1G tubular control arms

[underradar92]

It's whichever works out to 8*, I think the other common taper is 10*. My trig-fu is not strong, and I can't relate to those construction working type calculations. The P/N is a Howe 2232OS. I haven't decided how much offset I'm going with yet, I may just get the .400 long one. Go big or go home no?

 

[turbosax2]

1.5"/ft - ~7*
2.0"/ft - ~10*

 

[underradar92]

Actually, as I was holding the tapers in a v-block when I compared them, I don't know what the actual taper is, just that it's the same as a DSM taper. Paul, the part number should cross reference the taper angle I'd imagine, then we'll all know for sure.

My bad.

 

[99gst_racer]

Thanks for the part number, Jim. The maintenance instruction sheet that comes with the Howe 22320S states that it's 1.5"/ft - so 7*. This info will open up alot of options and possibilities for different designs.

 

[Ludachris]

Glad to see we're finally making some progress! I knew there had to be some possibilities that were being missed with the ball joints. Good work guys.

 

[turbo23]

hello,

I'm Tyler Hassing, and am the friend of paul's which is working on these control arms.. sorry I haven't given any updates latley, we have become extremely busy at work with the up coming race season. as of now we have built a test stand to test the overall strengh difference between the factory arm and our control arm. we need a few peices to finished up the test "stand" then we will provide you with a video to check out, and also with % of strength increase over stock.. specifically testing the back part of the control arm where the bushing is attached. Also on the subject of how this rear bushing attaches, what the pictures don't show is that there is a sleeve through the bushing which the bolt tightens down on to. In this situation the bolt is then put into tension and the sleeve into compression, this combination adds the strength of the tube that which the bolt is bolted to.. at any rate when we get this test finised I will be able to tell you the percentage of strength increase over stock. As far as producing the arms, we do have a jig made, and have most of the material, but as stated, we are very busy with other work at this point in time.. we plan on making these avalible after our strength test, and some good road time on my personal car.

As far as the recomendations that you guys have all given for the solid bushings, and the adjustment of rollcenter, caster, camber, and anti dive. We have taken these ideas and have decided to offer the arm you see here as a direct replacment/drag race arm. We are hoping are test results will show us the abiblty to run a thiner wall tubing for this arm. For the road race guys, or just anyone who wants some adjustabilty, we are in the process of designing an arm which will acommendate most, if not all, of the adjustabily listed previously. this arm will be built more like a circle track control arm. We probably wont start working on these arms for a few weeks. but we are eager to get some put togather and see your opinions and further ideas to help us better cater to your needs.

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Anything for the rear?

James

 

[bpestilence]

Another product you might want to consider would be tubular subframes, front and rear for the AWD cars. The factory piece is stamped steel, and is IMO not as stiff as it could be, and unecessarily heavy to boot.

 

[turbo23]

Once we get stuff moving again, we plan to offer tubular rear control arms and fronts for both 1G and 2G cars. After we get that far then we plan to build tubular front a rear subframes for both cars as well. It will take some time though do to the fact that this isn't our main source of work.

 

[Morphius]

specifically testing the back part of the control arm where the bushing is attached. Also on the subject of how this rear bushing attaches, what the pictures don't show is that there is a sleeve through the bushing which the bolt tightens down on to. In this situation the bolt is then put into tension and the sleeve into compression, this combination adds the strength of the tube that which the bolt is bolted to.. at any rate when we get this test finised I will be able to tell you the percentage of strength increase over stock.

I understand what you are saying, but there is still a shearing load that is translated through that joint. I wouldn't be so worried about that load, but the fatique of the bolt and stress concentrations in the thread. I do think it was a cool, ingenius idea. However, that joint will fail before a solid rod will. In addition, it's an added joint to work loose.

If not for the peace of mind and the liability side, going to a rod, will at a minimum save you cost and time to manufacture it. Rod is cheaper than bolts. No holes to tap as taps are expensive and time consuming.

 

[Ludachris]

I just hope you understand that you might not sell as many of these initial control arms as you would hope due to them being designed for a part of the DSM crowd that probably won't benefit much from them and is less likely to spend the extra cash on them. Tubular control arms will mostly help the road racers and autocrossers - and maybe the drag racers if they're lighter weight than stock. But they're not a good street car product.

I only say this because I'm hoping you don't change your production plans after seeing low sales numbers on this product. Because there is more of a market for the road racing version of these arms, plus tubular sub frames, and other racing-specific tubular products. Making street versions of all of this stuff is a bit of a waste. Instead, the idea should be to build a race product that street car owners can use if they want, not the other way around.

