turbo upgrade time, what to go with

[MyBeatGSX]

To many people base there cars with power Goal


How about this, I would like to make 350WHP this year on pump gas and still have room to grow later on in the future. What are your opinions and what do you think is best for my goals because I know my EVOIII isnt going to cut it in the long run

BECAUSE YOU JUST TOLD ME THAT AN EVO III WILL DO 350HP!!!


I can base my goals on whatever I damn well please. If my goal is an airflow target, WHO CARES. Its my perogative to make whatever I want as my goal.

No Nos, you're right. I want a slow as balls car with the biggest turbo I can fit under the hood so I can tell everyone I'm running a huge turbo.

I want a turbo that will be in the middle of its range at 350hp, that's it. You don't need to know why I want it, I don't have to explain it to you, you don't need to like it, it doesn't have to be what you would do, just answer the damn question. Is this a tech site or a counseling service?

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

I'll throw in my .02, even though it may not help in your particular selection, it'd give you an idea.

I ran a 60-1/T3 turbine in a bolt-on housing, FP2 cams, stock 1G IM, and had mid 40's lbs/min range at ~25PSI (I *think*. I'll have to dig up some logs.) This spooled roughly ~4500 in third gear, 25PSI.

Now, on my SC61 GT40/T350, .63 T3 setup, only now with a SMIM, I see spool roughly in the same area (maybe a few hundred RPM later,) and I'm flowing ~50lbs/min on pump gas at the same (maybe less - again, I need to check old logs) PSI The car isn't a low-end monster, but it is absolutely driveable on the street (I mean, it's my daily driver to school, work, whatever,) and is ridiculously fast at WOT.

I'm in your mind-set - I wanted a turbo slightly bigger than my max goal, and something that I wouldn't have to run with race gas/injections/nitrous to make power. And, if I ever get around to building my spare block, I still have a turbo I can run race gas on and make more power. After seeing when the SC61 spooled in comparison to the 60-1, I couldn't imagine ever buying another 60-1. In fact, as far as spool trade off is concerned, I would probably jump from the 50-trim sized stuff staight to a GT35-sized turbo, just because I sincerely don't feel spool is that hurt, and that the middle turbos (54, 57, 60, whatever trim) will more than likely support far less power while only spooling slightly earlier.

This was all done on a stock, original 7.8:1 block and 93 octane.

Again, just my .02 regarding "big" turdbos.

Jesse

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Thank you for that. My thoughts exactly.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

Oh, and by the way, I also was flowing 32 lbs/min on a 14b at ~16.5PSI and pump gas with a 23* timing map, so I know a little about t00ning and making a bit of power on small turbos.

And no, I'm not saying those are great numbers, I'm just saying that some people don't see 30-plus lbs/min at 20-some PSI.

 

[brute]

If you want my honest opinion, get a "50-trim." I'll call it that because I can't think of a better name. I guess I could say get a T3/T04 hybrid with a 54mm compressor wheel (2.123" ind. 3.000" exd.). That will easily net 350 to the wheels. For my specific application, I plotted my vehicle on the compressor map, and at 20psi, I'm right in the center of the 78% efficiency island.

With that said, however, you keep sending us mixed messages as to what you want. You say you want 300 at the wheels right now, but be capable of 350 in a few months. Then you continue to say that you want more horsepower later on, and you're going to upgrade things as they come. But then you say that you hate the idea of upgrading something only when you break it, which happens to be my philosophy. I also have the philosophy of doing something while I'm in there, so I don't have to worry about it later. "Preventative maintenance," as some call it. But that's a different story. You're also saying that money isn't an issue to you, and that you want the motor to last. So why not just drop $10k on a fully-built, race-prepped crate motor from FFWD or Buschur? You can have all that motor, and drive it around on the street with 300whp and not have to worry about a thing.

So I pose the question to you: What are you overall goals with the car? What level do you plan to be at when you're absolutely done modding?

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

...when you're absolutely done modding?

