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turbo upgrade time, what to go with

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Aslan I believe he posted the" OMG" smilie for the price of a new TDo6 20G, when he could get a FP Green for 100$ more. Thats just my take on that. Tyler it seems like the logical way to go would be to get the Green, manifold with WG hole drilled, air intake pipe, injectors obviously, and DSMLink, but you already knew those last two. Just my .02

Dustin
 
MyBeatGSX said:
Let's forget the pervious question. New questions, new issue...

1. What 50 trim (or close equivalant) is everyone running.

2. What did you pay (new/used).

3. How much power are you making on what octane, boost, tuning method etc.
1. Turbonetics T04E super 50-trim. Inducer = 2.122, Exducer = 3.200. I'm also running the T3 turbine housing, .63 A/R. I am currently unsure of my turbine wheel.

2. Paid $450 shipped, slightly used. Included the FP drain line.

3. I'm making 403 WHP on my everyday street tune, using DSMlink. 27 psi, 22* timing advance, and an AFR of 12.3:1 at the top of third. I run 110 Sunoco Purple on a daily basis. I also have a bone stock block, head, cams, TB, and intake manifold, as well as original composite head gasket and original head bolts.

MyBeatGSX said:
What's involved in a full Garret swap aside from manifold and O2 housing?
* Garrett style turbine housing (probably T3 for you)
* Manifold to match the turbine housing
* O2 housing to match the turbine housing
* Larger intake pipe to match the inlet
* New drain line (feed line might be modifiable to work)
* wastegate of choice and dumptube to match
* Gaskets to match turbine housing


Here's a couple pics of my newly constructed 50-trim T3 set-up. I've only been running it for a couple weeks now, and it's been great.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/paulvolk/T3 conversion journal/pics6511.jpg

My homemade O2 housing: http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/paulvolk/T3 conversion journal/Picture015.jpg

brute said:
I vote for FP Green if you have the money. If you were looking to spend a little less, I'd say go with Turbonetics for sure.
I agree 100%.
 
Quick side question for you Paul (or anyone I guess). What do use to figure your airflow when checking out the maps of potential turbos. I just want to play around with a few things. I could use my current airflow numbers but those wouldn't really be relevant with a larger turbo would they?

Nice job with the O2 housing. Maybe I will go with the Garrent swap because as I said, my friend makes manifolds for a living so he should have no problem making me a T3 manifold and O2, and that's a huge part of the cost cut way down. And for everyone that is going to jump in and say "SEE YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT COST!!!". Give it a rest people. I'm not fricken Bill Gates, I just said I don't mind paying for quality and performance. I'm not going around handing out money or buying the most expensive parts I can find just because they're the most expensive.


Hopefully this topic can at least turn into something useful for people in the future.
 
Great looking turbo set-up Paul. I wish we had 110 octane round here. I think your choice for turbo and set-up is what Paul stated Tyler.

Dustin
 
After reading all this bullcrap, my suggestion is to consider getting DSMlink instead of a new turbo. Assuming your profile is accurate, 277whp is not near the full potential of the evo3 16g.

I understand that you want a bigger turbo, I understand you want you make more power easier (and easier on your parts, if thats really even possible), but the Link will do more for your car than just power, its a very versatile tool as we all know.

..an idea worth entertaining, even if for only a moment.
 
PieEyedPiper said:
After reading all this bullcrap, my suggestion is to consider getting DSMlink instead of a new turbo. Assuming your profile is accurate, 277whp is not near the full potential of the evo3 16g.
Exactly.... oh, and a wideband O2.
I'm going to run my 18g into the ground and learn how to tune my car to it's full potential on 91 craptane.

Then once I've maxed out the 18g, I'll definitely look into a 50 trim.
 
I don't have any specific recommendations at the moment. However, I did look at our Dynosheets Database to find what people are running in the 350whp range and found two guys running EVO3 turbos at 348 and 354 whp. A guy running an SCM5031 at 346, a FP3052 at 353, and another using another 50-trim at 361 whp. I didn't check to see if they were on pump gas or not. I'll let you do further research.

I would look at a few compressor maps to see where the turbos are most efficient. I was under the impression that 350whp would not be inefficient on an EVO3, but I'm not certain. I can understand your argument of safety margin and reliability, not wanting to push the turbo and engine to the max to get the usable power you're looking for. I just didn't realize that would be the case trying to get 350whp out of an EVO3 on pump gas. How did you come to this conclusion? You certainly don't want to be on the opposite side of the turbo's efficiency either. It's one thing to max it out, but you'll be wasting your money by underutilizing it too.

