those who have made 400+ on an EVO III 16g

[Slippi84]

Better yet lets make this easy:

intake
intercooler
injectors
pump
afpr
cams
turbo
tuning
race gas/E85

Those are the main things you need to make 400whp with a 16g. You want to see the things you need to make 500whp with a hx40 in bolt on form? Just take away race gas

 

[98spydert]

You have a compressor that pushes a HAIR over 40lb/min, not well over. You however used a turbine that could push the compressor off it's map easier. So ofcourse you should be capable of seeing 400whp.

LMFAO
So this thread has gone from "Has anyone done it?" to "Your stupid for doing it" to "Of course you can do it." That's awesome

But seriously, the hot side issue is a good point. A E16G + Hotside upgrade is not a good option for someone looking to make even over 350whp. The idea of an affordable, box turbo is gone.

In my defense, I only upgraded hotsides because RRE's stainless steal manifold-turbo gasket expanded and embedded itself into all 4 bolts causing them all to snap when being backed out once the threads got to the gasket. I bought the HRC/Tial setup to combat waste gate problems. I bought meth injection so I could run the same boost at the street and track because CA pump gas knocked like crazy. I bought the AFPR to combat a fuel pressure over run condition at the rail.

My mod list just sort of fell together. I didn't buy the evo3 with the intention of making 400whp, I bought it with the intention of making my daily driver 300whp+ and did with ease. Because of how my mod list evolved for various reasons, I decided to add cams and see if I could get to 400whp.

I'll more than agree with the fact that the evo3 is NOT a good choice when planning over 400whp. But you guys have completely derailed the thread and gone off on viable choices for 400whp goal which is a different discussion. No one has popped up and said, "I bought the E316G to make 400whp and I did."

 

[98spydert]

2.) A 400awhp 16g setup can be pretty taxing to the drivetrain due to its powerband and torque curve.

Good point, but I don't think a small turbo coming onto boost puts anywhere near as much stress as just shifting gears going down the track with our 2900lb+ pressure plates. It's a moot point in the grand scheme of DSM abuse

 

[98spydert]

Better yet lets make this easy:

intake
intercooler
injectors
pump
afpr
cams
turbo
tuning
race gas/E85

Those are the main things you need to make 400whp with a 16g. You want to see the things you need to make 500whp with a hx40 in bolt on form? Just take away race gas

You've made 500whp on pump gas? Prove it.

 

[byebyev8]

Just by looking at dyno numbers of other bolt on turbo's that flow under 50lbs the e316g is still the way to go. 20g's, 50trims, etc... with the more mods end up making around the same power and running the same times. There's ton's of E3 cars in the 11's but there's not so many 50trim,20g cars even though they should be alot faster alot of them end up running 12's. This is definently show on the sbr internally gated turbo dyno. Kinda funny but the most whp anyones gotten on a 50trim is the same as a e316g(500whp). Call me crazy but i chose my e3 over a hx35 simply because with the e316g no body would be scared to run the car for cash.

The evo guys get this the stock turbo on e85 or meth has more potential than a fpgreen powered camed pump gas car.

plus I don't buy the whole 500hp limit of the stock block, no madder how much power you make on a dyno 11.5's the fastest the stock block can handle reliably in a full weight car.

 

[Slippi84]

You've made 500whp on pump gas? Prove it.

I never said I did but while I can tell you are no newbb I must give you the search speach on this one. User named Turbosharky made 685whp on race gas with a hx40 with bolt on housing and if you look at his post and info you will see where he ended up on pump gas

You did things the right way it seems with the way you car evloved but be aware of what your car is now. A 500whp capable car with a turbo too small for the rest of your setup. I am not impressed with 400whp out of a 16g to be honest because Nate at TPG who will be helping me when it comes to tuning my car (see 9 sec no compromise build) has already made 500whp with a 16g with all the bells and whistles including high compression. Even knowing that I wouldn't buy a 16g to make 500 or even 400whp

 

[98spydert]

I was just throwing out a basic plain jane setup you see a lot which would fall under budget. A hx40 with bolt on housing is PLENTY streetable. You don't need a on off switch at 3k to be streetable. A saying it would be better to by a hx40 with all the mods your talking about is nothing like saying everyone should buy a 1000whp turbo. I have a hx52 which is a lot bigger than a hx40 so TRUST ME I know the difference between the two.

