Which Turbo Should I Get [merged] What Turbo

[Ludachris]

Which turbo will be sufficient for consistent 11 second times? I've recently decided on a big 16g, but will that be big enough to run 11s with supporting mods and decent tuning? Remember, this is for a budget street car, so any one purchase over $1k is tough. A big 16g will run about $700-900, which is about $300-400 less than the larger alternatives.

Of course, I'll need lots of practice to run these times, but, I just want to make sure that it's possible before the money is spent.

 

[MrBoxx]

Everyone, please remember to use proper punctuation, spelling, and grammar. This isn't kindergarten and we would like to be able to help you as much as we can, but that starts with being able to comprehend your posts easily.

 

[happy_charly]

hey guys i am as you would call me a "newbie" BUT ONLY TO DSM'S i have been building and raceing since i was old enough to get a wrench. but this is my first build on a dsm if you look in my profile i have listed all that is done to my 91 TSI. but my question is my new motor has literally hours on it. and has been tuned for 6 psi of boost to break in the motor on a dyno of course. my question on these 4g63t motors what is an efficient break in time for the rings and everything in the motor. and also after it is "broke in for say" what is a safe boost level to run the local shop that did the build on the car said they built it to make about 420 480 rwh. at around 25- 32 psi but i want a safe boost level not competly " balls out " as i would say ill leave the second tune as a race tune. its got a electronic boost controler with up to 4 settings by HKS. oh and sorry one more Q it might be in the foum history and if it is i apologize ahead of time but i am told that this car has a evo 3 16g how can you tell? thanks for any info you all can give me and i look forward to a long life a a new DSM' er thanks JAMES

 

[t-rexn8]

Hey everyone, thanks for all the info posted here. I am in a bit of a pinch as my engine is being rebuilt for my 1998 Eclipse GSX and I have to find a new turbo asap since the builder is now almost done and is telling me my stock turbo is shot. The engine has been built with mahle pistons, eagle h-beam rods, acl bearings, arp hardware, and stock head. I also have the large cone k&n air filter with hard pipe and hard upper IC pipe, also 3" turbo back exhaust, other than that everything else is stock. I would like to get the Evo 3 16g but I am worried that with stock injectors and fuel pump it could be an issue? My plan was to break in the engine with stock turbo, then get more supporting mods before I purchased a new turbo. So my question is, could I run the Evo 3 16g with stock injectors and fuel pump for a while untill I can get larger injectors, fuel pump, front mount intercooler and dsm link?

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

Nathan

 

[We're on Boost]

I also have the large cone k&n air filter with hard pipe and hard upper IC pipe, also 3" turbo back exhaust, other than that everything else is stock. I would like to get the Evo 3 16g but I am worried that with stock injectors and fuel pump it could be an issue? My plan was to break in the engine with stock turbo, then get more supporting mods before I purchased a new turbo. So my question is, could I run the Evo 3 16g with stock injectors and fuel pump for a while untill I can get larger injectors, fuel pump, front mount intercooler and dsm link?

Well, since you have a 3" downpipe and exhaust and I suppose no cat, fuel should be an issue even with the stock turbo. I mean you should be hitting fuel cut. So I figure go for the evo 3 instead of putting that old turbo back on there! Once you find out where fuel cut happens just don't do that anymore until you get the new pump and injectors and engine management. The old right foot boost controller, you know?
Have you ever seen the Power Pages for the 1992 Eclipse mods? They show you where fuel cut started happening for them in their mod sequence. 1g though, different turbo and so on. Their solution was adding an FCD - don't do that, I think that just fools the ecu into thinking there is less air flow which leans out the AF and that would be worse than fuel cut.

Dyno tuning a 1992 Eagle Talon - Power Pages - Import Tuner magazine

1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse Talon - Power Pages - Import Tuner Magazine

This power pages thing is in 2 parts, they hit fuel cut in part 2 when they put on the downpipe.

Gary

 

[Joe-GSX]

So I'm in the market for a bigger turbo. (I will have the fuel supporting mods) I already have dsm link and also have MAF-T. I was thinking a 16g externally gated, but I was quoted a $1,270.24 price tag from SBR.
Here is what the $1200 would get me:
16g W/ flapper welded shut $595
SBR Cast Manifold w/ 7 cm 38mm wg flange $225
Tial 38mm wg $249.99
2g DSM install kit $178.25
S/H $22

When I saw how much it would cost I thought that was a bit too much for a 16g upgrade.. BUT I do not want boost creep and I thought that porting is not the right way to go. Should I just get a 20g and have it externally gated? My goal was 12 secs, but I would love to touch 11's at the track and get yelled at for not having a roll cage once. =) I know 11's is asking a lot out of a 16g. My gsx is not my daily driver, but I do like to go boosting around now and again on the streets. So, I am not sure what to do.

 

[delta448]

I don't know where you got the notion that porting is the wrong way to cure creep.

If you want more than an E3 16G can get you, I'd consider a 50 trim or 18G 6SL2 (since it's on your wishlist) before a 20G only because of cost and what you get for your money.

