Tubular front k-member/sub-frame design

[snowborder714]

And you will always find the interest drop off if the price is higher than a couple hundred dollars. If you've ever watched a group buy thread, there's about 10x more people "in" at the beginning, with the stipulation of "as long as the price is good/low". That is normal and people who engage in these types of projects know that going into them. It's the nature of the community and just something people have to deal with when making more custom parts.

 

[C_Keagy]

Don't like the price? Go buy your own tools and equipment and make your own. If you want one you'll pay for one.

 

[91stocker]

And you will always find the interest drop off if the price is higher than a couple hundred dollars. If you've ever watched a group buy thread, there's about 10x more people "in" at the beginning, with the stipulation of "as long as the price is good/low". That is normal and people who engage in these types of projects know that going into them. It's the nature of the community and just something people have to deal with when making more custom parts.

Man it would be very disappointing to set up a jig and get the fitment perfect for every unit to only produce one,two, or even three pieces.

 

[snowborder714]

Look at gixxerdrew's aero package. He produced the molds and then made 4-5 kits in addition to his own - that's it. It's the same deal there. Not everyone can afford to pay the $4k he was asking for the kit. I would have loved to have one, but it's just too much money for me. However, with all the R&D, time, and effort various parties put into making that package happen, it just would not have been worth it to him to sell it for any less. Personally, I think that's a damn good price for a functioning package and not something that just changes the looks. It'll be the same thing for these parts. It sucks, but sometimes it's just the way things work out.

 

[91stocker]

Don't like the price? Go buy your own tools and equipment and make your own.

I have my own equipment, thanks though. Even have a jig for motorcycle frames that could be adapted for something like this.

But for 1200 you could buy your own equipment and material and still take a pretty girl out to benihanas for dinner with a happy ending.

If you want one you'll pay for one.

Not for 1200 i wont be. I will be getting a quote from the two respectable fab shops local to me, just for kicks. I've done some work with the one and was very impressed. But that wont be till monday.

Personally, I think that's a damn good price for a functioning package and not something that just changes the looks.

I absolutely agree with that. I cant imagine the amount of r&d that went into the aero kit. Its amazing that he offered a real deal kit that will give the buyer a real advantage. Props to him for that.

With the k though, i just dont see that much r&d, atleast not with the material itself. Its all pretty basic ideas and if your not 100% with a certain part, just go over kill for another couple bucks.

 

[m1nd64m3]

Man it would be very disappointing to set up a jig and get the fitment perfect for every unit to only produce one,two, or even three pieces.

Spreading the r&d over fewer units means it will be more expensive, but since you are too cheap to buy this and fail to understand what goes into it and the pricing of such a piece maybe you should move along instead of adding more nonsense to the discussion.

 

[91stocker]

Spreading the r&d over fewer units means it will be more expensive,

Thanks for repeating what ive been saying, and adding your own very important contribution to this discussion.

 

[JohnTSI]

I would buy one at $1200 if it saves that much weight. My reservations would never be price with chassis fabrication its will it be strong enough to hold together pass after pass. I am not gonna put something in to save $400 and have it fail at 170mph.

 

[BOOZTDSM]

shoot me in the face ### .... after reading this thread i see a cheap not so smart dsmer .... might as well go to hondas and sticker your car up . 400 bucks can get you a bunch of stickers and you dont have to pay a lot of r&d .

 

[turbotalon1g]

I would buy one at $1200 if it saves that much weight. My reservations would never be price with chassis fabrication its will it be strong enough to hold together pass after pass. I am not gonna put something in to save $400 and have it fail at 170mph.

Perfect reasoning, price isn't bad. Just needs to be tested IMO.

Sorry but the discussion about price and R&D in here is absolutely disgusting and sadly a representation of what our poor cars will be subjected to as they fall in price.

Everyone against the price obviously doesnt understand we need to be appreciative of people making products we should of had years ago and people trying to call out against R&D have obviously never fabbed up anything worth a damn.

I'll try and get a hold of vassil in the spring, winter has set in here in MN salt is everywhere.

 

[91stocker]

shoot me in the face ### .... after reading this thread i see a cheap not so smart dsmer .... might as well go to hondas and sticker your car up . 400 bucks can get you a bunch of stickers and you dont have to pay a lot of r&d .

Chill out kid, this is a discussion thread. This thread was dead and gone till i brought it back. So your welcome.

The thread died a year ago after a price of 1200 was mentioned. Thats all i was trying to say. Thats the point i brought up.