I actually have a SCM6152e and I think it's too big for the type of track events I like to do. This turbo isn't really too efficient in the 21-22 lbs range that I'm running it on. I'm actually considering going with a 50-trim for better spoolup and more usable power on the road courses. Of course, I still want to be able to put down over 400whp though. And I'm sure a 50-trim is very capable of that. If I were only looking to put down 350whp I would think a 50-trim would be overkill. But it sounds like that's what you want to do. You can't fault people for asking why and challenging your logic. It's what we do around here - we try and help where we can. If we feel someone is going off in the wrong direction we try to get them back on track.

I might be going to the track with a guy tonight who has an EVO3 16g. I'll let you know how he does.
 
Funniest thread in awhile...

99gst_racer said:
I'm tired of editing and deleting crap in this thread. If everyone can post constructively, then this will stay open. Let's try to stay on the topic of the original post, and not think out of the box. And subtle attitudes will definitely help this thread progress in the right direction.

How about this. (The OP <strike>can</strike> will chew me out if I stray off-topic.)

If not a 20G, what's the next incremental street/pump gas turbo above a E3-16G? Would <i>it</i> constitute an "efficient" 350hp snail?
 
99gst_racer said:
1. Turbonetics T04E super 50-trim. Inducer = 2.122, Exducer = 3.200. I'm also running the T3 turbine housing, .63 A/R. I am currently unsure of my turbine wheel.

Do you know which model?
 
MyBeatGSX said:
I don't care if the stock block CAN do 400hp, I want reliability and a non-halfassed car. Overbuilt is the way to go. Is a shame everybody are such cheap bastards they don't see it this way. This is another reason we have thousands of people with "unreliable", "always broken" DSMs. If you can't afford to do it right, you should go buy a Corolla an throw and intake and exhaust on it.

Edit: Trying to be nice so deleted.
 
Ludachris said:
I might be going to the track with a guy tonight who has an EVO3 16g. I'll let you know how he does.

Im not sure how much whp im putting down, but ive run a best of 12.38 so far with the evo3 16g stock head stock block ( with the exception of arp hardware and cometic headgasket ) and i believe there is much more out of this little monster :thumb: evo 3 16g is really a great turbo ecspecially for the street. IMO of course.
 
If not a 20G, what's the next incremental street/pump gas turbo above a E3-16G? Would it constitute an "efficient" 350hp snail?
Exactly. I'm assuming its a 50 tirm correct? A 20G would be excellent if I could find one, an 18G might even work well. But if I'm going to pay close to $1,200 for a new turbo, I might as well get something that's going to last me the life of the project. I can't buy these turbos used around here, they just don't exist.


Ludachris said:
I would look at a few compressor maps to see where the turbos are most efficient. I was under the impression that 350whp would not be inefficient on an EVO3, but I'm not certain. I can understand your argument of safety margin and reliability, not wanting to push the turbo and engine to the max to get the usable power you're looking for. I just didn't realize that would be the case trying to get 350whp out of an EVO3 on pump gas. How did you come to this conclusion? You certainly don't want to be on the opposite side of the turbo's efficiency either. It's one thing to max it out, but you'll be wasting your money by underutilizing it too.

I'm about to plot where I'm running out on an E3 map and then post it up here.

I also have dyno time for Saturday morning, so we'll see what I put down now that the car is actually tuned. The timing may have come up 4-6* but it doesn't feel any faster. I'm debating whether to run open DP just to get a number or if I should leave the 2.5" catback on there to see what its actually making.

I came to that conclusion because even if I'm amazingly lucky and my tune brings me to 300hp, I'm at 20psi already. How much more would everyone like me to turn this tiny thing up on pump gas? 2-3psi isn't going to get me 50hp, no way. So next everyone will recommend cams, but I'd rather get a bigger turbo that bigger cams right now. Either way I'll lose low end and make more top end, but with the bigger turbo I won't be running the breath out of a tiny turbo to make the power and I'll have the option to get cams later and run them on a turbo that can make use of them, this will make big power. Do you understand my logic?
 
And to the person that recommended Link. I'm still debating between that or a Keydriver chip. But one or the other is on the way.
 
I'm not reccomending the Evo 3, but I did want to clarify something about that specific turbo. There are a LOT of people making over 350whp with that turbo, they just aren't on this site. A few people on the Dsmlink forums have made over 400whp with the Evo3. I understand that you don't want to use it any longer, and I'm not saying you should, I just wanted to make sure that everybody is aware that it is more than capable of making 350whp.

I still say go with the Green. I've seen it in action and it's a nice turbo, FP's quality and customer service can't be beat. It also gives you some room if you want to go over your 350whp goal.
 
GVR4592 said:
I'm not reccomending the Evo 3, but I did want to clarify something about that specific turbo. There are a LOT of people making over 350whp with that turbo, they just aren't on this site. A few people on the Dsmlink forums have made over 400whp with the Evo3. I understand that you don't want to use it any longer, and I'm not saying you should, I just wanted to make sure that everybody is aware that it is more than capable of making 350whp.

