Street Build 1g build - The Real Life Trials and Tribulations of building a DSM

[Anfurnyy]

This is one of common errors when degreeing cams. Probably you are not setting the dial indicator tip on a stable spot. At the moment when the valve event switches from max lift to closing event, the dial indicator tip easily moves/slides due to spring pushes back, that's why this mostly happens in closing event. You just need to get used to. Find a better position for the dial indicator tip with trial and error, and you should do couple of times and take an average.

I figured it was probably that. I did buy some of those tips with a bend in them so I'm going to try and put that on the top of the retainer where the keepers are and see if that works. I originally tried to do that on the intake side but the cam lobe kept hitting in and then I got in my own head and switch locations.

I'm also not using the Kiggly springs on cylinder 1 right now, I'm running some fairly light springs, probably just a couple lbs just for degreeing.

 

[DSMPT]

I figured it was probably that. I did buy some of those tips with a bend in them so I'm going to try and put that on the top of the retainer where the keepers are and see if that works. I originally tried to do that on the intake side but the cam lobe kept hitting in and then I got in my own head and switch locations.

I'm also not using the Kiggly springs on cylinder 1 right now, I'm running some fairly light springs, probably just a couple lbs just for degreeing.

Yeah you should use a L shape tip or fabricate one longer L tip to fit better with a piece of metal rod, like a stick welding rod.
If you have the soft checking spring installed, maybe it's a good time to check your piston to valve clearance by degree.

 

[Anfurnyy]

Yeah you should use a L shape tip or fabricate one longer L tip to fit better with a piece of metal rod, like a stick welding rod.
If you have the soft checking spring installed, maybe it's a good time to check your piston to valve clearance by degree.

I've got an L shaped one I can try to use. I might have to look up how to do that piston to valve clearance if it won't take too much work

 

[Anfurnyy]

Yeah you should use a L shape tip or fabricate one longer L tip to fit better with a piece of metal rod, like a stick welding rod.
If you have the soft checking spring installed, maybe it's a good time to check your piston to valve clearance by degree.

Tried again after work just now, made a new little L fitting for the dial indicator put it on top of the keepers where the the rocker shouldn't effect it and I just can't seem to get the closing even to measure right.

Intake @ .040" is perfect at 48° BBDC, centerline perfect at 113°, but closing just won't read right. Needs to be 2° ATDC but it keeps reading either 1 BTDC or 0° on the money.

It's parallel to the valve, cam isn't hitting it, the mount isn't moving. Not really sure what else to do.

 

[DSMPT]

Tried again after work just now, made a new little L fitting for the dial indicator put it on top of the keepers where the the rocker shouldn't effect it and I just can't seem to get the closing even to measure right.

Intake @ .040" is perfect at 48° BBDC, centerline perfect at 113°, but closing just won't read right. Needs to be 2° ATDC but it keeps reading either 1 BTDC or 0° on the money.

It's parallel to the valve, cam isn't hitting it, the mount isn't moving. Not really sure what else to do.
View attachment 759652View attachment 759653

Should avoid to set the dial indicator tip on the check spring and keeper, put the tip on the valve with kiggly spring and on retainer (This is the most difficult part). Try to set the dial indicator tip on the retainer somewhere on the green line in the pic below. Even under the rocker arm, there is a space that it wouldn't interfere. Just keep in mind that it's almost impossible to have the exact same number always but should be very close each time.

I might have to look up how to do that piston to valve clearance if it won't take too much work

Not that much but would take some time of course. You already have the check spring and degree wheel installed, since the check spring is for this purpose I thought maybe it's a good time to know how much clearance you have as you have aluminum rods IIRC. Probably you wouldn't have any issue even you don't check as long as if your pistons are off the shelf kit and valves are stock size though.

 

[Anfurnyy]

Should avoid to set the dial indicator tip on the check spring and keeper, put the tip on the valve with kiggly spring and on retainer (This is the most difficult part). Try to set the dial indicator tip on the retainer somewhere on the green line in the pic below. Even under the rocker arm, there is a space that it wouldn't interfere. Just keep in mind that it's almost impossible to have the exact same number always but should be very close each time.

Just so I understand don't put it on the keepers
is what you're saying? Try to put it on the lip of the retainer just outside the keepers?

