turbo upgrade time, what to go with

[vintagemuscle]

I typically mixed mine with 10 gallons and saw plenty of octane boost. It's made for 16 gallons so upping the concentration may not do anything at all for octane increases.

Is it really? I thought it says on the box to mix with 8 gallons of gas for best results. I could be wrong though.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

I'm pretty sure it says works up to 16 gallons but for best effect mix with <11 or something like that.

 

[andymoraitis]

Is it really? I thought it says on the box to mix with 8 gallons of gas for best results. I could be wrong though.

No worries. I have a bottle in the garage and it says to mix with at least 16 gallons of gas for the best results. I do know that fuel concentrates like Torco work better on 7-8 gallons (107 from 93) than they do in lower concentrations. Unfortunately it's almost double the price, but I've used it before and it works very well on high boost and high advance.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

This thread has really become a free for all huh? So here's another off topic (not that it has a topic anymore) question.


Does 2.4 sound like a good pressure ratio to use for 20psi? Or is that not enough pressure drop across the IC? I figured about 1psi drop, its a 24x12x3 bar/plate so its not long and fairly tall, it must flow pretty well.

I'm also still wondering what numbers to use for flow. I'm looking through maps with my current numbers and then assuming like 40lb/min as an estimate. Sound good, too much, too little?

Assuming 40lb/min at 2.4 (or even 2.5), this looks like a fairly good match. That would put it about 1lb/min outside of 79% and it will stay inide 79% up to what looks like 48lb/min. I'm sure 48lb/min will do a reasonable amout of power. So odd that people don't like big turbos at low (as if 20psi is low) boost. I guess the big housing/small wheel thing works well too for those numbers, compare it to the other 35R configurations on that page.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbo/TurboMaps/gt35rcompress.gif

 

[andymoraitis]

This thread has really become a free for all huh?

No, we're just offering suggestions on how to squeeze more from the current setup. As I have nothing more to add, my contributions here are pretty much done.

 

[grnchevyz]

Reading this whole post I must take a second and give kudos to pretty much everyone here. I'm looking to hit the 400-450whp over the winter so I was thinking 20g or 50-trim.

Getting lots of good idea and its going to give me a good starting point.

Anyhow, I noticed this...

A 20G would be excellent if I could find one

What is the difference between a 20g and SBR Bastard 20g with the td06 housing?
If they yield the same, maybe that would be worth looking into seeing as it can bolt right on to your current setup.

once again...good constructive, definitely ENTERTAINING post

 

[brute]

MyBeatGSX: I don't understand a few things. Please clarify.

1. You say you cannot get used turbos where you live... why should that matter? You can still buy 20G's new from various vendors. TD05, TD06, bastard, many different options, too.

2. I understand you not wanting to run race gas, because I agree with you. My Galant is a daily driver, so race gas is completely out for me as far as my street tune. However, what I don't understand is you not wanting to run water/meth injection. Later in my plans, I'm planning to run injection so I can have higher boost on the street with the terribly low octane we have here in NM.

3. You say you want something that'll provide good power now and flexibility for future mods. With this philosophy, why not get cams? You'll immediately see the difference, the install is just as hard (if not easier) than a turbo install, and for your goals later on, you'll need the cams anyway. So there's the power now and flexibility for the future. Plus, cams are cheaper than a turbo.

4. You say:

I don't think meth is a tuning device, its a suppliment (at this low power level I'd venture to say "bandaid"

I think meth injection is a tuning device. With meth injection, you can up the boost safely because you're pushing the knock threshold back. This is HUGE on a pump gas car. So with the knock threshold being different, you are able to tune timing maps (maybe even a/f's) completely different than you would on pump gas alone.

It allows you to run more boost. Just like every other mod you do. Why do you buy a new BOV instead of keeping the stock 2g? Why do you upgrade injectors? When it comes down to it, all mods are either to

A. Give you immediate power gains there on the spot
or
B. Provide you with more head room against the ceiling of certain things (IDC's, timing curves, knock, airflow, etc.). I guess you could call this thinking ahead.

Now, there are many mods that overlap these two. Cams for example. Immediate gains and allow you to upgrade much more in the future. Or how about DSM Link? I'm sure that everyone agrees with DSM Link and your current mods you could get a lot more than what you have right now. The expression "it's all in the tune" is 100% true. Then, if you decided it's still not enough, you could get a bigger turbo, and tune that with DSM Link also.