I've been trying to understand the relevance of your post and I can't. A "plain jane" set up or budget build hasn't been mentioned in the 7 pages of this thread and doesn't apply to the topic. The only time I mentioned budget was to point out the difference between the 400whp and 600whp builds which was a significant investment into building your long block.

People don't buy the HX40 to build 20psi+ far before 3k rpm and people don't buy the E16G to make 600whp. If you think the HX40 and HX52 is just as streetable as the 16G, that's your opinion. "Streetability" isn't something that can be argued, it's in the eye of the beholder.

I think the discussion would have gone in a more reasonable and relevant direction if the 42 lb/min E316G was being compared to something in the 45-50 lb/min range, not the HX40. They're not even in the same league, I don't know why it keeps being brought up. The box turbos DSM-onster listed are more comparable and good choices for a 400whp goal. The E16G and HX40 are not.

 

[Slippi84]

Just by looking at dyno numbers of other bolt on turbo's that flow under 50lbs the e316g is still the way to go. 20g's, 50trims, etc... with the more mods end up making around the same power and running the same times. There's ton's of E3 cars in the 11's but there's not so many 50trim,20g cars even though they should be alot faster alot of them end up running 12's. This is definently show on the sbr internally gated turbo dyno. Kinda funny but the most whp anyones gotten on a 50trim is the same as a e316g(500whp). Call me crazy but i chose my e3 over a hx35 simply because with the e316g no body would be scared to run the car for cash.

The evo guys get this the stock turbo on e85 or meth has more potential than a fpgreen powered camed pump gas car.

plus I don't buy the whole 500hp limit of the stock block, no madder how much power you make on a dyno 11.5's the fastest the stock block can handle reliably in a full weight car.

A fpgreen is a outdated turbo. The whole 50trim craze has died down and extended tip HTA and holset has stepped up. A hx35 will make more hp than a 16g any day of the week with the same bolt on housing with the same setup behind it. It has been proven just ask Matt. I don't even think it's worth talking about 20g's anymore. I put that in the same category as VPC + GCC supra smic's and 8 tracks

 

[Slippi84]

I've been trying to understand the relevance of your post and I can't. A "plain jane" set up or budget build hasn't been mentioned in the 7 pages of this thread and doesn't apply to the topic. The only time I mentioned budget was to point out the difference between the 400whp and 600whp builds which was a significant investment into building your long block.

People don't buy the HX40 to build 20psi+ far before 3k rpm and people don't buy the E16G to make 600whp. If you think the HX40 and HX52 is just as streetable as the 16G, that's your opinion. "Streetability" isn't something that can be argued, it's in the eye of the beholder.

I think the discussion would have gone in a more reasonable and relevant direction if the 42 lb/min E316G was being compared to something in the 45-50 lb/min range, not the HX40. They're not even in the same league, I don't know why it keeps being brought up. The box turbos DSM-onster listed are more comparable and good choices for a 400whp goal. The E16G and HX40 are not.

You can't just compare turbos without knowing what the turbo is going on that's why I keep bringing up "plane jane" setups and "budget" setups because thats the only car next to a autoX car that really would be worth putting a 16g on and trying to really push it. I never said that a hx52 and hx40 were in the same ball park with streetability but a hx40 with bolt on house and 16g with a hotside suitable for this hp level are and they cost the same amount of money(I bought my hx40 for 550 shipped off ebay in BRAND NEW condition) Knowing you can give up 400-500 rpms of spool and have potential to make 600whp I think that would be a no brainer for most people.