And yes, $1200+ is a bit much for a 16G setup. If you plan on going to a FMIC eventually, you do not need the whole 2G install kit, just buy the oil lines and all the gaskets.

 

[gsxAWDdsm692]

Will a 50 trim bolt up to an Evo III manifold? If so wheres the best place to get a 50 trim? What would I need for an install kit in regard to oil/coolant lines? Thanks

 

[t-rexn8]

Thanks for the reply. So it sounds like upgrading the turbo in my case will lead to boost creep and fuel cut even at stock boost setting?

I would like to buy just the turbo and get everything else later but I dont want to kill my new motor.

I guess I should try to buy the turbo with a larger fuel pump, DSM link, and maybe injectors?

Regards,

Nathan

 

[delta448]

Will a 50 trim bolt up to an Evo III manifold? If so wheres the best place to get a 50 trim? What would I need for an install kit in regard to oil/coolant lines? Thanks

There are several variants that will bolt up to the stock mitsu flanges, or that can be ordered with an optional mitsu hotside.
FP's Green; PTE's 5031, 5031R and 5027; Bullseye's T04B and T04E, and their Borg Warner S256 and S258 just to name a few.
I'm not certain, but the oil and coolant lines needed are probably different for each manufacturer and could even be different for different variants from the same manufacturer (BB vs 360 race, etc.), sorry but you'll have to do your own research there.

Thanks for the reply. So it sounds like upgrading the turbo in my case will lead to boost creep and fuel cut even at stock boost setting?

I don't think it's that likely if kept at stock boost. Fuel cut is more of an urgent issue on 1G's. If you do run into issues with fuel cut, do a boost leak test immediately, run the turbo straight off WG pressure, and keep your foot out of it until you can get some proper fueling upgrades in place.

As for creep, there are plenty of how-to's available on porting. If you still don't feel comfortable with porting it yourself, I'm sure most turbo vendors would be happy to take your money and do it for you.

But, you might not even have to worry about creep or fuel cut, so why not worry about it IF it happens.

I would like to buy just the turbo and get everything else later but I dont want to kill my new motor.

I guess I should try to buy the turbo with a larger fuel pump, DSM link, and maybe injectors?

Regards,

Nathan

Honestly if I were you, I'd buy a used 14b for cheap (can be had for <$200) and wait to upgrade the turbo until after you have that fuel pump, AFPR, DSMLink, WB O2 and some decent sized injectors. Meanwhile, you can do the engine break in with a turbo that you don't have to worry about ruining with metal from the bearings being broken in, and you can explore the power potential of the 14b with its quick spool. The 14b can reach 325+whp, plenty quick for a mostly street driven car and even at stock or slightly heavier weight.

 

[We're on Boost]

Thanks for the reply. So it sounds like upgrading the turbo in my case will lead to boost creep and fuel cut even at stock boost setting?

If you could keep the boost level stock you wouldn't run out of fuel, you'd be ok. But I don't think you'll be able to keep the boost stock with either an e3-16g or a 14b. I don't know what boost a e3-16g gets up to when you run it on just the wastegate spring with no boost controller. SOMEbody would know this. I would guess about 12 psi. But then yeah you would probably get some creep on top of that. The Power Pages runs had a stock 14b on a 1g and when they put the downpipe on (with 70mm exhaust and no cat) they were hitting 17psi and getting fuel cut at 5000 rpm on the dyno. The 2g ecu is a little different and I don't know how fuel cut works on the 2g. Also the 2g MAS can flow a lot more than the 1g. In the power pages test they got rid of the fuel cut with a fuel cut defencer and a bigger fuel pump, but still stock injectors, and made 290 whp. Trouble is they didn't say a word about air/fuel ratios and I bet they were too lean at high rpm. That's why I don't think the FCD is a good idea. Better to let the ecu protect the engine with a fuel cut.

Gary

 

[delta448]

If you could keep the boost level stock you wouldn't run out of fuel, you'd be ok. But I don't think you'll be able to keep the boost stock with either an e3-16g or a 14b.

But then yeah you would probably get some creep on top of that. The Power Pages runs had a stock 14b on a 1g and when they put the downpipe on (with 70mm exhaust and no cat) they were hitting 17psi and getting fuel cut at 5000 rpm on the dyno.

In my experience, I've not had an issue. I run a 14b (6cm hotside) and a catless 3" TBE. I am able to maintain as low as 12psi without creep at WOT, my turbine housing is very lightly ported and just at the inlet. I usually run about 16-17psi, and have never hit fuel cut yet. However, the 16G's 7cm hotside is very notorious for creep when run as cast and offers a significant airflow increase.

I don't know what boost a e3-16g gets up to when you run it on just the wastegate spring with no boost controller. SOMEbody would know this. I would guess about 12 psi.

I've heard it is 12-14psi, varying slightly from turbo to turbo.

The 2g ecu is a little different and I don't know how fuel cut works on the 2g. Also the 2g MAS can flow a lot more than the 1g. In the power pages test they got rid of the fuel cut with a fuel cut defencer and a bigger fuel pump, but still stock injectors, and made 290 whp. Trouble is they didn't say a word about air/fuel ratios and I bet they were too lean at high rpm. That's why I don't think the FCD is a good idea. Better to let the ecu protect the engine with a fuel cut.