I don't know what that phrase means; care to elaborate?

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Those were my RESPONSES. That wasn't in my OP. I was immediately pissed off to see that within the first 3 posts, someone had already not read through what I had written and ironically recommended the turbo I have and hate. Anyone that's read any of my post in topics involving turbo selection knows how much that pisses me off because I was stuck with turbo because of idiots hailing the 400hp SBR Evo III and making it sound like it did it no sweat. Like an idiot myself I didn't research enough just took their word for it and now here I am in the market for another turbo 4 months later.

My goal is 300hp for this summer, I may or may not be at that already, I need to redyno (numbers to the left were on 12-13* of peak timing and a horrible tune, its running much better now). I want 350hp by next summer (new goal). That's all I forsee going for at least the next year. But you know how it goes, no one is ever done modding. I'll get 350 and want more, and I don't want to have to rebuy a turbo for that.

I do plan on getting a fully built long block in the spring and I want my new setup completely done for late next summer. I'm not looking for a race car, just a bullet proof street car than I can wail on and not worry about it.

Let's forget the pervious question. New questions, new issue...

1. What 50 trim (or close equivalant) is everyone running.

2. What did you pay (new/used).

3. How much power are you making on what octane, boost, tuning method etc.

I plotted my vehicle on the compressor map, and at 20psi, I'm right in the center of the 78% efficiency island.

Perfect, so why didn't you just respond with that to my original post.

I think this concept of not trying to tell people what they want or what they like, needs to be extended to other topics as well. Don't read into peoples' OPs, just answer their questions.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

Let forget the pervious question. New questions, new issue...

1. What 50 trim (or close equivalant) is everyone running.

2. What did you pay (new/used).

3. How much power are you making on what octane, boost, tuning method etc.

If I were going 50-trim-sized, it would be a Green for sure. While others may perform similarly, the Green is proven over and over, and is backed by FP

I was going to mention that the Green has gone 120's on pump, but I believe someone on here with a PTE bolt-on 50 has also went 12x. 122, perhaps.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

So the Green seems to be the magical 50 huh? What's different about it?

The PTE one is looking good too because I can get it and an external gate for the price of the Green. I've also had good experience with PTE turbos so its a name I trust (not that FP isn't trustworthy). Plus I don't plan on pushing very hard, so I wonder if the Green might not be nessesary for the extra cost.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

Well, I (and a bunch of locals) have done fine with PTE's, but I thought somewhere you said money wasn't an option, which, in that case, I retract the Green and add a 3052.

However, a PTE fitty should be fine.

 

[brute]

Perfect, so why didn't you just respond with that to my original post.

I did respond to your original post. However, you posted two turbos, neither of which were "50-trims." I was comparing the turbos you posted to a "50-trim" when I asked about paying more for slower spool.

I think this concept of not trying to tell people what they want or what they like, needs to be extended to other topics as well.

Are you kidding me? This site is as great as it is because people can ask whatever they want. They can think they have a stupid question, and when they ask it, they can get it answered without being completely flamed. They even get helpful suggestions to help direct them in the right path. Your attitude really needs to change. Just because you have 1,xxx posts or have been a member for xx months, doesn't make you better than anyone else. You weren't born with the knowledge you have now. You've learned it because people have taken the time to teach you.

Again, if you don't want opinions, don't ask the question. Everyone was trying to make sure you get the best bang for your buck and that you didn't waste time/money on something you weren't going to like. Then you have the nerve to get mad at them? Even have a public disagreement with a wiseman? C'mon now... We don't need this. And if the boards are making you so mad, go spend all the money you have (since it's not an option) on whatever the hell YOU think is the best.

I'm done in this thread. Good luck on whatever you try to do.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Money isn't a big factor in the decision, but I don't want to just waste it either. $1,200 is a big jump from $800, I'm not sure if its justified for only a 350hp or even 400hp target. But you tell me. I know its capable of going faster than an SCM, but is it really worth $400 more for the power I'm looking for?

