Tubular front k-member/sub-frame design

[dsmornothing]

But yet people spend 1200 on a manifold that costs about 100 to make? They still sell quite frequently.....

 

[99gst_racer]

But yet people spend 1200 on a manifold that costs about 100 to make? They still sell quite frequently.....

Flanges alone cost $100. You're really disregarding the cost of materials with that statement. Not to mention that we both know that the final price is mostly labor. Nobody builds a badass tubular manifold in 2 hours.

 

[DsMWookie]

Flanges alone cost $100. You're really disregarding the cost of materials with that statement. Not to mention that we both know that the final price is mostly labor. Nobody builds a badass tubular manifold in 2 hours.

Paul has it nailed. A good quality flange can run you $100, then your turbo side, wastegate flange, and tubing to make the actual manifold. Add all of those materials and you will more than likely be around $350-500 plus labor.

 

[99gst_racer]

And there's also shielding gas, filler rod, and materials to build the fixture to locate the collector.

 

[GSXNXS]

But yet people spend 1200 on a manifold that costs about 100 to make? They still sell quite frequently.....

Let's pretend for a moment that a manifold and the k-member kit cost the same amount to make...$800 (which really can't be the case since the manifold has much less material and less labor involved). The manifold is going to give me XX horsepower at the wheels and I probably need one as a consumer for that new turbo I just bought. On the other hand, a k-member is going to save me 50-60 lbs. Which one do think is going to sell more and which one do you think that I would want to produce? Now take into account that the manifold is cheaper to make, has less material cost and overhead, has more labor profit and you see why nobody is producing these k-members. The k-member is really a piece for those that have done nearly everything else to their cars they can and are willing to spend a good chunk of money to remove some more weight, i.e. it is a very small market.

 

[91stocker]

I can see the cost in a tubular mani, but i cant see it in a k-member. Theres alot more material involved in making a mani. Lots of intricate bends, flanges, and alot more welding.

The k-member though, once a jig is set up and material is cut you could probably make 2 or 3 in an hour. Anyone thats worked production welding could. Plus 8ft of chromoly tube is only like $50. I couldnt imagine asking 1k+ for something like that.

 

[GSXNXS]

I can see the cost in a tubular mani, but i cant see it in a k-member. Theres alot more material involved in making a mani. Lots of intricate bends, flanges, and alot more welding.

The k-member though, once a jig is set up and material is cut you could probably make 2 or 3 in an hour. Anyone thats worked production welding could. Plus 8ft of chromoly tube is only like $50. I couldnt imagine asking 1k+ for something like that.

So we went down this road with a fabricator...one that actually is very reasonable for the quality of work he does and our cost from him was $850. Include shipping and some Paypal fees and it is over $900. I don't remember how much Polk was selling them for but I know it was more than the $1100-1200 we were asking. Why do you think that is? Why do you think no one else has produced one for under 1k if they are so cheap and easy to make?

 

[91stocker]

What all did it come with? I know vassil's design has $300 in rod ends. So ofcourse thats going to up the cost a bit. Not only because of the extra 300 in parts but those parts add alot more labor. Polk's, iirc had control arms, front subframe bar and couple other pieces included with the k.

From the pics, the control arms vassil made look pretty labor intensive. I was referring to the k alone. Also your price is for a custom one off piece, which is still cheaper then the guys wanting to do group buys for the dsm. Maybe your fab guy should open a group buy .

I would like to see a simple "street" k design. Like this mustang piece. Theres about $50 in chromoly tube and i guarantee i could make two/three of these an hour.

 

[99gst_racer]

The k-member though, once a jig is set up and material is cut you could probably make 2 or 3 in an hour. Anyone thats worked production welding could. Plus 8ft of chromoly tube is only like $50. I couldnt imagine asking 1k+ for something like that.

You should start building them and selling them for $600. You could knock out like 20 of them every day at your rate. Just be sure to let us know how that goes for you.


