50 trim or evo3 16G for a daily driver

[fatboyq]

so Im looking to buying a dsm soon, I have seen 3 already and have 3 more to go. I plan on driving my dsm to work daily and have some fun on the street on friday night etc. I doubt I will see the track often if at all. with that in mind what is the quickest spooling turbo out there for the street. I want to pull to redline and start making boost around 3k rpm.

is a .50 trim too much of a turbo for a daily driver sitting in traffic etc. I hear they make crazy power with supporting mods.

will the car be less reliable with a non mitsu turbo like the 50 trim? i have had some people tell me so.

 

[Strm Trpr]

fatboyq,
maybe you should read this thread.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89000

 

[RedTurboEclipse]

It's nice to hear from people who ran both.


I did not have the EVO III 16g. But I had a regular ported Big16g from RRE. That thing was fun. It spooled up fast and the power delivery is a lot different then my now PTE SCM50 trim. The 50 trim delivery was linear and smooth, as for the 16g it just hits hard. I hit full boost on my 50 trim at around 3700-3800. The big16g was a few hundreds lower.

For daily driving the 16g will be nice. Especially if your keeping stock motor. My 50 trim setup is asking for cams. Of course the 50 trim has a lot more potential if the rest of your setup is up to it. That is why I switched, knowing if I wanted more power I can get it. But at lower boost get the same amount as my big16g at higher.

 

[blcknspo0ln]

My experiences, scroll to the bottom.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218036

 

[Jeff822]

YOU LIE! Everyone told me its good for 350-400awhp all - day - long.

I hope this was sarcasm. Of all the people ive met in person only 1 made over 300 awhp on a 16g. Is it possible to make 350-400 whp on a 16g? Yes, but we are talking real world here and not shop cars that have resources right on hand. Back to the OP, if i were you, just get the E316g, you will not be dissapointed from it, and if you do ever do want to go bigger, You can sell the 16g and buy a 50 trim. Just my .02

 

[CanadianTSi]

I hope this was sarcasm. Of all the people ive met in person only 1 made over 300 awhp on a 16g. Is it possible to make 350-400 whp on a 16g? Yes, but we are talking real world here and not shop cars that have resources right on hand. Back to the OP, if i were you, just get the E316g, you will not be dissapointed from it, and if you do ever do want to go bigger, You can sell the 16g and buy a 50 trim. Just my .02

This is Exactly true, just like how everyone says you can easily make 400whp on a 50 trim, but how mnay people out there with 50 trims are actually putting down 400+ day in day out?

 

[MyBeatGSX]

I hope this was sarcasm. Of all the people ive met in person only 1 made over 300 awhp on a 16g. Is it possible to make 350-400 whp on a 16g? Yes, but we are talking real world here and not shop cars that have resources right on hand.

I love you. Can we be best friends?


And yes it was total sarcasm. I agree with you 110%, but no one else does. So nice of you all to chime in now but not when I was arguing the same point.


blcknspo0ln, that turbine housing looks ginormous. Is that a 7cm2 that's just heavily ported or is it bigger?

 

[Mikael]

50 trims suck and spool so slow you can get out and run beside the car faster.

The Evo III is fully spooled at idle and can support an infinite amount of horsepower.

Just ask.... anyone here but me.... http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241565


Get a 50 trim. It will not be the least bit less reliable.



YOU LIE! Everyone told me its good for 350-400awhp all - day - long.


To the OP, if want to know what an Evo III does in the real world, I just got back from the dyno, check out my mods list.

25psi
93 octane + NOS octane booster
perfect timing curve peaking at 20* at redline
12.0 afr, dropping to 11.5 by redline

=

A whopping 282awhp and 270lb/ft. Do yourself a favor and get a real turbo.

EDIT: are you on stock fuel? I'm surprised you were able to run that boost and timing. You'll see what i mean below.

NOS octane booster?

Bottle probably said it would raise your octane a few points right?

Say 3 points.

That would bring regular 93 octane up to 93.3, not 96. Below are some easy to get and cheap octane boosters. Its from turbobuick.com, can't find the full article.

