50 Trim or A Big 16G?

[blackmirage]

Ok, This is not neccasarily a wich turbo should I get and how much power will I have post, yet more of a wich is better suited for a noob just starting out on a 1990 AWD Talon TSI.. A 50 Trim or A Big 16G? I appreciate your help.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Because most 50 trims are bolt on. They have Mitsu exhaust housings. Its no more difficult than a 20G install, they're cheaper, they're more efficient, etc

Damn Jay, maybe I should let your brother build my car for me. Or better yet, why don't you get me his mod list and copy and paste it to my profile and maybe that will make my car faster.

My numbers are low for 2 reasons.

A 3" DP into a 2.5" catback.

and

I dyno my car at one of only 3 twin high mass 248/248 dynojets in the country. It puts enormous load on the car. Equivalant to accelerating 5,500lbs if I remember correctly. That means a longer more difficult pull which results in more heat soak both to the intercooler and the coolant. Not to mention all they have is a 2hp fan that has less airflow and speed than my stock a/c fan. I also made that pull untuned with only 12 degree of peak timing.

 

[2gGSX]

A full Garrett (T3 or T4) setup will GENERALLY (I'm sure there are exceptions, but the vast majority of the time except in the case of the custom FP housings) flow more than their bolt on counterparts. The housings are just plain bigger than the Mitsu housings, providing less restriction especially in the upper RPM range. Another big plus is that you can choose from any number of Garrett turbos available (there are a LOT of combinations) which may better suit your needs than just "20g" or "50 trim".

Whether or not any of this offsets the extra costs required for this (manifold, O2 housing and downpipe) is up to you.

 

[SaiyanFury]

Ok I admittedly didn't read every post as everyone had something different to say, but blackmirage, what do you ultimately want from your car? It's an AWD so you have better than my FWD. I've got an EVOIII 16G with HKS cams and my car is fun, albeit I have much tuning to do. If you're going to go with an EVO3, I would recommend 650cc injectors with a 190lph fuel pump as you won't have to change Fuel Pressure Regulators (at least from what I've read). If you go with a 255 or so, you'll need an adjustable FPR (fuel pressure regulator) such as an Aeromotive or some such. And also despite the fuel pump you will need a fuel computer such as APexi's SAFC-II which I plan for my own car. It's a piggyback computer system that seems to work well with many DSMers. But if you're wanting the 16G to be the best it can be, get yourself a set of cams, perhaps similar to mine (264/272), or different depending on your wants. And if you're going for the best bang on a 16G consider an FMIC. My own setup is relatively poor, and I think I'm overheating due to a really inefficient IC. It's the only cause I can find on my own. But as I've iterated for people, don't listen just to opinions; Learn what you ultimately want from your car, and do the proper research. Learn what you need to keep factory, and what you would need to change out for aftermarket parts while keeping things in your engine bay from blowing up!

ie: If you get racing cams, make sure to get accompanying valve springs! (I have both HKS cams AND HKS valve springs)

Do the research, and if you have questions, people here are great to answer your inquiries. And please listen to my recommendation: Listen to AndyMoraitis, he knows what he's talking about.

And remember: Don't cut corners. Do things properly. We made mistakes rebuilding my engine, and I paid for them very dearly. Do things properly, and a world of fun awaits you

Also if you're curious about my other mods look at my car's stats under my link. That will tell you more.

 

[Mike_GSX]

Hi,

after reading that post i'm a litte sad.
I just odered a ported EVOIII from FP.
It's already at home, but not on the car. But after these post I got the impresssion that I won't reach 300whp with that turbo. (i didn't even plan going with cams)

I thought a lot of people have reached that easely, never tought about that people may have given oppinions or statements without even knowing how a EVOIII or a 50trim looks like


Mike_GSX

 

[ChvyKc]

It is possible to make over 300 hp at the wheels on the 16G without diving into headwork. The turbo that is on my car came off of a car that made 288 whp and 280 wtq on the stock smic and stock head at 19 pounds. If he would have had an upgraded sidemount with water injection (like I do) or a front mount than he would have been well over 300 whp with the drop in intake temp and the ability to run more boost. I am able to run 24 pounds on my supra smic and still keep the intake temps below 110.

I went with the 16G because I got it for a good price. If I was looking to go with a brand new turbo then I would definately go with a 50 trim. I am starting to get frustrated with the turbo that I have now because it is so hard to make power above 320 whp with this turbo. It just will not flow enough air.