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Are you kidding me? This site is as great as it is because people can ask whatever they want. They can think they have a stupid question, and when they ask it, they can get it answered without being completely flamed. They even get helpful suggestions to help direct them in the right path. Your attitude really needs to change. Just because you have 1,xxx posts or have been a member for xx months, doesn't make you better than anyone else. You weren't born with the knowledge you have now. You've learned it because people have taken the time to teach you.

Again, if you don't want opinions, don't ask the question. Everyone was trying to make sure you get the best bang for your buck and that you didn't waste time/money on something you weren't going to like. Then you have the nerve to get mad at them? Even have a public disagreement with a wiseman? C'mon now... We don't need this. And if the boards are making you so mad, go spend all the money you have (since it's not an option) on whatever the hell YOU think is the best.

I'm done in this thread. Good luck on whatever you try to do.

No, actually no one offered helpful suggestions to get me the best bang for the buck, they flamed me because they don't like what I want to do.

I agree with you about the attitude of the board and no where did I say I was better than everyone else. I specifically stated the Evo III was gone and that I wanted something bigger and specifically stated that I didn't want anyone suggesting it or even moving off topic in any way (injectors). But still everyone went right to it in spite of what I said.

Its one thing if someone comes on here and says, "I need a turbo for 500hp" and you give them you're opinions on 500hp turbos. But its quite another for someone to come and say "I need a 500hp turbo. I already tired, this this and this one and I hate them, give me some other options. Stay on topic please." and then everyone immediately goes off and tells them they're wrong and that this and this turbo is just fine and if your experience with it didn't go well then you're just incompetant (sp?) or your setup sucks. That's rediculous. And then you have the nerve to make it out to be my fault.

Not once did I say I was better than anyone else because of my join date, post count, rep points, etc. You brought that up. But while we're on the subject, use that as an indication. If someone with 3 rep bars, 1,000+ posts and a year and half old join date makes a thread, then at least give them the benefit of a doubt that they know they what they want/like better than you do. This wasn't a topic with a brand new DSM owner that thought they knew what they wanted. I've driven everything from a K03 to a T67 equivalant, I know what big and small turbos feel like and I know what lag is. If I specifically state that I don't mind lag and want an oversized turbo because its my personal preference, I don't care if you're a wiseman or Buschur himself, who are you to question what I like and prefer? If you disagree with my choice, that's your opinion, so just don't post. Don't tell me that I'm an idiot because I couldn't get the power out of my current turbo.
s
We aren't debating tech facts, we're debating drivability preferences, you have no right to tell someone else what they like and don't like. I don't care if I asked you to recommend a fuel system that will support 1,500hp for my 250hp car or if you could tell me your favorite breakfast food so I could stuff it into my turbo because I thought it was hungry. If that's all I wanted to know, just answer the question, I don't know nearly as much as most people here but I'm far from a newb.

 

[GVR4592]

Ok so back on topic. I must've missed it, but what's your goal with the car, and what turbo's are not an option?

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Ok so back on topic. I must've missed it, but what's your goal with the car, and what turbo's are not an option?

I don't blame you for not reading though.


I want something that won't be working hard to make 350awhp, that should be somewhere in the middle of its range.

The Evo III is absolutely out (I have it already), but I have a feeling you wouldn't recommend that anyway, even though everyone else tried to.

Needs to be pump gas (93), no meth/alc/water injection to hit the power.

Bolt on would be nice but isn't a must have, I'll convert if nessesary, my friend makes manifolds so its no big deal.

You can recommend a 20G if you really want, but I don't want to buy used parts online and they're very hard to find around here, so I'm open to it but its really not an option.

I think that's about it, fairly simple. Amazing it caused this huge war.

I think through the more intelligent posts its been narrowed to a 50 trim. Now its just a matter of which one.

 

[GVR4592]

FP Green

 

[brute]

20g's can still be bought new from some places. The good thing about these is they bolt on to everything you have. The bad thing is that they're pretty expensive.