You're forgetting about every bushing and heim spacer that needs to be turned in a lathe. Every precise notch and bend. Each single point arm has over $100 in material alone, and 8-ft of material won't last long let alone finish the job. What about all the hours it takes to design a finished triangulated unit that will clear the exhaust, CV shafts in motion, and the factory fuel tank, while be lightweight and structurally stronger than the OE subframe? As with any fabricated project, set-up work is 90% of the job. Most of all the time and money spent is prior to welding. So, don't discount all the time and effort that goes into something like this just because it only takes an hour to weld it up.

 

[GSXNXS]

What all did it come with? I know vassil's design has $300 in rod ends. So ofcourse thats going to up the cost a bit. Not only because of the extra 300 in parts but those parts add alot more labor. Polk's, iirc had control arms, front subframe bar and couple other pieces included with the k.

From the pics, the control arms vassil made look pretty labor intensive. I was referring to the k alone. Also your price is for a custom one off piece, which is still cheaper then the guys wanting to do group buys for the dsm. Maybe your fab guy should open a group buy .

I would like to see a simple "street" k design. Like this mustang piece. Theres about $50 in chromoly tube and i guarantee i could make two/three of these an hour.

It was the k-member, front subframe bar, control arms, two solid mounts, and the bolts/nuts needed. It was not a one off piece. A jig was made and we had to commit to making a number of them.

 

[99gst_racer]

I would like to see a simple "street" k design. Like this mustang piece. Theres about $50 in chromoly tube and i guarantee i could make two/three of these an hour.

It's an unfair comparison to discuss a subframe from a car with a true frame. Try finding a cheap chromoly subframe for a unibody car.

Aside from the simplicity and the fact that it's less structural, it's also machine made by a big company that has the facility and overhead to allow them to be priced more competitively. Good luck finding one of those companies that has an interest in these types of products for DSMs.

 

[dsmornothing]

Nobody will ever make a SINGLE one of these in an hour and that is all that is too it. Everyone needs to stop being cheap and realize what kind of work this actually is. With my chassis I am building right now I have spent up to 4 hours on 1 single piece of tube just to get it to fit right.

 

[91stocker]

It's an unfair comparison to discuss a subframe from a car with a true frame. Try finding a cheap chromoly subframe for a unibody car.

$400-600 for chromoly mustang k's. Which are alot more involved then the dsm k.

 

[99gst_racer]

$400-600 for chromoly mustang k's. Which are alot more involved then the dsm k.

Better yet, find one for a unibody car with a transversely mounted engine.
How much are subframes for Subarus and EVOs? Do those take 20-30 minutes to produce too?

There's several reasons why Mustang parts will always be cheaper than DSM parts.

 

[91stocker]

Nobody will ever make a SINGLE one of these in an hour and that is all that is too it. Everyone needs to stop being cheap and realize what kind of work this actually is. With my chassis I am building right now I have spent up to 4 hours on 1 single piece of tube just to get it to fit right.

Not being cheap, just trying to point a couple things out. It just sounds like a bunch of small time guys trying to cash out on a piece because no one else makes them.

Look at the k in the first pic. How could you charge more then 600 for that?(minus control arms ofcourse) There are two bends, everything else is short straight piece. 50 in material plus one hour of labor, add a little coin to make it worth doing. No sense in raping people because no one else makes them.

You should start building them and selling them for $600. You could knock out like 20 of them every day at your rate. Just be sure to let us know how that goes for you.

I know about production welding and creating very involved pieces. The dehydration building in the second pic is what i used to make. Me and a partner made 3 of these a day in an eight hour shift. You wouldnt believe what the inside looks like either.

There's several reasons why Mustang parts will always be cheaper than DSM parts.

If a real company picked up dsm k's they'd be even cheaper, look at how simple the dsm k is. I'd buy one if someone could make one cheap enough. But im sure i'll just be making my own if i decide to pull the motor this winter.

