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1G 1g manual - stalling randomly CAS?

Posted by TK's9d2TSi, Nov 26, 2020

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  1. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    I’ve been having an issue where the car randomly stalls. At first I thought it was the new fuel pump (hellcat 525) since it started happening after I installed it.

    Today, I had the key in the on position and while I was turning the crank by hand (plugs were out) the fuel pump turned on and off.

    I’ve read this thread https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/1g-basic-ecu-mpi-circuit-function.435961/

    So I have a feeling it’s my black top cas. I unplugged it and turn the engine over again and pump didn’t turn on. As soon as I plug it back in, the pump turns on and off which I’m not sure is normal. Could there be a short inside tripping the mpi relay?

    It used to take some time before it stalls but now it does it within 5 minutes of starting. It starts right back up no problem.
     

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  2. 97egl

    97egl Proven Member

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    It's normal for the fuel pump to turn on when you turn the CAS. It thinks the engine is cranking and is trying to supply it with fuel.
     

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  3. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    Isn’t that only when it sees the starter signal?
     

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  4. iugrad92turbo

    iugrad92turbo Supporting Member

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    A short it could be a short , but im thinking cas, Swap it out.
     

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  5. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    I don’t have an extra. I’ll see if my buddy has one
     

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    613  4

    93 Civic 4 Door -sold-
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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
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  6. motomattx

    motomattx Proven Member

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    Thats normal, your generating a rpm signal, that causes the ecu to trigger the fuel pump until you stop turning the crank.
     

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  7. steve

    steve DSM Wiseman

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    Nope, anytime it sees CAS activity. It sets/resets a timer, turns on the pump and when the timer expires it turns the pump off. SO as long as the engine looks like it's running (Continuous CAS signals) the pump stays running. The 1G MPI relay also has an input from the ignition switch start position so it will prime the pump before it sees the first CAS pulse and continue while your cranking.

    I don't really discuss the fuel pump side in that other thread because it's more about how the ECU gets turned on.
     

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  8. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    Is it normal that the pump turns on and off when you plug the connector back on the cas with the key in the on position?

    The only thing I notice in the log is the inj duty drops to zero which could be either side of the mpi circuit since injectors and pump are on different sides
     

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    2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Classic
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  9. 97egl

    97egl Proven Member

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    Yes it is normal. When you plug it in your creating a signal so it turns the pump on. Then if you don't turn it, it turns off when the timer expires as @steve said above. If you where to sit and continuously spin the CAS without stopping the pump would stay running
     

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  10. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    Dang it. Gonna have to keep digging. Thanks everyone for your input!
     

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  11. steve

    steve DSM Wiseman

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    When the car stalls is the Check Engine Light on?
     

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  12. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    No. No store codes either. I think it’s losing signal somewhere and turning the pump or ignition off

    Thinking it had to do something with the pump, I swapped back my other pump, replaced relay and wires for rewire. Still same thing. The 12v wire from battery does get warm and the inline fuse is fine as well.

    I mentioned this before but now it does this within 5 minutes of starting the car and starts right back up no problem. I’m hoping it gets worse so I can figure out the problem.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2020

    566  3

    2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Classic
    awd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    613  4

    93 Civic 4 Door -sold-
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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
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  13. steve

    steve DSM Wiseman

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    Do you have any basis for that? Have you looked at either when it stalls?

    Do you have anyway to log what's happening?

    My 1G will stall if you leave it idling long enough but will restart right back up. Adjusting the BISS will eliminate it but then it get idle surge so it's a air related issue that I haven't felt like solving.
     

    294  4

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  14. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    Just taking an educated guess at this point since I don’t see anything in the logs. I’ll post a log in a few days.

    I failed to mention that it first started stalling only while driving after 15 minutes or so, and now it has progressed to stalling at idle within 5 minutes.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2020

    566  3

    2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Classic
    awd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    613  4

    93 Civic 4 Door -sold-
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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
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  15. steve

    steve DSM Wiseman

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    Missed this before. When does the IPW drop to 0, before or after it's stalled. After is normal, before means something else said to cut off the fuel.
     