 

[98spydert]

I never said I did but while I can tell you are no newbb I must give you the search speach on this one. User named Turbosharky made 685whp on race gas with a hx40 with bolt on housing and if you look at his post and info you will see where he ended up on pump gas

You did things the right way it seems with the way you car evloved but be aware of what your car is now. A 500whp capable car with a turbo too small for the rest of your setup. I am not impressed with 400whp out of a 16g to be honest because Nate at TPG who will be helping me when it comes to tuning my car (see 9 sec no compromise build) has already made 500whp with a 16g with all the bells and whistles including high compression. Even knowing that I wouldn't buy a 16g to make 500 or even 400whp

I appreciate the healthy discussion, but again, WHERE IS THE RELEVANCE of a 685whp HX40 on race gas to the 400whp 16G topic and why would I be searching for it??? I don't get it. In fact, it goes 100% towards my point and opinion that you should use a turbo to it's potential. I used a turbo that was rated at mid to high 300whp and made 400 with it. Your example took the HX40 which is commonly rated at 600whp and made 685 with it. So why would you suggest using a HX40 to make 400whp? Or even 500whp? There are better choices for either goal when it's commonly used to make 600+.

And I didn't keep the car, or plan on doing much more with it. If I did, I would have built the bottom end and picked another turbo to use to it's FULL potential

 

[98spydert]

Knowing you can give up 400-500 rpms of spool and have potential to make 600whp I think that would be a no brainer for most people.

Ok, I think what we're butting heads on isn't necessarily the HX40 and it's potential in certain power ranges. I think it really has to do with the fact that I wouldn't build a daily driver I expected to last past 400whp on a stock long block and you would. IMO, and maybe it differs from yours, the stock long block isn't made to run a HX40 at 500whp and will NOT last doing it. In this since, the Evo16G is a good match to the stock 7 bolt long block and the potential of both. I fully understand that people have, do, and will continue to build their stock long blocks past 400whp. Again, not my point.

And for the topic of a streetable turbo, I made 20spi at 2500rpm and 26psi by 2800rpm. You won't see that power output or response with the HX40 before 3000rpm. And that just goes back to individual opinion again. Maybe the HX40 spooling in the mid 3k range is your idea of a comfortable daily driver turbo but others may not.

 

[donniekak]

I have had both turbos back to back and i thought the hx40 was a better street turbo. The reason is that i could run 26 psi on 91 octane and a good tune. Living in az you should know how hard it is to run higher boost on a 16g in the summer. The 16g may spool in the low 3000's, but how ofter does anyone that is pushing a car drive in that range? As for auto x, my galant with full suspension and a t28 would kill any of my dsm's, including the 16g talon.
I have a evo 3 on my talon currently, they are great for a 300-350hp car.
Having been in a fully modded car pushing a 16g on e-85 i know what they are all about. They are a turbo impression of a 60's muscle car, huge torque, and a big fade on top. If that is the power band you are comfortable with, then the evo3 is your turbo. Looking at a dyno graph of an evo 3 pull, it is easy to see why they are known for breaking tranmissions. At 400hp they are usually making at least 450 ft/lbs. With cams and a large turbo, 450 ft/lbs is a mid 500hp car. Same strain on the trans, way more power.
My stock rebuilt 6-bolt held upper 30's of boost from the holset, no problem. The trans is another story.
If you look at the majority of time slips, it's clear that 400+ hp 16g's are an anomoly, not the norm.

 

[98spydert]

I have had both turbos back to back and i thought the hx40 was a better street turbo. The reason is that i could run 26 psi on 91 octane and a good tune. Living in az you should know how hard it is to run higher boost on a 16g in the summer. The 16g may spool in the low 3000's, but how ofter does anyone that is pushing a car drive in that range?

AGAIN, I had a daily driver, my car spent over 90% of it's life in that range.

As for auto x, my galant with full suspension and a t28 would kill any of my dsm's, including the 16g talon.

What's your point?

I have a evo 3 on my talon currently, they are great for a 300-350hp car.

I just said that multiple times.

Having been in a fully modded car pushing a 16g on e-85 i know what they are all about. They are a turbo impression of a 60's muscle car, huge torque, and a big fade on top. If that is the power band you are comfortable with, then the evo3 is your turbo.
[quote/]
The evo3 pulls hard through out its efficiency range. Multiple people have already stated 400+ is really outside it's normal opperating range and not a viable goal for someone shopping turbos. The original poster's question and general direction of this thread was "is it possible?" and "what did it take?" and those have been answered.