I'm consistently getting 0° rotation after rotation, always rotating clockwise.

 

[DSMPT]

Just so I understand don't put it on the keepers
is what you're saying? Try to put it on the lip of the retainer just outside the keepers?

Yes

 

[Anfurnyy]

Well tried again today and got a solid result setting the dial indicator tip on the lip of the retainer just outside the keepers.


*Final* numbers I got for exhaust cam were:
Opening at 46° BBDC - Cam card shows 48°
Closing at 1° ATDC - Cam card shows 2°

So somehow I'd have to advance the opening event, but retard the closing one? Doesn't really seem to make sense.

I made sure the dial indicator was parallel to the valves travel both horizontal and vertical best I could, cam wasn't hitting the extension, valve lash set to zero, and always made sure to rotate in direction of engine operation and that the dial indicator(S) both TDC and Cam lift indicators rested back at zero. I really don't think I can do better.

 

[1cleangsx]

So by doing this is your car going to make more power/idle better?

Or maybe I could imagine it gives you a better starting point to make cam gear adjustments as you know exactly where you’re at with the cams zeroed out.

 

[Anfurnyy]

So by doing this is your car going to make more power/idle better?

maybe marginally?

Or maybe I could imagine it gives you a better starting point to make cam gear adjustments as you know exactly where you’re at with the cams zeroed out.

Also yes? Lol

Honestly I'm doing it not because I had issues or anything, but it's a learning experience for me AND I wanna make sure stuff is done right is all

 

[DSMPT]

Well tried again today and got a solid result setting the dial indicator tip on the lip of the retainer just outside the keepers.
View attachment 759729

Yeah seems you found a good spot.

*Final* numbers I got for exhaust cam were:
Opening at 46° BBDC - Cam card shows 48°
Closing at 1° ATDC - Cam card shows 2°

So somehow I'd have to advance the opening event, but retard the closing one? Doesn't really seem to make sense.

I made sure the dial indicator was parallel to the valves travel both horizontal and vertical best I could, cam wasn't hitting the extension, valve lash set to zero, and always made sure to rotate in direction of engine operation and that the dial indicator(S) both TDC and Cam lift indicators rested back at zero. I really don't think I can do better.

Maybe the lash is not set properly. But many things could affect and make a tiny difference in each rotation, so if I were you I would take an average.
Did you set the true TDC when you set the TDC on the degree wheel? Aren't you sharing the same solid lifter between the intake and exhaust?

 

[Anfurnyy]

Yeah seems you found a good spot.

Maybe the lash is not set properly. But many things could affect and make a tiny difference in each rotation, so if I were you I would take an average.
Did you set the true TDC when you set the TDC on the degree wheel? Aren't you sharing the same solid lifter between the intake and exhaust?

I set lash by manually adjusting solid lifter until the rocker didn't rock freely while in place then pulled the lifter out and locked it down with the lock nut on it and put it back. I don't know how I can average a difference between to opposite measurements. I one calls for retarded timing and the other calls for advanced.

To set true TDC really all I did was use a dial indicator on top of the piston and marked TDC on the wheel when the piston hit tdc. Moved the wheel / pointer to where it was pointing to TDC when the dial indicator shows 0 for TDC. I did not account for dwell.

I am not sharing solid lifters. I have a pair of them so currently there is one on the intake and one on the exhaust valves.

 

[DSMPT]

I set lash by manually adjusting solid lifter until the rocker didn't rock freely while in place then pulled the lifter out and locked it down with the lock nut on it and put it back. I don't know how I can average a difference between to opposite measurements. I one calls for retarded timing and the other calls for advanced.

I assume your lifter is the BLE solid lifter, that way to set the lash is common but it's not accurate, causes different lash each time. BLE solid lifter height would easily change before and after tightening the lock nut. I don't think you need to worry something, but if you want make this more clear, you may want to try to re-adjust the lash and check again.
If you set the lash again, try not to set the lash as exactly zero. You should use thickness gauge and set the lash as somewhere between .002"~.004" "after" locking the lock nut. And see if it changes the result.