"50-trims" are all the same, the only thing different is the turbine wheel and housings it's attached to. You can buy a full Garrett one from PTE or Turbonetics, but you'll need a new manifold and o2 housing. You can buy one from Bullseye or SBR that bolts on to the stuff you already have.

Garrett housings "generally" flow more than the bolt-on housings, but there's an exception: FP. The FP bolt-on housings are custom designed for their turbos. These are great, but pricey.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

You can recommend a 20G if you really want, but I don't want to buy used parts online and they're very hard to find around here, so I'm open to it but its really not an option.

Not that I would buy a 20g, but you can still buy these new, can't you? Unless I missed the memo stating MHI took them off of every market

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

Damnit, beat me to it on the 20g issue

FP's housings are only used for the FP3X line though, to my knowledge. The Green/Red take TD06 housings.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Yea I'm not don't think the price of a new 20G is worth it, $1,100 for a td06.

Now I need to debate Garret vs Mitsu. I might as well go Garret now because I'll have to get a new manifold for the external gate anyway. But then again, that just gives me too many more turbos to pick through.

So I guess its pretty much unnanimous (sp?) for the Green. Time to start pricing out external gate setups.



On a side note... if anyone reading this in the future looks at the post times and realizes that every other post is me throughout the entire day. I do not normally spend all day on the internet. I'm sick and stuck inside today.

 

[brute]

I vote for FP Green if you have the money. If you were looking to spend a little less, I'd say go with Turbonetics for sure.

 

[vintagemuscle]

if you have the funds to get a full garrett setup i would highly recommend it because then you will have a unlimited choices of turbos in the future. also the larger turbine housing should be able to help you get more out of your setup on pump gas.
for the price of a full garrett 50 trim, manifold, and o2 housing wouldn't be much more than just getting an fp green.
Treadstone makes a cast manifold identical to the turbonetics manifold for$300. Match that with a Victory Performance o2 housing for $280 along with the 50 trim around $800 and you'll have yourself a nice setup.

 

[CanadianTSi]

Most bolt-on 50 trims should perform pretty much the same, Mine went 121mph on pump gas and its neither a Green or a PTE.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Wow, too many good and conflicting choices.

What's involved in a full Garret swap aside from manifold and O2 housing? That might not be a bad idea because then I can sell my fairly new Evo manifold and tubular O2 along with the turbo and that's at least another $200.

I'm assuming new feed and return lines maybe? I'll probably need a new intake no matter what because mine is just big enough for the 16G. What other things would I need to buy right away to get the car running (obviously injectors and that stuff can come later).

 

[NosLaser]

Aside from that I asked for recommendations from personal experience with larger turbos in the 350hp range. I did not asked for opinions. I asked 3 pointed and specific questions and for names of 350hp turbos (Evo III excluded because its not a 350hp turbo), nothing more.

***admin edited - hostile comments removed***

When you ask for recommendations on a 350hp turbo, you are gonna get JUST that. Most people on this board who know what they are doing WOULDN'T go to something as large as you are describing to make only 350hp. And for the last time, YES, an EVO III IS a 350HP turbo!

There are a lot of things you don't really understand about how a turbo works. If you set the car up to run, say 15 pounds of boost or whatever with a larger turbo such as a 50 trim that is happiest around 23-25+ pounds of boost, it's gonna spool a LOT slower than one could normally set a 50 trim up to spool. I think you should set yourself a different goal, rather than saying you want 300-350 HP with a big turbo. It just honestly makes ZERO sense, and it's the reason why people are having such a hard time recommending the PERFECT turbo; because nobody else in their right mind wants to spend the extra cash on a bigger turbo just so they can have a car that's slower than a 16g car with NO powerband!

In this same thread you say you want to do things right, not do them half-assed, and you want this big turbo for whatever reason, but then you post smilies when you see the price. So which is it man??

Regards,