Since this has just become and open debate topic for the future reference of anyone shopping for turbos... why not elaborate?

They did this on pump? And at what boost? Using meth/water? I'm curious now.

I fully believe it will make WELL over 350hp on 116 leaded, cams, and with some form of injection, I never doubt that once. Those were just things I don't want.

I didn't rule it out based on other people on the board, but based on a large number of local people running it and only being able to get in the 280-330hp range. Any that made over 300hp has had a real struggle. I'm not knocking anyones credibility, but I value the opinions and experiences of people I know personally way over that of random people on the internet.


Here's an interesting question. My profile is completely up do date, what would you suggest for me to hit 350awhp with this turbo? (if you say race gas then you're just trying to piss me off) Keep in mind I'm already running 20psi, even though its actually more because at 6,000rpm it starts creeping to like 22-23 and peak power is made in that area. Also keep in mind that cams will cost me as much or more than a bigger turbo (I'm selling the Evo for $300) and have equal or greater low end killing effect without increasing the growth room of the setup.
So, show of hands. Who thinks an Evo III will do 350awhp on 93 octane, no injection, and stock cams?.
 
If I had your exact setup, I'd add a set of 264/272 equivalent cams, 650 injectors, an EPROM ECU with the timing capped at 18 degrees max advance on an 11.5:1 tune, and a methanol kit. I'd take the thing to the dyno, run 93 with the equivalent properties of race gas and boost that thing to 26-28 psi. If that's not easily making 350 to the wheels, I'll eat my hat and give you my stroker.

You're blaming the turbo for a lack of proper tuning devices. There's nothing wrong with what you have, but the fact of the matter remains that while there are better turbos on pump gas, there are available solutions to allow your EVO III to make excellent power on pump and methanol.

Just my .02,

Andy
 
Andy Im sure that would hit 350 but he doesnt want to run meth injection, just straight 93. Its not my personal preference to run straight 93, I will be running meth injection with a big holding tank in the hatch area, so I can DD with it on 93, but have the properties of race gas all the time on the street.
On a side note I have to say this is turning into a very nice thread. Nice thinking Paul to keep it open, but clean it up.

Dustin
 
andymoraitis said:
If I had your exact setup, I'd add a set of 264/272 equivalent cams, 650 injectors, an EPROM ECU with the timing capped at 18 degrees max advance on an 11.5:1 tune, and a methanol kit. I'd take the thing to the dyno, run 93 with the equivalent properties of race gas and boost that thing to 26-28 psi. If that's not easily making 350 to the wheels, I'll eat my hat and give you my stroker.

You're blaming the turbo for a lack of proper tuning devices. There's nothing wrong with what you have, but the fact of the matter remains that while there are better turbos on pump gas, there are available solutions to allow your EVO III to make excellent power on pump and methanol.

Just my .02,

Andy
Andy, I'd recommend something similar, but he clearly stated he didn't want to run meth and he would rather use stock cams and just go with a bigger turbo. I'm not sure how possible it is to get 350whp on that turbo (without cams/meth/race gas) because I really haven't done enough research on the Evo3 16g. Hopefully someone who knows for sure can chime in on this.

One suggestion I do have though is going with DSMlink instead of a chip/AFC. My car was much easier to get dialed in and running great when I switched over. It's possible to achieve your goals with the chip and an AFC but it will be much easier with a DSMlink.
 
Ludachris said:
Andy, I'd recommend something similar, but he clearly stated he didn't want to run meth and he would rather use stock cams and just go with a bigger turbo. I'm not sure how possible it is to get 350whp on that turbo (without cams/meth/race gas) because I really haven't done enough research on the Evo3 16g. Hopefully someone who knows for sure can chime in on this.

One suggestion I do have though is going with DSMlink instead of a chip/AFC. My car was much easier to get dialed in and running great when I switched over. It's possible to achieve your goals with the chip and an AFC but it will be much easier with a DSMlink.

Well yes, that's exactly what I've been getting at the whole topic. I know the turbo will do it with race gas or meth or both. But I don't want that, I want to fill up at the local gas station and be done with it. I don't think meth is a tuning device, its a suppliment (at this low power level I'd venture to say "bandaid" but that will start a new war).

However, Andy posted exactly what I wanted and was expecting. So I have 2 options for 350hp:

1. meth ($400 for snow performance stage 2) and cams ($370, BrianC to $680 HKS) = $770-$1,080

2. bigger turbo ($700 SBR G50 or $800 5031e)


You tell me which is cheaper, more hastle free, easier to tune, more reliable (makes power even when your meth tank isn't full), and has more growing room.

I can bolt on the turbo in a half hour. Installing meth injection and cams will take the weekend and probably some broken valves because I've never done cams on this motor.