 

[Anfurnyy]

I assume your lifter is the BLE solid lifter, that way to set the lash is common but it's not accurate, causes different lash each time. BLE solid lifter height would easily change before and after tightening the lock nut. I don't think you need to worry something, but if you want make this more clear, you may want to try to re-adjust the lash and check again.
If you set the lash again, try not to set the lash as exactly zero. You should use thickness gauge and set the lash as somewhere between .002"~.004" "after" locking the lock nut. And see if it changes the result.

I probably won't try to do it again. I feel pretty comfortable with the camshaft timing I got.

I did go ahead and find my piston to valve clearance though which was much easier.

These are what I got:
Seems like I've got plenty of room to spare including the aluminum rod expansion assuming the minimums I Read online are correct of .100" for exhaust and .080" for intake.
I made sure that I zeroed the dial gauge before every measurement and that it naturally rested at 0 before taking my final measurement by depressing the valve down and releasing it slowly, and that it came back to 0 after that final measurement too.

 

[Anfurnyy]

Well the kiggly springs and what not are back in but we've run into a problem and kind a big one. I shot compressed air into the spark plug hole to keep the valves open while swapping them on the car and there's a bad leak on the cylinder 1 first exhaust valve. None of the other 3 valves leak but this one is pretty bad.



Tried rotating the engine over, rotating the valve and didn't get any worse or better. Going to call the machine shop Monday.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Well the kiggly springs and what not are back in but we've run into a problem and kind a big one. I shot compressed air into the spark plug hole to keep the valves open while swapping them on the car and there's a bad leak on the cylinder 1 first exhaust valve. None of the other 3 valves leak but this one is pretty bad.



Tried rotating the engine over, rotating the valve and didn't get any worse or better. Going to call the machine shop Monday.

What is it about these damn cars that make them fight us when we try to do the right thing and make sure it’s perfect? I dunno if I’m relieved or annoyed to see it happen to others too.

 

[Anfurnyy]

What is it about these damn cars that make them fight us when we try to do the right thing and make sure it’s perfect? I dunno if I’m relieved or annoyed to see it happen to others too.

I really don't know honestly it's upsetting. I might have to travel for a decent machine shop unfortunately. The one I went to is about 25 minutes away and my brother took his gen 3 hemi block there and had good results.

 

[DSMPT]

Seems like I've got plenty of room to spare including the aluminum rod expansion assuming the minimums I Read online are correct of .100" for exhaust and .080" for intake.

Did you check it by setting the cylinder #1 in exhaust stroke? If you checked it when the cylinder was in compression stroke, you would see more clearance due to all valves are closed.

Well the kiggly springs and what not are back in but we've run into a problem and kind a big one. I shot compressed air into the spark plug hole to keep the valves open while swapping them on the car and there's a bad leak on the cylinder 1 first exhaust valve. None of the other 3 valves leak but this one is pretty bad.



Tried rotating the engine over, rotating the valve and didn't get any worse or better. Going to call the machine shop Monday.

Perhaps the valves are not lapped. The machine shop didn't do a leak test? What about the other cylinders?

 

[Anfurnyy]

Did you check it by setting the cylinder #1 in exhaust stroke? If you checked it when the cylinder was in compression stroke, you would see more clearance due to all valves are closed.


Perhaps the valves are not lapped. The machine shop didn't do a leak test? What about the other cylinders?

Yeah during exhaust stroke for the exhaust side and during intake stroke when doing the intake side.

I asked the machine shop I took the head to if I needed to lap the valves and they said no. I was going to ask them if they did leak test but forgot when I picked the head up.

It was hard to get a read on the other cylinders but they all leaked out the exhaust side for sure. Not quite as bad as the first valve on the exhaust side but enough that I could feel it with my hand outside of the exhaust port. Intake side on cylinder 2 & 3 was a similar story.

I don't believe that intake side on cylinder 1 was leaking at all.

Cylinder 4 kept rotating the engine Everytime I hooked up the compressor and I ran out of time to continue testing.

 

[DSMPT]

Yeah during exhaust stroke for the exhaust side and during intake stroke when doing the intake side.

Great. IIRC you have R&R rods. The R&R rods originally come with about .010" shorter than steel rods for heat expansion. But yes, you have sufficient clearance.