I also was requesting a more reasonably priced "street" version for the average dsmer that doesnt trap "170mph".

I would buy one at $1200 if it saves that much weight.

Iirc i believe the weight loss was around 30lbs. Most likely less for the final version and its going to need paint or powdercoating which adds a little bit of weight also

 

[Ludachris]

I'll tell you this - I certainly wouldn't buy a k-member from anyone I didn't think put many hours of planning and testing into the design. Chassis design requires a driver to put a LOT of trust in the fab guy. If a turbo goes out because of bad wheel design, or if an intake manifold cracks due to poor design, the results are typically just money. Compare that to the potentially catastrophic results of a poorly designed chassis piece like a k-member or a control arm - especially for those of us who will be driving on twisty mountain roads and/or tracking our cars. These parts are the most important performance parts on our cars.

Weight savings are great, and I have to be able to afford it... but strength, rigidity and reliability are the most important aspects. I want to know that hours upon hours went into designing the piece and testing that design. I don't want something that was simply drawn up and welded together. Proper triangulation and connection points should be obvious. Tubing thickness, the bends, etc, should all show careful planning. I've seen a couple designs floating around here in the past that made me wonder if the fabricator knew enough about all of this. Testing should be done. You pay for all of that. I want to pay for all of that. Maybe I'm just strange.

 

[twicks69]

I completely agree with you Chris. Tested and proven quality is much more important than price or how fast you can bang them out.

The few here that actually care for a quality design will pay for it. This is a very low production volume piece and should be expected that it will cost more than some Jeg's/Summit tubular Mustang cross-member that is laughable at best. There is a reason why they can bang them out cheap -- volume and simplicity. I am not saying that ours is insanely complex, but the suspension geometry is extremely important to have correct if you relocate pickup points. Weight is a bonus, rigidity is priority.

I'll tell you this - I certainly wouldn't buy a k-member from anyone I didn't think put many hours of planning and testing into the design. Chassis design requires a driver to put a LOT of trust in the fab guy. If a turbo goes out because of bad wheel design, or if an intake manifold cracks due to poor design, the results are typically just money. Compare that to the potentially catastrophic results of a poorly designed chassis piece like a k-member or a control arm - especially for those of us who will be driving on twisty mountain roads and/or tracking our cars. These parts are the most important performance parts on our cars.

Weight savings are great, and I have to be able to afford it... but strength, rigidity and reliability are the most important aspects. I want to know that hours upon hours went into designing the piece and testing that design. I don't want something that was simply drawn up and welded together. Proper triangulation and connection points should be obvious. Tubing thickness, the bends, etc, should all show careful planning. I've seen a couple designs floating around here in the past that made me wonder if the fabricator knew enough about all of this. Testing should be done. You pay for all of that. I want to pay for all of that. Maybe I'm just strange.

 

[greengoblin]

I'll tell you this - I certainly wouldn't buy a k-member from anyone I didn't think put many hours of planning and testing into the design. Chassis design requires a driver to put a LOT of trust in the fab guy. If a turbo goes out because of bad wheel design, or if an intake manifold cracks due to poor design, the results are typically just money. Compare that to the potentially catastrophic results of a poorly designed chassis piece like a k-member or a control arm - especially for those of us who will be driving on twisty mountain roads and/or tracking our cars. These parts are the most important performance parts on our cars.

Weight savings are great, and I have to be able to afford it... but strength, rigidity and reliability are the most important aspects. I want to know that hours upon hours went into designing the piece and testing that design. I don't want something that was simply drawn up and welded together. Proper triangulation and connection points should be obvious. Tubing thickness, the bends, etc, should all show careful planning. I've seen a couple designs floating around here in the past that made me wonder if the fabricator knew enough about all of this. Testing should be done. You pay for all of that. I want to pay for all of that. Maybe I'm just strange.

I completely agree with you Chris. Tested and proven quality is much more important than price or how fast you can bang them out.

The few here that actually care for a quality design will pay for it. This is a very low production volume piece and should be expected that it will cost more than some Jeg's/Summit tubular Mustang cross-member that is laughable at best. There is a reason why they can bang them out cheap -- volume and simplicity. I am not saying that ours is insanely complex, but the suspension geometry is extremely important to have correct if you relocate pickup points. Weight is a bonus, rigidity is priority.

These two post sum up exactly how I feel about the topic. Thanks for getting here first and doing all the typing for me.

Well said guys.


Kevin

 

[1qkfwd]

I also was requesting a more reasonably priced "street" version for the average dsmer that doesnt trap "170mph".