So, enough rambling. If it was up to me, this would be my priorities list (assuming everything is stable and nothing maintenance-wise was needed):

DSM Link
Injectors
Cams
Water injection
then a turbo

But then again, I share the idea that I'm not going to upgrade anything until completely necessary.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

First off, I AM getting DSM Link, I think everyone here has convinced me of that over a keydriver. I'm waiting for the local shop to get EEPROMs back in stock. But I don't want to put it in until spring. Winter is coming fast and I don't want the tuning hastle in crappy weather.


1. Like I said before, almost $1,200 is a lot of money for a brand new 20G. Its probably perfect for what I'm looking for, but some reason I can't justify spending that money on it when there are either far better turbos for the same price, or even 50 trim for almost half that. If I could find a mint condition used one in my area I'd pick it up in a second.

2 and 4. I just don't like the idea of meth, I never have and never will. I know it works many people, so good for them. I'm not a fan of tuning the engine to rely on a tank full of stuff that runs out. Its just my opinion, for this low of a power level, anything consumable is just a substitute for more appropriate supporting parts (think nitrous too).

3. In my situation, cams would be just as much as the turbo. Figure -$400 for cams or +$300 for my Evo, -$800 for a turbo. Its only a $100 difference. And I am worried about the install, I've heard cams were difficult on this car, I guess you had a different experience. I found the turbo install extremely easy. You really think cams were that easy? I'll definatly consider it if I don't have to pay someone to put them in. Did you do it the flat rate way and just ziptie the belt to the gears?

Are the Brain Crower and DKS cams any good? I found really good things about the DKS's from searching around here but haven't heard much about the BC cams.

DSM Link
Injectors
Cams
Water injection
then a turbo

Just remember. Everyone keeps leaving out the first line of my OP. My friend wants my tubro sometime soon, not in a year. That's why I'm jumping the gun. Normally I'd definatly get injectors and Link first.

 

[NosLaser]

You really think cams were that easy? I'll definatly consider it if I don't have to pay someone to put them in. Did you do it the flat rate way and just ziptie the belt to the gears?

You have to use the timing belt tool to hold tension while you unbolt the cam gears, and yes, you just zip tie the belt to the gears (or use good clips.) Cams end up being really easy if you do it that way. Well under an hour for the install.

Regards,

 

[DSM90AWD]

So, enough rambling. If it was up to me, this would be my priorities list (assuming everything is stable and nothing maintenance-wise was needed):

DSM Link
Injectors
Cams
Water injection
then a turbo

But then again, I share the idea that I'm not going to upgrade anything until completely necessary.

Having read thru most of this train-wreck , and having been in the same position as you and helping myself and others overcome seemingly mediocre performance, I'm in 100% agreement with the majority of the posters in that tuning, not a larger turbo is the best/easiest way to meet your immediate 300HP goals.

Honestly, I've not had much luck on Dynos, and a 290WHP Tune I got on a DynoDay had netted me 109MPH traps (e.g. more like 340-350WHP) so have since only relied on actual on-road/track performance #s (we're DSMs not Supras after-all ).

There was excellent advice from experienced tuners shared in this thread you'd also subscribed.

To add to Brute's list above, I'd put a true 3" exhaust before cams, and obviously ensure the car is 100% right w.r.t. cam timing, boost leaks..etc as a first step

 

[99gst_racer]

Do you know which model?

Sure. Six over, seven up. #11022

If you have the 2006 Turbonetics catalog, my compressor wheel is on page 29. Super series, part number 20576T.

My CHRA is dry, 'E' compressor cover, .63 A/R standard T3 turbine housing. The only thing I am unsure of is the turbine wheel.

And to the person that recommended Link. I'm still debating between that or a Keydriver chip. But one or the other is on the way.

I've had both. The keydriver chip is a nice product, but DEFINITELY get dsmlink. You will be happy with the purchase. Trust me.

If you're insistent on just buying a turbo, get the Green, larger injectors, better fuel control and call it a day.

Yup. (The Green, 850's, and Link is a good combo)

 

[grnchevyz]

Like I said before, almost $1,200 is a lot of money for a brand new 20G. Its probably perfect for what I'm looking for, but some reason I can't justify spending that money on it when there are either far better turbos for the same price, or even 50 trim for almost half that. If I could find a mint condition used one in my area I'd pick it up in a second.

SBR Bastard 20g TD06 Housing...$899

Isn't that waht you're looking for according to this quote?