It was hard to get a read on the other cylinders but they all leaked out the exhaust side for sure. Not quite as bad as the first valve on the exhaust side but enough that I could feel it with my hand outside of the exhaust port. Intake side on cylinder 2 & 3 was a similar story.

I don't believe that intake side on cylinder 1 was leaking at all.

Cylinder 4 kept rotating the engine Everytime I hooked up the compressor and I ran out of time to continue testing.

Maybe you can see if they lapped or not by checking the valves. The valves are new right? In case if they forgot lapping, you would see that the valve surface all look the same condition, no sign of grinding.

 

[Anfurnyy]

Great. IIRC you have R&R rods. The R&R rods originally come with about .010" shorter than steel rods for heat expansion. But yes, you have sufficient clearance.


Maybe you can see if they lapped or not by checking the valves. The valves are new right? In case if they forgot lapping, you would see that the valve surface all look the same condition, no sign of grinding.

I do have R&R rods, yeah.

I brought in the same valves that came out of the head. I didn't inspect ALL the valves when I got the head back, just 2 I think? But this is what they looked like.

I don't think these were lapped, at least not a lot of they were. This looks like just straight up grinding? I don't have a lot of experience between the two so I can't really say for sure.

To ME, it looks like there's only ONE angle on the valve face. Instead of 3. I have a sneaky suspicion that maybe this is a 60° or a 30° instead of a 45° to seal against the seat but I honestly don't know.

 

[DSMPT]

I brought in the same valves that came out of the head. I didn't inspect ALL the valves when I got the head back, just 2 I think? But this is what they looked like.

I don't think these were lapped, at least not a lot of they were. This looks like just straight up grinding? I don't have a lot of experience between the two so I can't really say for sure.

You should confirm about the details with the machine shop. The valve looks like as is from the manufacturer. So they are not lapped. Some people/shop don't lap when using new valves with newly cut seats. If strictly speaking, that probably cause tiny leak before the initial start up, but that tiny leak would probably be gone once the engine run and gets hot, it won't affect performance. But I personally don't like to see leaking even a little. So I always do a liquid test before assembling the engine and if I see leak even a tiny bit, I lap. If it leaks too much, then no choice, has to be lapped at least.

To ME, it looks like there's only ONE angle on the valve face

I know what you mean, it's normal, new valves usually look like that before lapping/seating.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

If they had lapped those valves, they would have a Grey line all the way around the valve face, where it meets the seat angle. A little lapping may get that to seat and it's possible they forgot to hit one if they don't mark them as they lap them. I like doing my own, personally, so I can see the lap area and then vacuum test them.
Glad you are documenting your degreeing. Remember, sometimes the cam just isn't ground perfectly too and you got really close. That may be as good as it gets. I degreed a few small block chevys and all the stuff you are doing and that Hiroshi has suggested is correct. Take your time, like you have been.
Jeremy, to tell you, basically what dialing them in or advancing or retarding does is let the camshaft(s) work exactly as they were designed or where you want them to perform. When I was young, us guys would buy a cam that was too big for our street cars then advance them 4* to pull the power band down to our usable level and still sound NASTY (because who doesn't like a rumpity cam?).
Just what we used to do "back in the day".

 

[Anfurnyy]

If they had lapped those valves, they would have a Grey line all the way around the valve face, where it meets the seat angle. A little lapping may get that to seat and it's possible they forgot to hit one if they don't mark them as they lap them. I like doing my own, personally, so I can see the lap area and then vacuum test them.
Glad you are documenting your degreeing. Remember, sometimes the cam just isn't ground perfectly too and you got really close. That may be as good as it gets. I degreed a few small block chevys and all the stuff you are doing and that Hiroshi has suggested is correct. Take your time, like you have been.
Jeremy, to tell you, basically what dialing them in or advancing or retarding does is let the camshaft(s) work exactly as the were designed or where you want them to perform. When I was young, us guys would buy a cam that was too big for our street cars then advance them 4* to pull the power band down to our usable level and still sound NASTY (because who doesn't like a rumpity cam?).
Just what we used to do "back in the day".

Do you also lap them after getting a valve job done?

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I usually pull a couple valves and look then I pull a vacuum on them with a vacuum pump to test them for sealing. The liquid test is ok to, but use a THIN liquid.