I would want the same quality on my street car as I would want on my 170 mph race car. Do you want to hit one pot hole and have something get tweaked due to cutting cost??

Iirc i believe the weight loss was around 30lbs. Most likely less for the final version and its going to need paint or powdercoating which adds a little bit of weight also

30 lbs is alot to lose when you cant cut any more weight off the car.

 

[J_HEATH]

Sad Vassel fell off the face of the earth. I was seriously interested in one of these. If anyone decides to make a quality piece I'd be interested and willing to pay the high price unlike some tight wads.

I also agree with what was said, weight reduction is a plus but ridigity, and reliablilty are whats most important. A chromoly front subframe would be great since a lot of DSMs subframes are rusted and even after pot blasting you have pits and you question the strength or life span. Also it would make it alot easier to work on the motor and such under the car or on a lift. A plus would be to be able to shed some weight and to ad some rigidy and stiffness to the chassis at the same time.

 

[99gst_racer]

Vassil did make one of them. I wonder if he has plans to test it for a while before producing more?

 

[91stocker]

Vassil did make one of them. I wonder if he has plans to test it for a while before producing more?

Was there any word on what the "final" product comprised of? Options, extra goodies, etc ?

 

[99gst_racer]

Nothing that I saw or heard about. His thread on NABR has been dead for a few months.

Last I knew, it still needed to be assembly welded, still needed double shear brackets, and there wasn't yet provisions for a steering rack or sway bar.

 

[1997_GSX]

Tell me where you are going to find a TIG Welder, Argon tank, tubing bender, tubing notcher, chop saw, grinder, wire wheel, material for a jig, Filler wire for $1200, maybe I have been looking in the wrong places.

I have my own equipment, thanks though. Even have a jig for motorcycle frames that could be adapted for something like this.

But for 1200 you could buy your own equipment and material and still take a pretty girl out to benihanas for dinner with a happy ending.



Not for 1200 i wont be. I will be getting a quote from the two respectable fab shops local to me, just for kicks. I've done some work with the one and was very impressed. But that wont be till monday.



I absolutely agree with that. I cant imagine the amount of r&d that went into the aero kit. Its amazing that he offered a real deal kit that will give the buyer a real advantage. Props to him for that.

With the k though, i just dont see that much r&d, atleast not with the material itself. Its all pretty basic ideas and if your not 100% with a certain part, just go over kill for another couple bucks.

 

[evileagleawd]

Harbor Freight!!! There tig welders are awesome. Superior to any miller welder. jk!

 

[Ludachris]

Tell me where you are going to find a TIG Welder, Argon tank, tubing bender, tubing notcher, chop saw, grinder, wire wheel, material for a jig, Filler wire for $1200, maybe I have been looking in the wrong places.

I don't think there's any need to keep arguing about the cost. Some won't buy it unless it's under $XXX price, we know that. Some will. I think the more important discussion is what makes sense in the design.

 

[91stocker]

Tell me where you are going to find a TIG Welder, Argon tank, tubing bender, tubing notcher, chop saw, grinder, wire wheel, material for a jig, Filler wire for $1200, maybe I have been looking in the wrong places.

Chromoly can be mig welded. With chromoly both mig and tig require some sort of post treatment and temp control. NHRA requires tig welding because of the heat control. Chromoly will crack if no attention is paid to the heat changes. But you can still screw up chromoly with a tig.

Then theres always the option of basic mild steel for price and its easier to use.

 

[twicks69]

I would rather use DOM over chromoly for our cross-member itself as it does not need a post-process treatment. If I was doing straight pieces like lower control arms, then I would use 4130 chromoly.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Question of the day:

Has anyone done any solid modeling of either generation car? And by that, I really mean, has anyone done a really really good job measuring where all the suspension points are in relation to each other?

I have a 1g track car that I'd really like to put a solid sub-frame and control arm combination on it, someday. I've watched threads like this one form for the past 4-5 years and almost zero progress has been made.

Here is what I'm proposing: We do this as a group effort. I'm an engineer by profession, and have the ability to design something like this. It would be a ton of time/effort for me to do the whole thing, and I cannot commit that amount of time to something that, if I'm the only one purchasing it, will cost way too much to justify...

If, however, there are other people willing to do some of this work, ie if someone out there has a straight 1g chassis they are willing to donate, and someone else has the ability/time/patience/tools to effectively measure everything, we could put together a design of which you could take drawings to a machine shop of your choosing to manufacture (in whatever modified fashion you want) OR, we can approach a single vendor and give them the design on the basis that they manufacture at least X many sets.