 

[turbo23]

I understand what your saying chris, this first arm is going to be targeted to drag racers, but will be a factory replacement for street cars, if there willing to pay for them. being able to change the ball joint with out changing the whole miht get some "street cars" interested..

 

[92GSXman]

Another option on the ball joint would be to use one from the 92-95 Hyundai Elantras. They are identical to the dsm ball joints but they bolt on instead of pressing in. I suggest picking up one from the parts store and giving it a shot. It may be easier in the end to build the arm to fit these as well.

 

[Ludachris]

I understand what your saying chris, this first arm is going to be targeted to drag racers, but will be a factory replacement for street cars, if there willing to pay for them. being able to change the ball joint with out changing the whole miht get some "street cars" interested..

Again, I just would hate to see you get discouraged by low sales and then decide not to pursue the stuff that has a better chance of selling. That's all. Hit me up when you're ready to become a Supporting Vendor to start posting more updates about your progress in the Vendor forum.

 

[Ludachris]

Another option on the ball joint would be to use one from the 92-95 Hyundai Elantras. They are identical to the dsm ball joints but they bolt on instead of pressing in. I suggest picking up one from the parts store and giving it a shot. It may be easier in the end to build the arm to fit these as well.

The problem with that is that you move to a similar ball joint without addressing the roll center issue. See the posts above in regards to this.

 

[underradar92]

The problem with that is that you move to a similar ball joint without addressing the roll center issue. See the posts above in regards to this.

x2

If the design is to be altered to fit a non-OEM style joint, it may as well be one that opens up useful options. Also, as it's advisable to change ball joints while you are in there, why not get a $20.00 each (thats the NAPA price for a Chrysler thread-in style) ball joint upgrade? With the option of adjustability? I still vote for this. The threaded inserts to weld into the arm cost like $11.00.

Hardly outside the realm of "street useable".

 

[MidShipCivic]

This isn't 100% finished. It isn't being marketed yet. This thread has nothing to do with commercial sale or distribution. This is a prototype design, and we're looking for advice for changes, improvements, etc...

Suspension Kinematics, far from simple. Race car dynamics has a deluge of variables.
Good luck with that.

Spherical bearings aurora with sealed bearings.

4340 chromoly.

Adapt existing aftermarket sway bars.

And a 1st gen DSM.

 

[e85_4g63]

How are things coming along with these? Any word on you (Tyler) becoming a supporting vendor? I'm very interested a set of these. Us 1g guys need more options when it comes to building a road race car.

 

[Ludachris]

Just found an interesting tubular control arm design for a Mustang. Look at the bushing design:

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Looks very similar to what is being attempted here.

 

[dsm-onster]

Nice. IMHO the front joint to the crosmember is what should be taking the brunt of the weight transfer and momentum changes from my personal evaluation of it for watever that would be worth. The rear bushing has the leverage of the distance to the front bushing to cancel out any high load the front would see.

 

[Ludachris]

Just for everyones' information - the control arm I posted above is made by BMR, a reputable name in the domestic world. They suggest these for drag racing and road racing. So you'd have to think the specs would be enough for our application if they're suitable for a heavier Mustang road racing application.

They use 1.25" DOM, a 3/4" QA1 XR series Teflon lined rod end for the front and an internally greased Delrin bushing in the rear.

I've emailed them to see if I can get more info. Makes you wonder if an '05+ Mustang control arm would fit our cars

 

[99gst_racer]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing, Chris.


Tyler recently built a testing block to compare the strength of his arm to the factory arm. He applied pressure until they permanently fatigued, and his tubular arm proved to be able to accept more force before it deformed.

I don't have all of the details in front of me, so I won't go any furthur with it. I'll let Tyler fill you guys in on the test.

 

[DSM_Roller]

awesome, very interested

 

[underradar92]

Really liking BMR's rear pivot design. Mustangs also enjoy an extended ball joint that is a direct fit. For Mustangs.

Matt, have you seen the post/photo of the broken Polk arm?

 

[Ludachris]

Another shot of the Mustang control arm:

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It looks like such a simple design. I don't see why we can't use it for ours. I really need to get my new welder fired up so I can start practicing. If we can't get a vendor to make some tubular pieces with solid bushings, I'm going to have to make my own. BMR is selling their adjustable kit for $500 for the complete pair with ball joints. And they claim a total of 11.2 lbs weight savings over stock. That's not bad at all.