 

[nanokpsi]

Well yes, that's exactly what I've been getting at the whole topic. I know the turbo will do it with race gas or meth or both. But I don't want that, I want to fill up at the local gas station and be done with it. I don't think meth is a tuning device, its a suppliment (at this low power level I'd venture to say "bandaid" but that will start a new war).

However, Andy posted exactly what I wanted and was expecting. So I have 2 options for 350hp:

1. meth ($400 for snow performance stage 2) and cams ($370, BrianC to $680 HKS) = $770-$1,080

2. bigger turbo ($700 SBR G50 or $800 5031e)


You tell me which is cheaper, more hastle free, easier to tune, more reliable (makes power even when your meth tank isn't full), and has more growing room.

I can bolt on the turbo in a half hour. Installing meth injection and cams will take the weekend and probably some broken valves because I've never done cams on this motor.


Ludachris... I'm leaning towards DSM Link for obvious reasons, but I still like the idea of less frustration and less to screw up with a keydriver chip/AFC.

The problem is your not going to get 350whp on pump w/o cams by using a bolt on 50 trim.
I had never done cams before either, but I did it myself while keeping the timing belt on. Now I can probably swap cams in the car in 45 minutes.
On a 2g w/o cams you're probably looking at 300ish whp(+ or -) with a bolt on 50 trim.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

^It has a full 6 bolt swap so I'm not sure if that still applies...


The Bastard 20G is a 20G wheel in a TD05H housing right? From what I've heard from everyone on here, its the small housing that's limiting, not the Evo compressor wheel.

DSM90AWD, interesting that you should mention the exhaust, because everyone is fairly split on that. Local people says its a huge restriction and almost everyone here says its none at all. I'm probably going to dyno with it disconnected just to see what happens.

And yea, I have no luck with dynos either. I've raced cars that trap over 110mph (CTS-V, s/c 350Z, my friends Civic) from 30+mph rolls and pull on them with no problem. I brought this up in another topic, but the dyno I use is a very rare 248/248 Dynojet (2 or 3 in the country I think), so I don't know how comparable my numbers are to everyone elses.

 

[nanokpsi]

With the 1g stuff you could get a little farther. Its up to you. I would do a cheapy cast t3 manifold and a .63 garrett 50 trim. Then get a good tuning system going. You will be very happy.

 

[Jon Lane]

Sure. Six over, seven up. #11022

If you have the 2006 Turbonetics catalog, my compressor wheel is on page 29. Super series, part number 20576T.

My CHRA is dry, 'E' compressor cover, .63 A/R standard T3 turbine housing. The only thing I am unsure of is the turbine wheel.

This is why I read these threads. Thanks. Just to confirm, would you say that this unit falls someplace between the Mits E3-16 and 20?

If the OP doesn't mind my asking, my plans are similar but not matching, and I too want something beyond a 16G but yet sensible, reliable, and reasonably affordable: Looks like I fell into a 2.1 liter with a ported 2G head, Crower springs and retainers, and BC272's for the street. It won't be be raced or even launched; just a highway car with a wide powerband, lots of response, and at least 350hp, but without a ton of lag.

The name of the game for me is a combination of powerband and that reliability we want from daily drivers on 93. Frankly, I'm asking what's the smallest turbo for such a combination, which I figure is a lot like the OP asking what's a somewhat oversized turbo for a 2.0 if the E3-16 isn't enough. Am I seeing this correctly?

Thanks again.

Oh, and what's involved with converting a fuel system to E85? Maybe they'll start pumping that stuff out here and I want to be ready to take advantage.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Here's the reality of a larger turbo at the same boost....


This is the Evo III, both at 35lb/min where I'm currently running it and at 40lb/min were it will need to be running. Note that turning up the boost WILL NOT bring it back into better efficiency. Its not more efficient at high boost, it can just be turned very fast.

20psi peak efficiency,

At 35lb/min: 72%
At 40lb/min: 68%

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

This is a generic T04E 50 trim, same plot points.

20psi peak efficiency,

At 35lb/min: 78%
At 40lb/min: 75%

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Now also keep in mind. With the 50 trim at "only" 20psi, much of the mid RPM range will be dead across the peak efficiency island. Who said this turbo needed 25psi+ to be efficient? Honestly I think that 20psi/40lb plot is about the best place you could ever ask to be on any compressor chart. You're powerband is going to come up and go across the heart of compressors efficiency... I really don't see a map that better matches a 20psi and 350hp target.