You can get xylene at Lowes. Use a little marvel mystery oil or ATF for lubrication, good to go. I like the sarcasm on the 16 btw.

Formula #1 - Toluene
R+M/2.........114
Cost...........$2.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.2 Octane
20%...........96.4 Octane
30%...........98.6 Octane
Notes: Common ingredient in Octane Boosters in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, i.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores.
Formula #2 - Xylene
R+M/2.........117
Cost...........$2.75/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.5 Octane
20%...........97.0 Octane
30%...........99.5 Octane
Notes: Similar to Toluene. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, i.e. from 92 to 92.3. Usually mixed with Toluene and advertised as *race formula*.
Formula #3 - Methyl-tertiary-butyl-ether (MTBE)
R+M/2.........118
Cost...........$3.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.6 Octane
20%...........97.2 Octane
30%...........99.8 Octane
Notes: Oxygenate. Very common in octane booster products. Has lower BTU content than toluene or xylene, but oxygenate effect makes the gasoline burn better and produce more energy.
Formula #4 - Methanol or Ethanol
R+M/2.........101
Cost...........$0.60 - $1.75/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.3 Octane (Methanol)
10%...........94.7 Octane (Ethanol)
20%...........Not Recommended
Notes: Methanol is wood alcohol. Ethanol is grain alcohol and found in Gasohol in 10% ratios. Both alcohols are mildly corrosive and will eat gas tank linings, rubber and aluminum if used in excessive ratios. Main ingredient in "Gas Dryers", combine with water.
Formula #5 - Isopropyl Alcohol and Tertiary Butyl Alcohol
R+M/2.........101
Cost...........$0.60-$1.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.5 Octane
20%...........Not Recommended
30%...........Not Recommended
Notes: Similar to Methanol/Ethanol. Isopropyl Alcohol is simply rubbing alcohol.
Sample Mixture
To make your own octane booster, it is easiest to make up a large batch, and then bottle it up in "dosage-size" uses.
Below is the basic formula of one of the popular octane booster products. To make eight 16 ounce bottles (128 oz = 1 gal):
• 100 oz of toluene for octane boost
• 25 oz of mineral spirits (cleaning agent)
• 3 oz of transmission fluid (lubricating agent)
This product is advertised as "octane booster with cleaning agent *and* lubricating agent!". Diesel fuel or kerosene can be substituted for mineral spirits and light turbine oil can be substituted for transmission fluid. Color can be added with petroleum dyes.

Here is an article on "Rocket fuel" for our cars.

Toluene
R+M/2...114
Cost...$2.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...94.2 Octane
20%...96.4 Octane
30%...98.6 Octane
Notes: Common ingredient in Octane Boosters in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, I.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores.

 

[Jeff822]

Ok, just checkin.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Great comparison, but the NOS additive actually boosts octane by 6 Numbers points or more.

EDIT: are you on stock fuel? I'm surprised you were able to run that boost and timing. You'll see what i mean below.

NOS octane booster?

Bottle probably said it would raise your octane a few points right?

Say 3 points.

That would bring regular 93 octane up to 93.3, not 96. Below are some easy to get and cheap octane boosters. Its from turbobuick.com, can't find the full article.

You can get xylene at Lowes. Use a little marvel mystery oil or ATF for lubrication, good to go. I like the sarcasm on the 16 btw.