    294  4

    2008 Audi TT 3.2 Quattro Roadster
    awd · manual · Misc Vehicles

    261  5

    2002 Audi TT Quattro Roadster 225
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    1992 Dodge Stealth RT/TT
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  16. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    The last time I looked at it, it was hard to tell definitively
     

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    93 Civic 4 Door -sold-
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  17. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    Found one from earlier this month while tuning cruise. 213 mark it stall while driving. I'll post one later at idle.
     

    Attached Files:

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    2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Classic
    awd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

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    93 Civic 4 Door -sold-
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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
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  18. EZ91Talon

    EZ91Talon Supporting Member

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    My engine has been doing this shutting off thing for about a year now, but only after the engine has warmed up. Initially, all the gauges would shut off, too. Before today, I replaced the fuel pump, the MPI relay, the ignition coil and power transistor, and the spark plugs and the plug wires (I had various reasons for suspecting each of these components).Still, it would shut off consistently whether idling or under load after warming up.
    I taped a cell phone to the hood hold up rod and took a video at idle of the fuel pressure gauge I have on the fpr with an induction timing light pointed at it and managed to see that the ignition spark cut out about a second or so before the fuel pressure dropped out - I also collected a log of the event (attached, see about 136 seconds) and noticed that the ignition timing would normally fluctuate 1-2deg every 100-200 milliseconds but it froze at 17deg for about 600 milliseconds right before the shut off. I replaced the CAS today, then warmed up the engine and let it idle for about 20+ minutes and it didn't shut off. I went back out a few hours later and warmed it up again and let it idle for another 15 minutes or so; it still didn't shut off.
    I notice in your log that your timing remains completely static for significant (relative to mine) periods of time - often for a full second or more. Does anyone know if this is normal?
    This has been a very frustrating issue for me; I hope you figure it out - best of luck!
     

    Attached Files:

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  19. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    Had the car apart so didn’t drive it for some time.

    I have a feeling it’s my injectors. One was completely stuck closed when I put my motor back together a few moths ago but was able to free it up. I took them out a few days ago and now two of them seem to be sticking. I was able to free them both. Installed them yesterday and tuned them again. Perfect! Let it cool down for a few hours and started it, afrs is lean now (wasn’t logging when I restarted). It hasn’t stalled...yet. I’m looking at a new set

    Did you notice your isc is at zero the entire log?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2020

    566  3

    2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Classic
    awd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    613  4

    93 Civic 4 Door -sold-
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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
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  20. EZ91Talon

    EZ91Talon Supporting Member

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    Actually, no, I did not notice that. Only noticed that it shot up right after the stall event.
     

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  21. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    @steve Can you see anything in these log? If you look at the second log, it's starts off pig rich then goes full lean. Injector Duty drops to zero right before it shuts off on all 3 logs.
     

    Attached Files:

    566  3

    2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Classic
    awd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    613  4

    93 Civic 4 Door -sold-
    fwd · manual · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 3K  5

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    12.2 @ 120 · 1G DSM
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  22. DSMPT

    DSMPT Proven Member

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    @TK's9d2TSi Tony, did you take those logs in the same moment? It seems to me that you have a bad IAT sensor or something related to it. In the 1st log, it seems it sends the voltage properly. but in the 2nd and 3rd log, the IAT voltage is pegged max. I imagine at least the pig rich issue in the last 2 logs is caused by it. You should try another IAT sensor and see if it would fix the issue.
     

    Drag Race Build 3K  7

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    awd · manual · 1G DSM

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    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
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  23. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    Ah sheet! I had it disconnected LOL. Good eye! I try again a little later. Thanks buddy!!
     

    566  3

    2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Classic
    awd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    613  4

    93 Civic 4 Door -sold-
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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    12.2 @ 120 · 1G DSM
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