quick hint about the mechanical fuel pump option, if you'd rather piece it together yourself.

(Weird that this came up in two of the threads I've been following at the same time...)

Thanks for the link but we all know that dvd-fab and magnus both went in together with that unit but they charge the same amount and magnus had a hook up on the pumps too that's why I called them for a quote.

 

[andy4g63]

All I need to do is drill and tap a billet rail for a return fitting...

You don't need a billet rail to do that... My fuel rail stock/don't know if it is a 1G, or 2G/, think is a 2G rail with welded -8AN fittings on both ends and -6 AN in the middle for the return. I am using a standard way feed and return, but it can be done on a stock rail, unless you feel it is restriction/ but if you feed from botg sides, like you intend, I don't think so/. If you interested, look at the photo below.

Here is a link to AMS fuel test on Evo 8;9; fuel pumps, plus wallbro 255 and Bosch 044:
AMS Ultimate Fuel Pump Test - NASIOC

P.S. I know, you know, Tim, this link, just makes it easy.

 

[turbo addict]

Here is a rudimentary 1st-grader Photoshop drawing of my fuel system modifications to come. Sorry for the MS Paint-like quality, but I think you all can get what I am doing from it.

the supra guys have been doing that for years. they have issues with 6 injector inline and not getting fuel to the last few. I was going to do this on my setp as well but just went with dual rails instead instead of running into both sides.

 

[twicks69]

Here's a quick hint about the mechanical fuel pump option, if you'd rather piece it together yourself.

(Weird that this came up in two of the threads I've been following at the same time...)

Ed, thanks for the link, unfortunately, it is not new news to me. I have known about this fuel pump bracketry for the last 2+ years, as Jake Hanhardt and I discussed this as an option for his race car. He ended up going that route, but never completed it. I ended up going the electrical pump route (one in-tank and one in-line to handle higher fuel pressures).

I decided to stick with electrical fuel pumps as they were substantially cheaper and more readily available for replacement parts. The Billet hex-drive mechanical fuel pump was more than plenty for my setup, and the Aeromotive fit quite well in a 2G engine bay. The first person with a 2G I remember with this fuel pump was Hal, and that was on a top-mount GT40R/nitrous setup. I remember seeing the engine bay and was totally impressed by its simplicity along with its effective design. The bummer of running the Aeromotive pump is not the pump, but actually the HUGE ASS fuel pressure regulator to control the Aeromotive mechanical pump. It is like 9" tall! That, and the requirement for ORB fittings and larger stainless lines, were simply overkill for my setup when I was running 600-750AWHP.

The key worries I had with the mechanical fuel pump setup, was if something totally off-the-wall happened; like sucking in the throttle body butterfly or having a stuck-open throttle, you were then stuck with a motor that was getting fuel the entire time. I do know, of course, that this is why they recommend running a manual valve for an emergency like this, since a battery cut-off switch wouldn't do anything. Other than that, the pump itself, and the drive design are just fine; they work well and provide a very large amount of fuel for a gas or meth setup. It is simply a bit much for me -- especially for a partial street car.

I would rather run my design using dual parallel in-tank pumps with each pump having an in-line pump in series. The maximum amperage draw is far less than 100A with all 4 pumps completely maxed out if they overload. The actual amperage I saw was less than 12A per fuel pump on my twin-pump (one in-line/ one in-tank) setup maxed out with 1000cc injectors.

The quad pump setup is cheap, simple, and completly fulfills my horsepower goals and will easily support 1000+AWHP, while being capable of running 90-100psi of fuel pressure at peak boost. The flow at 90-100psi is especially important in my setup as I am running a base pressure of ~43psi and 50+psi will be a given. Heck, in my initial tuning we already were at 41-45psi on only the first 10 dyno pulls on the new engine/turbo setup.

Since I already have one half of the quad pump setup installed, the other half only cost me $240 for the two pumps, and proper fittings. I already had a spare fuel filter, and spare -6AN fuel line and fittings. All I need to do is modify the pump hanger for dual pumps with independent feed lines. I already have all the wiring and relays I need to put together the rest of the fuel system. I just need to also modify the rail for the center return-line fitting. Thank you Andy for that piece of advice.

 

[logic]

Tim, I figured you probably already knew Albert was making those adapter plates, but thought I'd post it just in case anyone else reading wasn't aware.

And Hal's setup is bad-ass, if only because he built the whole damn thing himself in his garage. There's a lot to be said for DIY, especially for something you bolt to your cam gear.

For what it's worth, I'm sticking with an electrical setup for my own car; it's just a question of what I'm more comfortable with. I don't see anything wrong with your proposed configuration, it's just an extension of a setup you already know works.

Going off on a tangent a bit, are you planning any monitoring of per-pump voltage draw or outlet line pressure? That's on the hit list for my own setup: minimally, a warning light if outlet pressure on either feed line drops below base pressure (each pump outlet line has a check valve on it just prior to the Y to prevent cavitation, so I can sample pressure in each line separately, as well as pressure at the rail), although rigging something up to cut spark is very tempting.

 

[twicks69]

Tim, I figured you probably already knew Albert was making those adapter plates, but thought I'd post it just in case anyone else reading wasn't aware.

And Hal's setup is bad-ass, if only because he built the whole damn thing himself in his garage. There's a lot to be said for DIY, especially for something you bolt to your cam gear.

For what it's worth, I'm sticking with an electrical setup for my own car; it's just a question of what I'm more comfortable with. I don't see anything wrong with your proposed configuration, it's just an extension of a setup you already know works.

Going off on a tangent a bit, are you planning any monitoring of per-pump voltage draw or outlet line pressure? That's on the hit list for my own setup: minimally, a warning light if outlet pressure on either feed line drops below base pressure (each pump outlet line has a check valve on it just prior to the Y to prevent cavitation, so I can sample pressure in each line separately, as well as pressure at the rail), although rigging something up to cut spark is very tempting.

I plan on running just a warning light setup for the fuel pumps (dual color LED's -- one per pump circuit, and just telling me if there is power to the pump, or if the pump circuit is blown; i.e. flown fuse/dead pump). As well, I was intending on running a pressure sensor on the fuel pressure regulator that is wired to my AEM EMS so I can monitor and datalog fuel pressure. It would be easy to measure voltage at each pump, and a bit more interesting to monitor amperage draw utilizing a gauge or digital readout assembly. I am sure it can be done; I just don't know how to do it off the top of my head right now; I will need to research how to do it. It would also be interesting to see if you could make the AEM datalog both voltage and amperage draw at each fuel pump (or at least at each pump series).