Formula #1 - Toluene
R+M/2.........114
Cost...........$2.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.2 Octane
20%...........96.4 Octane
30%...........98.6 Octane
Notes: Common ingredient in Octane Boosters in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, i.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores.
Formula #2 - Xylene
R+M/2.........117
Cost...........$2.75/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.5 Octane
20%...........97.0 Octane
30%...........99.5 Octane
Notes: Similar to Toluene. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, i.e. from 92 to 92.3. Usually mixed with Toluene and advertised as *race formula*.
Formula #3 - Methyl-tertiary-butyl-ether (MTBE)
R+M/2.........118
Cost...........$3.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.6 Octane
20%...........97.2 Octane
30%...........99.8 Octane
Notes: Oxygenate. Very common in octane booster products. Has lower BTU content than toluene or xylene, but oxygenate effect makes the gasoline burn better and produce more energy.
Formula #4 - Methanol or Ethanol
R+M/2.........101
Cost...........$0.60 - $1.75/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.3 Octane (Methanol)
10%...........94.7 Octane (Ethanol)
20%...........Not Recommended
Notes: Methanol is wood alcohol. Ethanol is grain alcohol and found in Gasohol in 10% ratios. Both alcohols are mildly corrosive and will eat gas tank linings, rubber and aluminum if used in excessive ratios. Main ingredient in "Gas Dryers", combine with water.
Formula #5 - Isopropyl Alcohol and Tertiary Butyl Alcohol
R+M/2.........101
Cost...........$0.60-$1.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.5 Octane
20%...........Not Recommended
30%...........Not Recommended
Notes: Similar to Methanol/Ethanol. Isopropyl Alcohol is simply rubbing alcohol.
Sample Mixture
To make your own octane booster, it is easiest to make up a large batch, and then bottle it up in "dosage-size" uses.
Below is the basic formula of one of the popular octane booster products. To make eight 16 ounce bottles (128 oz = 1 gal):
• 100 oz of toluene for octane boost
• 25 oz of mineral spirits (cleaning agent)
• 3 oz of transmission fluid (lubricating agent)
This product is advertised as "octane booster with cleaning agent *and* lubricating agent!". Diesel fuel or kerosene can be substituted for mineral spirits and light turbine oil can be substituted for transmission fluid. Color can be added with petroleum dyes.

Here is an article on "Rocket fuel" for our cars.

Toluene
R+M/2...114
Cost...$2.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...94.2 Octane
20%...96.4 Octane
30%...98.6 Octane
Notes: Common ingredient in Octane Boosters in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, I.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores.

 

[siceclipse]

shit tyler, I'm NOT going to VR for a tune!

also, my boy is buying a CW'ed TSi AWD and getting a new longblock with manifolds and shit like that.
Ill see if i can get the old coils from him.
the car is a 98 so they should be good.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

I tuned it myself, its not their fault, the tune couldn't be any better, that's just all its going to make. I got 278. Aaron gave it a try just for the heck of it and got the 282, which isn't even outside the repeatability of the dyno. When I got it outside into the cold air my tune produced a much better log so that's the one I went with.


You can knock the NOS booster all you want, Andy recommended it and said it worked for him. And the fact that my logs look perfect at 25psi would suggest it works for me too.

BTW, I was actually using the NX brand for the dyno runs, I have NOS in there now but haven't logged it yet. NX = $8 NOS = $11

 

[Mikael]

Great comparison, but the NOS additive actually boosts octane by 6 FULL points or more.

Thank you for not reading a single damn thing i posted. I also thank you for spreading poor information as if it were fact, further degrading the community. There is a ton of good information there and you just skipped it.


6 points or more eh? That's a guess. The only way to determine the actual change in octane is to average it. So lets do it-

10 gallons of 93 (average fill up, highest pump octane around here)
+
.1 gallons of MAD TYTE JDM OCTANE BOOSTER! (assuming a bottle of it is 12oz, the one i looked at was that size. I rounded .09 up to help your side out)

Total octane of 93.2. Yippy! If you mixed one can with 1 gallon of gas, you'd be at 94.9 octane- still less than 2 points, and not how the can reccommends to use it.

And as i stated, 6 FULL points will only raise 93 to 93.6, 91 to 91.6, etc.

To get it to actually be 99 octane, that can would have to be 699 octane. I could probably douse myself in that and light a match and be safe.


So i have to ask, why am i stuck in this damn newbie forum?

 

[Mikael]

Since everyone will now start posting how wrong i am and how right they are, read this:

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/octanebooster.html

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Are you aruging with my datalogs? Would you like me to post up before and afters? BTW, the "after" is a far better log running MORE boost and a half point LEANER afr.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Thank you for not reading a single damn thing i posted. I also thank you for spreading poor information as if it were fact, further degrading the community. There is a ton of good information there and you just skipped it.