The 16G is a great turbo though. If you can pick up a good used one at a decent price then you can't beat it but go with the 50 trim if you are looking at new turbos. For the price difference it's the best choice.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Hi,

after reading that post i'm a litte sad.
I just odered a ported EVOIII from FP.
It's already at home, but not on the car. But after these post I got the impresssion that I won't reach 300whp with that turbo. (i didn't even plan going with cams)

I thought a lot of people have reached that easely, never tought about that people may have given oppinions or statements without even knowing how a EVOIII or a 50trim looks like


Mike_GSX

Welcome to the club. But don't get too depressed about it. 300whp is do-able. Its just not the cake walk, bolt on and go that many of the ignorant people here try to make it sound like.

In my opinion and from my personal experience, 300whp is not an easily attainable number with an Evo III like everyone would like you to believe. Instead I think its more of a realistic MAX power for that turbo on stock cams. And we all know that aftermarket cams on that turbo is equivalant to self-service. Like building a head and raising the rev limit to 9,000rpm but still running a T25. Sure it can be done, but why?

Repeat after me, "If you lose boost at high RPM's due to the turbo's inability to keep up with flow, this is no different than running with the wastegate disconnected. And running your turbo right off the choke line yields piss poor efficiency and drastically shortened turbo life." The end.


I'll be upgrading to one of the BB SCM's this summer.

 

[brute]

I have cams on my Evo III and love it. I don't consider it a waste of money, because I know that I'm upgrading the turbo at some point. I never shift past redline, I never run 20+psi, so what's the problem? Exactly. Nothing.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

The part where you said "I plan on upgrading" is what made it all ok.

Anyone that KNOWS they want well over 300hp and chooses and Evo III to do it, IMO is a complete moron. I'm not refering to people such as you or myself that are either in the process of upgrading or have a realistic power goal for it, or in my case were misled into thinking it was capable of far more power than it actually is.

I am completely against getting a turbo that will be at 10/10 (or many DSMer's cases 12/10+) of its power potential. Its been proven by the Honda community that selecting a large turbo that will barely be working at 5/10 or less is a far better policy. That's why they all make more power than us on weak crappy motors. Lag be damned, who needs boost below 4k anyway?

 

[brute]

For most beginners, it's a GREAT turbo to learn stuff with. Installing turbos, spool characteristics, and numerous other things. If you want a quick spool, good power, and easy install, you absolutely CANNOT beat Evo III. Sure a BB 50-trim spools about as fast as the Evo, but look at how much they are. You can't find a BB unit for less than $1000. Plus, you need to figure out everything with oil feed (restrictions and filtered), install (bolt on or Garrett), and other things. Newbies don't need this stuff to learn from. They need to learn, then step up to that.

You don't buy a car and immediately throw in a 2.4L stroker and GT35R without knowledge of the car as a whole.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

I'll agree with that. So then here's how it should work.

Instead of this:

Newbie: What turbo should I get to make 400-450hp?

Clueless Member: AN EVO III WILL DO THAT NO PROBLEM!! SLOW BOY MADE 400HP WITH A STOCK REDLINE!!! ALL MY FRIENDS HAVE EVO III'S AND THEY'RE ALL MAKING TONS OF POWER. MY FRIEND FROM THIS OTHER FORUM THAT KNOWS THIS GUY SAID THAT GUY'S BROTHER'S HALF SISTER'S EX-BF'S COUSIN'S COLLEGE ROOMATE JUST MADE 1098AWHP ON AN EVO III!!!! AND WENT 2.97 @ 539mph...... IN THE HALF MILE!!!


We need this:

Newbie: What turbo should I get to make 400-450hp?

Knowledgable Member: Maybe you should consider starting with a smaller turbo and setting a goal of 250-300hp instead. The Evo III would be an excellent turbo to learn with. Then when you feel comfortable and have all the supporting mods in place, you can upgrade to something appropriate to your 400-450hp goal.

 

[brute]

I like the first one better

 

[JayRolla]

Damn Jay, maybe I should let your brother build my car for me. Or better yet, why don't you get me his mod list and copy and paste it to my profile and maybe that will make my car faster.

He also is running a full 2.5 exhaust and I forget how you cant really compare different dynos. Im pretty sure he could get more out of his set up with better tuning. After the dyno we got a logger and the dumb ass tuner added timing instead of taking it out. He hits almost 30* advance at 17psi by redline. He said anymore boost would not be safe. Of course not when he made the timing advance way worse. He should have taken timing out. Less timing and more boost I bet he would have broke 300whp.

 

[brute]

He hits almost 30* advance at 17psi by redline.

You not only trust this guy, you pay him like $100/hr to "tune" the car?

 

[MyBeatGSX]

30* of timing? I would hope he's at at LEAST 300hp.

Knock that back down to like 18 where it belongs and he'll be under what I'm making.

Also keep in mind, people seem to overlook this. A full 2.5" flows just fine for 300hp. But having a 3" DP that connects to a 2.5" catback doesn't flow at all. The air slams into the flange before it all has to rearrange, compress, and then go through the rest of the exhaust. This is far different from having a smooth flowing 2.5" turbo back. Trust me, I ran an open DP for awhile, the difference is huge.