You all enjoy the meth injection and the far right side of the Evo's map, I'm buying that SCM5031e.

Hell I'd be dead in the center island running the power and boost I'm running now. Most of the high RPM will still be in that peak island

 

[grnchevyz]

The Bastard 20G is a 20G wheel in a TD05H housing right? From what I've heard from everyone on here, its the small housing that's limiting, not the Evo compressor wheel.

You can get it in the TD06 housing for an extra $100 which makes it $899 for the turbo...if that's the housing your looking for then that's a price which will allow you to get BC cams also for the price of the FP Green...of course, I have no personal experience with the Bastard 20g but I was going to do much research seeing as it was very appealing to me in terms of power/price value.

 

[compression]

Since this has just become and open debate topic for the future reference of anyone shopping for turbos... why not elaborate?

They did this on pump? And at what boost? Using meth/water? I'm curious now.

I fully believe it will make WELL over 350hp on 116 leaded, cams, and with some form of injection, I never doubt that once. Those were just things I don't want.

I didn't rule it out based on other people on the board, but based on a large number of local people running it and only being able to get in the 280-330hp range. Any that made over 300hp has had a real struggle. I'm not knocking anyones credibility, but I value the opinions and experiences of people I know personally way over that of random people on the internet.


Here's an interesting question. My profile is completely up do date, what would you suggest for me to hit 350awhp with this turbo? (if you say race gas then you're just trying to piss me off) Keep in mind I'm already running 20psi, even though its actually more because at 6,000rpm it starts creeping to like 22-23 and peak power is made in that area. Also keep in mind that cams will cost me as much or more than a bigger turbo (I'm selling the Evo for $300) and have equal or greater low end killing effect without increasing the growth room of the setup.
So, show of hands. Who thinks an Evo III will do 350awhp on 93 octane, no injection, and stock cams?.

i dont know about 93 octane , no injection and stock cams but its been done plenty of times.

http://www.slowboyracing.com/downloads/dyno graphs/Evo-III-16G/E316G Tubular vs. Cast.JPG

there is also a thread floating around tuners, where they compared quite a few different turbos together i will try to find it.

 

[compression]

here we are , this thread has a lot of useful information, its mainly on internally gated turbo's but its good

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208481

and in their turbo testing , they mhi evo 3 16g made more whp then their g-50 , go figure.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

I've read that thread thoroughly. Don't bother finding it, it will only support what I've been saying all along.

That engine was built to high heavens, and come on, peak power at 5,000rpm? Is that really how you want to make power? Even the 350ish pull doesn't have a power curve that's even remotely to my liking. Look at that chart, by redline its making the same power it was on the low boost pull. That tells me that that turbo is DONE at the low boost pull, THAT is maxed out. Can it be pushed further? Sure. Why would you want to. Get something that was meant to do it and hold power to redline.

Look at the chart I posted for the Evo. Imagine how off it they would have to be for 400awhp worth of airflow. That's why they and people like ShapeGSX get boost fall off at higher rpm. That's rediculous to push the poor tiny turbo that far, I don't care if it makes power or not. THAT my friends is halfass and hacking. That's not getting the most out of a setup. Unless you want the title of highest power/fastest Evo III in the town/state/country/world, there's just no good reason to do it.

You all enjoy the meth injection and the far right side of the Evo's map, I'm buying that SCM5031e

 

[wishihadatalon]

I've read that thread thoroughly. Don't bother finding it, it will only support what I've been saying all along.

That engine was built to high heavens, and come on, peak power at 5,000rpm? Is that really how you want to make power? Even the 350ish pull doesn't have a power curve that's even remotely to my liking. Look at that chart, by redline its making the same power it was on the low boost pull. That tells me that that turbo is DONE at the low boost pull, THAT is maxed out. Can it be pushed further? Sure. Why would you want to. Get something that was meant to do it and hold power to redline.

Look at the chart I posted for the Evo. Imagine how off it they would have to be for 400awhp worth of airflow. That's why they and people like ShapeGSX get boost fall off at higher rpm. That's rediculous to push the poor tiny turbo that far, I don't care if it makes power or not. THAT my friends is halfass and hacking. That's not getting the most out of a setup. Unless you want the title of highest power/fastest Evo III in the town/state/country/world, there's just no good reason to do it.

That is not half assed or hacking. That is making the most of something you have. I deffinately didn't win the stock appearing class at the shootout by hacking my car together or tuning it half assed. As for this reliability you are searching for. 2yrs and no problems with any of the power train and that includes when I learned to tune. And my learning curve is like a big turbo supra dyno sheet.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

To each his own.