Ludachris... I'm leaning towards DSM Link for obvious reasons, but I still like the idea of less frustration and less to screw up with a keydriver chip/AFC.
 
I'll leave it up to you as far as which way you want to go, but I'm a lot like Aslan in that I like to see a combo well exploited before stepping up. Either way, you still need larger injectors and a better way to tune them.

If you wanted to get very simple, you could keep what you have, crank the boost to 25-26 psi and add a bottle of NOS Race or Offroad formula to each tank. That alone will give you the equivalent of 100 octane and allow for more boost on pump. If you factor in the price of a fillup, it adds about $.70 to the cost of a gallon of gas and it's a no brainer to dump one in and fill up.

I'm not being critical in the least, but your thinking is contrary to mine. I'd rather make more power on something smaller as I see that as much more impressive. If we consider that any setup, regardless of the turbo, needs a proper complement of supporting mods to make the system work to it's optimal efficiency it become evident that you have many holes in the system. All I'm getting at is that you're nowhere near maxing what you have and there's more room.

You can choose the easy way or the longer route. Both are correct and around the same cost, but one will ultimately teach you the importance of system matching your components for peak VE while meeting your goals. If I had the choice between instant gratification and the long slow road of progression, I'd always choose the latter since the former leaves nothing to be desired. I think the poking, prodding, tunning and experimenting to find the edge are what makes tuning fun, but that's more of a philosophical issue than anything else.

Good luck in making your choice,

Andy
 
andymoraitis said:
Either way, you still need larger injectors and a better way to tune them.
Definatly not aruging with that.


Does NOS really work that well? That's an option I hadn't even considered. We tried it in my friends mostly stock Redline and it made no seat of the pants difference, but when we refilled with 93 the car ran HORRIBLE for the first two pulls, so the ECU much have changed something. I had no idea it would take 93 up to 100. I thought SCC tested it and it only took 91 up to like 93.5 and they said the effects were less on higher octane.
If it really comes out to 100 octane for $8 extra a fill, I'll do that all day long regardless of what my setup is.


Normally I'd agree with you on the philosophical issue Andy, but I'm tired of wasting time and money on this setup. I'd rather spend $1,000 on a turbo that will take me to as much power as I'll ever need or want, than to drop $1,000 on cams and meth and be limited by my small turbo.

And I am well aware of the fact that EVERYONE on this site disagrees with me on this, but I could give two sheetz because plenty of other people do. Unless you've maxed out a crazy setup and still need that extra power, meth/water/alc/pp is just a bandaid for a bigger turbo or race gas. You can accomplish the same thing with a bigger turbo. Its like trying to air down and put traction compound on 10 year old all season tires, yes its giving them more grip, yes its cheap, but why not just upgrade? If you're running your T25 with a welded shut flapper but you still want to eek out 30hp more, would you go out and buy a SMIM?
 
MyBeatGSX said:
Does NOS really work that well?

Yes it does. I've used it to up my octane and I can add 5-6 psi on the same timing and not knock. The offroad or race is clearly marked that it increases octane by 5-6 whole numbers. Stuff works, but you need to change the plugs a bit more often since they may load up with deposits. I change them every 3K anyway so it's not a big deal but octane booster does make it impossible to properly read the plugs since it creates a brownish/red tinge.

If you're insistent on just buying a turbo, get the Green, larger injectors, better fuel control and call it a day.
 
i have had good success using NOS octane booster. although for it to increase the octane rating substantially, only about 7-8 gallons of gas should be mixed with one bottle of the octane booster. by mixing this with about 7 gallons of gas i was able to lean my car out from about 11.1:1 to 11.7:1 while running as much boost as the 14b will give me without seeing any knock.
Regarding you using this with the redline. you won't see any difference in performance by just pouring the stuff in. it will just allow you to get more out of your tune on pump gas by either increasing boost, leaner afr's, or by adding timing.
 
I typically mixed mine with 10 gallons and saw plenty of octane boost. It's made for 16 gallons so upping the concentration may not do anything at all for octane increases.
 
Well I'll be adding that every fill up starting tommorow.

I know the race formula is well marked, but just to be sure we're talking about the same stuff. Its the small metal can that comes with the separate plastic nozzel and its sold at Auto Zone, etc?


As for the Redline. They have a horrible factory intercooler that heat soaks easily and they also have similar ECU programing to a WRX where the computer will aggresively advance timing until it sees knock. It actually builds a complete, separate timing map off the base map to fit whatever gas it runs on, be it lower or higher octane. Bone stock WRX's can pick up 10hp just by putting race gas in the tank.

I was under the impression that these ECUs aren't calabrated that much differently? Or do they have some target for peak timing or just aren't that aggresive.

Either way, if not for more power, it will be that much safer for the cost of only 2 1/2 gallons extra gas.
 
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