6 points or more eh? That's a guess. The only way to determine the actual change in octane is to average it. So lets do it-

10 gallons of 93 (average fill up, highest pump octane around here)
+
.1 gallons of MAD TYTE JDM OCTANE BOOSTER! (assuming a bottle of it is 12oz, the one i looked at was that size. I rounded .09 up to help your side out)

Total octane of 93.2. Yippy!

And as i stated, 6 FULL points will only raise 93 to 93.6, 91 to 91.6, etc.

To get it to actually be 99 ocatane, that can would have to be 699 octane. I could probably douse myself in that and light a match and be safe.


So i have to ask, why am i stuck in this damn newbie forum?

Because you ARE a noob still. I simply made a typing error I meant NUMBERS.
So we're looking at around 98 octane or more.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=151024424&postcount=95
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1867538&postcount=8
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1867757&postcount=13
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1867770&postcount=15 (if you're gonna click any of these, this is the one to click)



oh yeah and sorry for being a dink.

 

[Mikael]

Are you aruging with my datalogs? Would you like me to post up before and afters? BTW, the "after" is a far better log running MORE boost and a half point LEANER afr.

I'm surprised you were able to run that boost and timing.

I was and still am surprised you were able to do it on pump gas with that much timing.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Well apparently I works out to higher than 93.6 octane. Either that or 93.6 is high enough.

 

[Mikael]

Because you ARE a noob still. I simply made a typing error I meant NUMBERS.
So we're looking at around 98 octane.

oh yeah and sorry for being a dink.

Again, you're overlooking information that is right in front of you.


I registered before you. I am new only to actually posting.



We are not looking at 98 octane. We are looking at 93.2 octane. I'm not making anything up.

Stop spreading crummy information. I have done plenty of research on this, along with road and dyno testing. I'm taking time out of my day to try and help others with my relevant information and experience.

 

[Mikael]

Well apparently I works out to higher than 93.6 octane. Either that or 93.6 is high enough.

Maybe you mixed with less than 10 gallons of fuel? Maybe you used more than 1 can, maybe you just had a good day.


Either way, if you want to use something to increase your octane, and be sure of the octane you're running, use what i posted. Its much cheaper and accurate. Good luck with the new turbo.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Damn you guys are fast! Previous post edited.
Now kindly eat your hat

Edit:
Here's the thread this all came from for more info.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222731&highlight=nos*+octane

Guys, I know that no ones trying to start a war here but as I mentioned, I've tried the NOS product (Racing) and it does what it's supposed to. On the box itself, it actually mentions an increase of 5-6 whole octane numbers. If you want me to pick up a can this weekend and photograph the label, I'd be happy to. They even mention the difference between raising whole octane numbers as opposed to points to avoid comparsions with the inferior brand names.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

I don't disagree with what you're saying. I'm simply saying that whatever it does, it worked.

There's not a snowball's chance in hell that it makes 98 octane. SCC tested it and got like 94.5 octane out of 91 octane mixing it with the low concentration recommended. So it definatly works. They also tried Toluene and needed to mix the max recommended 30% to get the same results as the NOS brand booster. For the ease and convience I don't think you can beat it. Gas prices have dropped enough that including the booster, I'm paying the same for a tank as I was in the middle of the summer (or about $3.70/gal).

Ah, I see Andy added that NX works in one of those posts. Explains why it worked for me on the dyno.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Fine.



Don't ask for help here when your engine blows up.

Dude, we've made mistakes presenting our case. This much is clear. But the products used make a significant and tangible difference. You don't have to be so hostile about it and post things that insinuate our motors will blow and that you'll not help when they do..

 

[iceman21221]

i would deffinetly rather have a evo3 b16g for an everyday driver. spool up time is just right.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

i would deffinetly rather have a evo3 b16g for an everyday driver. spool up time is just right.

Your profile would suggest you're still on a stock turbo. Have you driven both an E3 and a 50 trim?

 

[blcknspo0ln]

blcknspo0ln, that turbine housing looks ginormous. Is that a 7cm2 that's just heavily ported or is it bigger?

Nope, just a heavily ported PTE cast housing (.63AR).

Oh, and when did this thread get so off topic?