If you like spending an eternity of tuning time and lots of money in supporting mods to get big power from a small turbo, then that's just what you like. Maybe you like the challenge, I don't know. I'm not here for a challenge, I just want my car to go fast reliably and for the minimum cost of doing it right. I'm not knocking you, its just not what I like to do. I'd rather have an appropriatly sized turbo, only the nessesary supporting mods and a minimum of required tuning time.

Now I have the maps up there so no one can argue that a 50 trim is overkill or that an Evo III is efficient for what I'm looking for.
So now it becomes a moral battle? Everyone is going to switch stratagies to telling me that beating the life out of a tiny turbo is the "DSMer correct" (politically correct) way to do things? Because we don't upgrade turbos until we spin them so fast that the wheels explode? We'll upgrade everything else, SMIM, AEM EMS, built motors, built heads, massive intercoolers, meth/alc/water injections, nitrous, etc.... all to make power from an undersized turbo... but we refuse to upgrade the turbo itself until every single last resource on earth has been totally exhausted? Why? Who deemed this the DSMer way? Why do we have people pushing farther with GT42's? Why not try to break 1,000hp on a 60-1 first, then maybe move to a GT35R and try to do 1,500hp with that?


The logic of everyone here is simply the opposite of my own. I say upgrade the turbo first, its the biggest chain in the power making link and has the most effect on what's going on. Why not up that first? Its like trying to build a skyscrapper on the foundation of your house. Sure you can get a ton of support to prop it up there and it will work fine. But why not just get an appropriate foundation and you won't need all that other crap. You can built 10x higher than you originally wanted and then you might legitimately need that support stuff.


Don't forget, I'm not knocking it and I'm not saying it can't be done. I just don't understand YOUR logic.

 

[99gst_racer]

This is why I read these threads. Thanks. Just to confirm, would you say that this unit falls someplace between the Mits E3-16 and 20?

I cannot comment on that. I have zero real world experience with the 20G.

My B16G @ 23 psi felt faster than my 50-trim @ 15 PSI. The 16G is not bad. But for overall and top-end power, I like my 50-trim more.

I would assume the 20G would perform very similar to a 50-trim, but I cannot say for sure.

 

[wishihadatalon]

To each his own.

If you like spending an eternity of tuning time and lots of money in supporting mods to get big power from a small turbo, then that's just what you like. Maybe you like the challenge, I don't know. I'm not here for a challenge, I just want my car to go fast reliably and for the minimum cost of doing it right. I'm not knocking you, its just not what I like to do. I'd rather have an appropriatly sized turbo, only the nessesary supporting mods and a minimum of required tuning time.

Now I have the maps up there so no one can argue that a 50 trim is overkill or that an Evo III is efficient for what I'm looking for.
So now it becomes a moral battle? Everyone is going to switch stratagies to telling me that beating the life out of a tiny turbo is the "DSMer correct" (politically correct) way to do things? Because we don't upgrade turbos until we spin them so fast that the wheels explode? We'll upgrade everything else, SMIM, AEM EMS, built motors, built heads, massive intercoolers, meth/alc/water injections, nitrous, etc.... all to make power from an undersized turbo... but we refuse to upgrade the turbo itself until every single last resource on earth has been totally exhausted? Why? Who deemed this the DSMer way? Why do we have people pushing farther with GT42's? Why not try to break 1,000hp on a 60-1 first, then maybe move to a GT35R and try to do 1,500hp with that?


The logic of everyone here is simply the opposite of my own. I say upgrade the turbo first, its the biggest chain in the power making link and has the most effect on what's going on. Why not up that first? Its like trying to build a skyscrapper on the foundation of your house. Sure you can get a ton of support to prop it up there and it will work fine. But why not just get an appropriate foundation and you won't need all that other crap. You can built 10x higher than you originally wanted and then you might legitimately need that support stuff.


Don't forget, I'm not knocking it and I'm not saying it can't be done. I just don't understand YOUR logic.

For the record my times were on stock block, stock head, arp head studs, stock hg, stock intake mani, ported 2g mani, 3" exhaust, front mount, and a $200 mega squirt stand alone system. Nothing fancy just parts that work. I wouldn't have posted previously if you wouldn't have called people that push a turbo to its true power potential hacks and half asses Perhaps learning how to talk to people might get you posts other than the ones that have been posted here.