 

[99gst_racer]

$50 in material? There's more than $100 in material in each control arm... The tubing is the least expensive part when you're paying $50 for a single heim. That k-member is unfinished too.

I can tell from your posts that you've never even researched building something like that. You can discount other's efforts all you want. But there's a reason why they are building the stuff and you aren't, and why the price is always $1000+ and not $400.

 

[91stocker]

$50 in material? There's more than $100 in material in each control arm... The tubing is the least expensive part when you're paying $50 for a single heim. That k-member is unfinished too.

I clearly said (minus the control arms) in that post.

I can tell from your posts that you've never even researched building something like that. You can discount other's efforts all you want. But there's a reason why they are building the stuff and you aren't, and why the price is always $1000+ and not $400.

No it was about 400 for the k alone. The one k that sold for 1200 had the front cross member that you sell for 200 exceot it was the three piece design that vassil sells for 300. Plus control arms that you'd probably sell for 600. There were some other things so he was basically selling his k for 400-500, which is very reasonable.

I've never claimed to be a fab guy, nor would i have the time to ever put something like this into production for anyone but myself. Plus, work, school, 2 kids under 5 years of age means no time for dsm projects. Which is exactly why id be interested in reasonably priced parts.

Trying to say that k should cost as much as a top notch custom exhaust manifold is crazy.

 

[1qkfwd]

Aside from cost, what is it that you guys want the k member to incorporate? I know that I'm at the point where I need to lose the weight and need some added room for my car. I wanted in my k member it to have a fabbed up control arms and still be able to retain the north/south bars.

 

[99gst_racer]

I've never claimed to be a fab guy, nor would i have the time to ever put something like this into production for anyone but myself. Plus, work, school, 2 kids under 5 years of age means no time for dsm projects. Which is exactly why id be interested in reasonably priced parts.

First you said you could build 3 in an hour. Now, you don't have time to build one. Contradict much?

The truth is that it is a time consuming process from start to finish, and nobody works for free. The R&D and the time is what you pay for.

As with anything that you purchase; you didn't have the time or the means the produce it yourself, so you purchase it from the guy that does have the time and the means. If you don't agree with his price, then you don't buy it. It's that simple. Just because you know a bit about the manufacturing process, doesn't give you the right to rudely complain about the prices that these fabricators set. I find it ill-mannered that you discount the price that others put on their time. It's uncalled for and there's no place for it here.

Trying to say that k should cost as much as a top notch custom exhaust manifold is crazy.

It should cost more and it does. I can build a header far quicker than a subframe. You seem to be one of the few that disagree with this.

 

[Jon91TSi]

First you said you could build 3 in an hour. Now, you don't have time to build one. Contradict much?

The truth is that it is a time consuming process from start to finish, and nobody works for free. The R&D and the time is what you pay for.

As with anything that you purchase; you didn't have the time or the means the produce it yourself, so you purchase it from the guy that does have the time and the means. If you don't agree with his price, then you don't buy it. It's that simple. Just because you know a bit about the manufacturing process, doesn't give you the right to rudely complain about the prices that these fabricator set. I find it ill-mannered that you discount the price that others put on their time. It's uncalled for and there's no place for it here.


It should cost more and it does. I can build a header far quicker than a subframe. You seem to be one of the few that disagree with this.

How do you think the fabricator recoups the 100's of hours spent during the R&D stages of building something such as a subframe? It's all included in the price. They need to cover the labor to build them, materials to build them, include profit to feed their families and themselves, and recoup the hours and hours spent designing the damn thing. It isn't rocket science. I would find an $800 price tag or even more for Vassil's subframe very fair. I fully intend to buy one when they are available for sale, regardless of price.

 

[99gst_racer]

Agreed. It's beyond me why everyone thinks R&D should be free. Especially coming from the ones who proclaim to not have time for things.