Looking at a dyno graph of an evo 3 pull, it is easy to see why they are known for breaking tranmissions.

Show me one case where an Evo3 broke a transmission and what part or parts the turbo was directly responsible for damaging. People are known for breaking their transmissions and cars in general, small turbos operating outside their efficiency range do not break transmissions.

At 400hp they are usually making at least 450 ft/lbs. With cams and a large turbo, 450 ft/lbs is a mid 500hp car. Same strain on the trans, way more power.

(Torque x Engine speed) / 5,252 = Horsepower. You're just making your peak torque higher in the power band before falling off. This goes back to operating a turbo in it's efficiency range and matching a turbo and it's potential to an engine and it's potential.

My head was not ported, I used a factory intake manifold, and a middle of the road cam. My engine was not engineered to flow 55 lbs/min at 7500rpm and I'm experienced enough to know that attempting that with a massive turbo is a waste of that turbo's potential, and my time, without engineering the rest of your long block and supporting mods to match it. People have been putting huge turbos on stock DSMs and breaking them for decades. Pointing out that it's possible is irrelevant.

My stock rebuilt 6-bolt held upper 30's of boost from the holset, no problem. The trans is another story.

Could be a relevant example. Do you have any actual statistics? Dyno numbers, trap speed and vehicle weight, purpose of the vehicle (DD or track oriented, both?), how many miles or pulls it lasted? Actual psi, lbs/min, peak timing, AFR, fuel used.

If you look at the majority of time slips, it's clear that 400+ hp 16g's are an anomoly, not the norm.

Fact = Established.

 

[98spydert]

This thread is going no where.

Here's my question for you HX40 advocates!

You're asking me why I didn't use an Evo3 inside it's efficiency range or why I didn't make a better choice for 400whp. Why aren't you using your HX40s to inside their efficiency range when you could have made a better choice? I know not a single one of you are making over 500whp and laying down 10sec quarter miles. Why would you sacrifice money and spool vs running a HX35 to meet your goals? Why on earth is Slippi running a HX52 and not making 700whp?


Why am I still posting in this thread?

The funny part about this exchange is I now have a 95 GSX with a built 2.4 and head and will be running a turbo capable of making 600whp or more this year.... and I'll actually make it!!!

 

[Slippi84]

This thread is going no where.

Here's my question for you HX40 advocates!

You're asking me why I didn't use an Evo3 inside it's efficiency range or why I didn't make a better choice for 400whp. Why aren't you using your HX40s to inside their efficiency range when you could have made a better choice? I know not a single one of you are making over 500whp and laying down 10sec quarter miles. Why would you sacrifice money and spool vs running a HX35 to meet your goals? Why on earth is Slippi running a HX52 and not making 700whp?


Why am I still posting in this thread?

The funny part about this exchange is I now have a 95 GSX with a built 2.4 and head and will be running a turbo capable of making 600whp or more this year.... and I'll actually make it!!!

Because Slippi's car is not done yet and WHEN it is the goal is over 700whp. Actually closer to 750whp or more

For a guy asking to see proof of EVERYTHING I must have missed your posted dyno sheet or video of your 400whp pull. Not trying to say you haven't done it but you think that MAYBE there are other like you who have done it and just not posted yet.

Let me guess your gonna make 600whp with your built stroker and a 20g just to prove you can


By the way your statement about your car spending 90% of it's life below 3k made no sense. I think you may have misunderstood his statement but he said making boost in the area you stated(2600 or w/e) doesn't matter because your car isn't even that low in the rpm band really but for less than a second. If your really that impatient run a stroker and a t25

 

[donniekak]

My point about transmissions is based on the fact that to make 400hp an evo3 has to make more torque than hp because of its high boost operating range. A turbo that flows more air can make more hp than tq because it is still in its map higher in the rpm range, and not having the boost fall off. 400hp with 450 ft/lbs, is way harder on a trans than 500hp with 400ft/lbs. I'm not dogging 16g's or saying they can't make 400hp. My point is that it is easier, and cheaper to do it with another turbo.