The 2G ECU can go a little bit further in airflow before hitting fuel cut from my understanding. Maybe one of the ECU gurus will set us straight on that part, but going solely from what I remember, I'm pretty sure the 1G cuts a fair amount earlier than the 2G.

I totally agree that the FCD is not the best way to combat fuel cut. Even an SAFC or MAFT would be better.

 

[We're on Boost]

That sounds like some darned good information above.
Zack, what are you using for a boost controller?

Gary

 

[delta448]

I use the P-O-S basic Turbo XS MBC. It works well enough I guess, so I haven't felt the need to replace it yet, but if I don't go to an EBC eventually I may at least try a ball and spring style instead of a bleeder valve style.

I believe the ball and spring type is just a better design. The bleeder style doesn't completely seal off the boost pressure signal to the WG actuator, just lessens it slightly. IMO, this makes the flapper start opening before the full boost setting is truly reached, but on the other hand it probably at least helps control creep better. So I am likely sacrificing a few rpms in spool-up for a more stable max setting. You may be on to something here w.r.t. my non-issue with creep.

 

[Joe-GSX]

So the past few days I have put a lot of thought into which turbo I'm going to get. I found a MHI 20g for $799.98 shipped to me.

Compressor Spec
wheel:20G
Diameter: 52.6/68 mm
A/R: .57
Acutator set at 1.0 bar = 14.2 Psi
Turbine Spec:
Wheel: TD05H
Diameter: 49.2/56 mm
A/R: 8 CM2

I'm going to have to put on an external wastegate setup correct? And I can just buy a 16g install kit to make it all work?

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Where did you find this turbo? Sounds like it already has an internal wastegate. Have pictures of it? You shouldn't need a 16g install kit unless it has the compressor housing of a 16g.

 

[Joe-GSX]

Where did you find this turbo? Sounds like it already has an internal wastegate. Have pictures of it? You shouldn't need a 16g install kit unless it has the compressor housing of a 16g.

eBay Motors: MHI TD05H 20G 430HP TURBO S13 S14 S15 SR20DET/CA18DET (item 380033773923 end time Sep-30-08 10:57:20 PDT)

 

[delta448]

Joe, that eBay turbo looks like the real deal MHI... -I just have two issues with it. The turbine wheel and turbine housing.
1) The TD05H turbine wheel is IMHO too restrictive to let a 20G compressor really shine without any clipping. I honestly think you can get better performance, both in quicker spool-up and in higher max power by going with an 18G 6SL2, which FP is offering a sale on currently, likely for even less final cost than what that eBay turbo will cost you.
2) That turbine housing shown in the eBay ad will bolt up to your manifold fine, but will not bolt up to your stock O2 sensor housing.

 

[Joe-GSX]

Joe, that eBay turbo looks like the real deal MHI... -I just have two issues with it. The turbine wheel and turbine housing.
1) The TD05H turbine wheel is IMHO too restrictive to let a 20G compressor really shine without any clipping. I honestly think you can get better performance, both in quicker spool-up and in higher max power by going with an 18G 6SL2, which FP is offering a sale on currently, likely for even less final cost than what that eBay turbo will cost you.
2) That turbine housing shown in the eBay ad will bolt up to your manifold fine, but will not bolt up to your stock O2 sensor housing.

Well 18g it is then =) Thanks for the help!

 

[FaNtUm2113]

hey guys...looking for what turbo to get to get me to 400-500 HP? i will be doing all necissary mods to get there...though they havent been done yet... its FWD so i know some lag is a good thing to maintain traction also what type of fuel system is need for this? any recommendations would be appreciated to point me to where to look. i have seen people recommending the 50trim or the 20g for around 300 HP dont know if that is capable of getting up to mid 500's though. thanks

 

[deviousgst]

i was wondering if the Upgrade Garret FP Big 28 Turbo '95-99 is way better than the evo3 big1 6g, would there be a big difference or would it be around the same. and if so would it be a straight bolt on or would i have to reroute my jpipe from my 16g

 

[JusMX141]

T28's are actually smaller than Evo III 16G's with less potential.

The only reason it's good for a 2G is because of the direct "bolt-on" capability. I still prefer the reliability of a MHI turbo over a Garrett.

 

[xsboost]

+1 16g

 

[dsm03]

I have the Garrett Big T28. It works great you ll get a faster spool too. But since your GST the EVO 16g would probably be better suited. There are a lot of threads with this debates do a search and get a idea of what you rather go with. To me either or is good

 

[Detective Coating]

16G FTW. They have a lot more potential than a T-still2small. 16g's have put down a little over 500whp.

 

[jrohner]

I have the Garrett Big T28. It works great you ll get a faster spool too. But since your GST the EVO 16g would probably be better suited. There are a lot of threads with this debates do a search and get a idea of what you rather go with. To me either or is good

I don't know why you'd need boost sooner than the 2800 rpms of the E3 16G.