$1200 for Vassil's would be fair, IMO. But he's welcome to price it anywhere he wants.

 

[91stocker]

You guys talk about r&d like your designing a turbo wheel or something. What research are you doing? Its not a performance piece where your trying to squeeze more power then your competitors. Its pipe. Not like the r&d magnus put into their cast manifold. That is r&d. Making a bend in a pipe and a couple easy welds is not.

Cutting material is also not r&d. You guys can set what ever prices you want, but i'll be the first to say "told ya so" when you spend hours setting up a jig to sell one or two units.

Especially coming from the ones who proclaim to not have time for things.

You dont read very well do you? If i pull my motor this winter to freshen it up i will make my own k. Its ridiculous how hard you guys are trying to make them sound. My point was i wouldn't have the time to make a jig and stamp a couple out to sell. All in which i clearly stated in my previous comments.

It was expected that you'd be pretty defensive about it. Since your trying to sell a rear piece in your thread and that fact that you sell a straight piece of tube with a mount welded to it for $200.

The truth is that it is a time consuming process from start to finish, and nobody works for free. The R&D and the time is what you pay for.

What r&d . Maybe some test fitting. Does that count as r&d, nope i dont think it would.

It should cost more and it does. I can build a header far quicker than a subframe. You seem to be one of the few that disagree with this.

. Not a chance in hell on that happening.


Im willing to bet that 1200 is more then a custom one off piece at the local fab shop. And since im thinking about it, im going to go get a quote from him on monday. Maybe i'll start my own group buy

 

[99gst_racer]

R&D such as which diameter and wall thickness of tubing to use to find a happy medium between strength and weight. Then there's the task of triangulating a strong piece using a little tube as possible, because afterall, there is no cookie cutter instruction sheet on how to build these. And then determining the most efficient way of cutting and shaping bracketry. And you'll have to determine how much radial and axial load is being put on the heims to determine which size and material will hold up in a racing environment. These are just a few things that a fabricator needs to take into account that a welder does not.

And I sell my crossmember for $175, not $200. That's the price that I came up with to make it worth working out in my garage during my free time after I get out of work. Afterall, metal fabrication is only a hobby of mine. But with 70+ out there, I guess it was worth making that fixture.

Magnus gets $2000 for a 2G rear subframe because he has a bit more than 20 minutes and $50 in it. How many of those could you build and sell in an hour?

 

[snowborder714]

Just because it doesn't add power doesn't mean it's not a performance piece. If made properly (using R&D to get proper geometry in road racing applications for a lowered car, for example), it will help you gain fractions of a second to full seconds of time on a track.

If you do end up building your own, I would be very interested to see exactly how much time (research, sketching, trial and error, prepping, building, finishing, etc.) and money (parts costs, labor costs if you don't do it yourself) you would have into it.

 

[91stocker]

Just because it doesn't add power doesn't mean it's not a performance piece. If made properly (using R&D to get proper geometry in road racing applications for a lowered car, for example), it will help you gain fractions of a second to full seconds of time on a track.

That is true, i wasnt thinking of "non stock" configurations.

R&D such as which diameter and wall thickness of tubing to use to find a happy medium between strength and weight. Then there's the task of triangulating a strong piece using a little tube as possible, because afterall, there is no cookie cutter instruction sheet on how to build these. And then determining the most efficient way of cutting and shaping bracketry. And you'll have to determine how much radial and axial load is being put on the heims to determine which size and material will hold up in a racing environment. These are just a few things that a fabricator needs to take into account that a welder does not.

Yea, im not thinking into the high end of the piece. Im still stuck on a "street" layout i guess.

But really i wasnt trying to knock any of the stuff thats been made or going to be made. I just hope the market it there for $1200 k members for a $1200 car. Thats alot of money to loose 30lbs and .03 in the 1/4. I only brought up price because as soon as 1200 was mentioned, interest completely dropped off to nothing in all related threads.