 

[Eclipse98_RS]

I have a 50 trim in my 98 GS-T. Im currently only running 7 lbs of boost. I got bored and decided to test drive a 98 GSX for sale with mods close to mine running 15 lbs. My car felt like it was faster.(maybe im on crack or something) Maybe im biased but id say go with the 50 trim. The 16G seemed to take forever to spool up and mine is a lot faster.
I say 50 trim!

 

[JOEY A]

My qeustion is whats the Fastest 50trim and Whats the Fastest EVOIII or Big16g

 

[JOEY A]

I have HKS 272s and a EVOIII its been on a stock side mount and the car moves.ts very fun, and if you like throttle on over steer out of turns boost comes on hard and the car will power slide....

My new motor is going in the car as we speak, along with a SUPRA side mount im looking to put down very fast times with the car this year for what it is. Pretty basic weico pitons(9:1 compression) Eagle rods blah blah


I would not get a NON BB 50trim, It doesnt impresse me at all now a BB 50trim would be the ticket.


Im a big fan of the EVOIII and ive driven alot of different turbo cars, and had a chance to compare others setups and different cars.

Im planning on running a 75shot this year, its all about the tune to many people have halfassed tunes! Look at this member and a 2G weighs a bit more than a 1G/
http://dsmtuners.com/forums/member.php?u=1661

 

[Spooling99]

I have a 50 trim in my 98 GS-T. Im currently only running 7 lbs of boost. I got bored and decided to test drive a 98 GSX for sale with mods close to mine running 15 lbs. My car felt like it was faster.(maybe im on crack or something) Maybe im biased but id say go with the 50 trim. The 16G seemed to take forever to spool up and mine is a lot faster.
I say 50 trim!

If your 50 trim spooled up faster then a 16G Theres gotta be a problem with that car. Also your only boost 7 and hes boosting 15 that might be a reason. And a 16g isn't at full potential till around 18psi+

 

[JOEY A]

If a 16G is taking forever to spool there is a big problem with the car! Its basic car knowledge man.

 

[95talonracer]

20g go big or go home. JK Good luck with the build!

 

[Dragon TalonTsi]

I still love the turbo, but yeah, like most others said, I got boost happy and am doing some more major upgrades.... A newer advanced BB turbo is something I want to go with, and if its bolt on for about the same price, why not? But I will have to do with my other baby now. And of course I am keeping it once I upgrade, but I might sell, who knows, just do your own research and homework, take some advice from others, and you will be on your way... trust me, we have all been there before on what path to take for the upgrades....

 

[Grr]

ill tell you what, my gsx is just a POS that i bought last winter so not to drive my GTO around. well now that the GTO is gone and i have my grand national tore apart, i took it to the dragstrip. stock 13g(you think you got it bad, stupid auto), 450cc inj and computer, thats it, changed injectors. this thing has almost 180k on it, and i filled it with some 112 octane and boosted it till i melted the turbine wheel right off the shaft. anyway, got a 14.4@94 out of that little thing. long story short i made a little adapter plate and stuck my 3-bolt flange buick turbo on there and have it pretty much done now. its a bit bigger than your standard 50-trim, 58mm vs. 54mm, and a .63A/R exhaust. now my car is still stone stock, and its an automatic, but i get into full boost by 4000, 14psi, and havent tuned anything yet as i dont have the means, just wanted it to be drivable.
Anyway i wouldnt dream of putting a smaller turbo on this car, it is a complete blast. this thing pulls so hard when it gets spooled its amazing. honestly i would never ever bother with those tiny ass housings on mitsu turbos, its a waste. go big once and it will only get better. hell im planning on a 70GTQ for my buick and its just a little v6.
Gary

 

[scturbospyder]

I say go with the Evo3 first then just build around it. It'll keep you going until you're ready for the big dogs.

 

[exiletalon]

t3/t4!

 

[blcknspo0ln]

I say go with the Evo3 first then just build around it. It'll keep you going until you're ready for the big dogs.

That my friend, is completely reverse of what anybody should be doing. If you're planning on building a motor and/or just purchasing parts to go faster; Determine your power/driving goals and then mod to that potential. The turbo should be one of the last things you should purchase when achieving a goal (of course to a certain extent). Build your motor to what YOU want it to be, then buy a turbo that will flow enough to get you there.

I said it before, but i'll say it again. If you have the funds for it get a BB50 trim (I love mine) or a td06h 20g Spoolup is ridiculously overrated (unless you autoX) and the difference in 3-400rpms vs. the amount of power you get is not comparable. Just for example sake, my e316G took me to 106mph and my NON BB50 took me to 110 mph on the same type of crappy tuning with my old FWD.