This thread has been helpful to me. After seeing the dyno graphs and torque curves on evo3 cars, they aren't much lower than 18g's, 20g's, and a lot of 50 trims. I would like to build my current car to about 400hp. Instead of squeezing every bit of life out of my evo3, i'm going to sell it and buy an hx35.
I picked 400hp because i have had a lot of cars, and when i got past that level i started having trans problems. An evo 3 at 400 hp will stress my trans as much as the hx40 did at 50lbs/min of flow. I have talked to a lot of people and done a good bit of experimenting with different gearsets and preload ranges. The fact is, any dsm trans will eventually break at 450+ ft/lbs.

 

[ElectronVTEC]

On my way to an HX-35 (see thread in this same section), I found I could bolt on an E316G for $50 after I sell my s16G. Not a big change but a change nonetheless - I just happen to like wrenching on the car and thought doing a turbo upgrade would be nice, especially for $50. As soon as it arrives, I'll have a Punishment o2 w/ Tial EWG so that when I *do* find and install an HX-35, I won't really have to do anything outside of install new oil lines. Sometimes it's not about the end result but more about the journey in getting there My journey is going to take me through the EVO 16G this time and I can't wait to take it out to see what all the fuss is about.

Todd.

 

[tim4g63fast]

run ethanol, spray methanol, turn up the boost

of course with some supporting modifications.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oyj0WNISlM pretty basic setup

 

[dsm-onster]

LMFAO
So this thread has gone from "Has anyone done it?" to "Your stupid for doing it" to "Of course you can do it." That's awesome

Laugh your self right out of the thread. You still havn't done it with an evo3 16g. You've done it with an evo3 16g compressor and an upgrade turbine. That IS a difference. laughing about it or not. good job on proving that you need more than an evo3 16g hotside to make 400whp without a smim and exhaust manifold upgrade. Congratulations you have made 400whp with a turbo that costs $570 and used a $250 housing to do what a cheaper in total 50-trim can which also has more final potential. Another !

No one said it wasn't possible. I said that it's not easy, and it takes a bit more than the stock long block and cams. 'Fact = Established', BEP 16g guy (glad I bought a bolton housing for my h1c back in the day! they DO work folks). It costs the same or less to use a bigger turbo that will afford more potential anyway.

BTW, the hx40 sucks at this level (even though it spools to full song by just after 4K with a 2.0). The bolton hx35 has done FAR beyond the level of performance discussed in this thread. My h1c (hx35) spooled as fast as my 16g. We're in the 21st centurey here. We don't need 90s tech turbos to get good street manners and do without flow.

 

[jrohner]

I didn't think 400hp was that hard to get; all the tuning I did was on the street too. Now I'm at 26+psi all the way to 7500 RPMS (all my 750cc injectors can handle, or I'd set it higher as I have hit 30psi at 7500), so I'd like to know the power difference from my 22-23psi dyno.

I now have a WH1C and the DSM bolton housing, so we'll see how that goes when I get to installing it (hopefully in the next 2-3 weeks).

 

[Black_Bullet]

My point about transmissions is based on the fact that to make 400hp an evo3 has to make more torque than hp because of its high boost operating range. A turbo that flows more air can make more hp than tq because it is still in its map higher in the rpm range, and not having the boost fall off. 400hp with 450 ft/lbs, is way harder on a trans than 500hp with 400ft/lbs. I'm not dogging 16g's or saying they can't make 400hp. My point is that it is easier, and cheaper to do it with another turbo.

This thread has been helpful to me. After seeing the dyno graphs and torque curves on evo3 cars, they aren't much lower than 18g's, 20g's, and a lot of 50 trims. I would like to build my current car to about 400hp. Instead of squeezing every bit of life out of my evo3, i'm going to sell it and buy an hx35.
I picked 400hp because i have had a lot of cars, and when i got past that level i started having trans problems. An evo 3 at 400 hp will stress my trans as much as the hx40 did at 50lbs/min of flow. I have talked to a lot of people and done a good bit of experimenting with different gearsets and preload ranges. The fact is, any dsm trans will eventually break at 450+ ft/lbs.

Everything ive come to learn about this subject is in agreement with this post.

 

[98spydert]

Because Slippi's car is not done yet and WHEN it is the goal is over 700whp. Actually closer to 750whp or more

Awesome, I remember your screen name back in the day when I actually posted on tuners and I'm glad you're going to build something big.

For a guy asking to see proof of EVERYTHING I must have missed your posted dyno sheet or video of your 400whp pull. Not trying to say you haven't done it but you think that MAYBE there are other like you who have done it and just not posted yet.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who have done it and not posted, I don't know why DSMonster is making it such a big deal. This is OLD NEWS. I don't have proof because it was a long time ago and I don't frame time slips or dyno pulls, I have better things to do. I posted my stats from memory because I didn't think it was going to be a big deal. It's not hard and it's not impossible, it's just not a viable goal today.

By the way your statement about your car spending 90% of it's life below 3k made no sense. I think you may have misunderstood his statement but he said making boost in the area you stated(2600 or w/e) doesn't matter because your car isn't even that low in the rpm band really but for less than a second. If your really that impatient run a stroker and a t25

It made sense in my own mind. It's not that low in the rpms for less than a second when you're driving around town at part throttle. What I meant was that when I hit the throttle 90% of the time, it was DD land and I wanted response whether or not I was hitting 12psi or 26. A low compression engine with a turbo that simply doesn't response at low rpms and part throttle is a DOG to drive on the streets.

 

[98spydert]

My point about transmissions is based on the fact that to make 400hp an evo3 has to make more torque than hp because of its high boost operating range. A turbo that flows more air can make more hp than tq because it is still in its map higher in the rpm range, and not having the boost fall off. 400hp with 450 ft/lbs, is way harder on a trans than 500hp with 400ft/lbs. I'm not dogging 16g's or saying they can't make 400hp. My point is that it is easier, and cheaper to do it with another turbo.

This thread has been helpful to me. After seeing the dyno graphs and torque curves on evo3 cars, they aren't much lower than 18g's, 20g's, and a lot of 50 trims. I would like to build my current car to about 400hp. Instead of squeezing every bit of life out of my evo3, i'm going to sell it and buy an hx35.
I picked 400hp because i have had a lot of cars, and when i got past that level i started having trans problems. An evo 3 at 400 hp will stress my trans as much as the hx40 did at 50lbs/min of flow. I have talked to a lot of people and done a good bit of experimenting with different gearsets and preload ranges. The fact is, any dsm trans will eventually break at 450+ ft/lbs.

Good choice on the HX35. I'll see you around, moving into my new house in Surprise on the 22nd

 

[98spydert]

Laugh your self right out of the thread. You still havn't done it with an evo3 16g. You've done it with an evo3 16g compressor and an upgrade turbine. That IS a difference. laughing about it or not. good job on proving that you need more than an evo3 16g hotside to make 400whp without a smim and exhaust manifold upgrade. Congratulations you have made 400whp with a turbo that costs $570 and used a $250 housing to do what a cheaper in total 50-trim can which also has more final potential. Another !

No one said it wasn't possible. I said that it's not easy, and it takes a bit more than the stock long block and cams. 'Fact = Established', BEP 16g guy (glad I bought a bolton housing for my h1c back in the day! they DO work folks). It costs the same or less to use a bigger turbo that will afford more potential anyway.

BTW, the hx40 sucks at this level (even though it spools to full song by just after 4K with a 2.0). The bolton hx35 has done FAR beyond the level of performance discussed in this thread. My h1c (hx35) spooled as fast as my 16g. We're in the 21st centurey here. We don't need 90s tech turbos to get good street manners and do without flow.

Are you serious?

How old are you??? You couldn't do it without one less mod neener neener!! I bought a better turbo than you! neener neener!!

Grow up tool. Have fun bench racing your flow charts on the internet. I'm glad the only one who got nasty and immature in this thread was the so called "wiseman"

 

[Slippi84]

I'm not usually one to play peace keeper but this is just a matter of opinion when it comes to which turbo is better for what and we ALL have acknowledged that 400whp with a 16g is possible but not a likely or even smart pick for a turbo setup with those goals. Everything else is why YOU build your car and WE build our cars lets leave it at that.