those who have made 400+ on an EVO III 16g

[dsm-onster]

Yes. I agree 100%. We choose our own build path. As it stands, it usually takes more than a stock long block, cams, fuel, and intercooler to see the 400whp number. Most who've done 400whp with the evo3 16g have had to run $250 turbine housings, $450 SMIMs, or more. So in your decision to push the 16g to this level expect to pay for it. It's perfectly fine if you do. But expect it to cost in the end more than a turbo upgrade. Slippi is right and we've been saying this before some have even entered the discussion, early off in the thread. I'm sorry Glenn that the thread keeps going in circles.

98spydert, please stop showing your rear. You came in here claiming you have a 400whp evo3 16g build (without even providing a dyno sheet). You played off your upgraded turbine housing and wastegate with over $450 worth of parts as if it doesn't matter. When the point is "what does it take to make 400whp with a 16g?". You accused me of saying that it's not possible, when I and everyone agreed that it was possible long before you came intot eh discussion. We all know MUCH more has been made with the e3 16g. You attacked other's related discussion as unrelated (we are migrating to the practicality and what streetable turbos are more capable). You are really butting heads with everyone here a whole bunch for someone who hasn't even posted a picture of your results.

Show everyone a little respect. NO ONE IS SAYING IT'S NOT POSSIBLE. You seam to have thougt that we were arguing that it's even possible. You should have read the thread more thoroughly before just jumping in. You're not taking the discussion forward. You're agreeing with everything we're saying, even listing a build that supports what we're saying; but denying that we're correct or even experienced enough to know how to discuss the topic. Meanwhile you've given no reference of your success but your own word that you "did it". Let's get the attitude out of here so that we can go back to a fruitful discussion.

Tim4g63fast, thank you very much for posting an actual video! Great stuff. I think Jayrolla posted this up already. It seams there's a trend for getting big power from the 16g without a SMIM: ethanol. Also, it's VERY interesting that in the video, it's stated that the 16g could hold 30psi to redline once the intercooler was removed. Ethanol with meth injection minus IC is looking more and more appealing.

 

[ElectronVTEC]

Yes. I agree 100%. We choose our own build path. As it stands, it usually takes more than a stock long block, cams, fuel, and intercooler to see the 400whp number. Most who've done 400whp with the evo3 16g have had to run $250 turbine housings, $450 SMIMs, or more. So in your decision to push the 16g to this level expect to pay for it. It's perfectly fine if you do. But expect it to cost in the end more than a turbo upgrade. Slippi is right and we've been saying this before some have even entered the discussion, early off in the thread. I'm sorry Glenn that the thread keeps going in circles.

98spydert, please stop showing your rear. You came in here claiming you have a 400whp evo3 16g build (without even providing a dyno sheet). You played off your upgraded turbine housing and wastegate with over $450 worth of parts as if it doesn't matter. When the point is "what does it take to make 400whp with a 16g?". You accused me of saying that it's not possible, when I and everyone agreed that it was possible long before you came intot eh discussion. We all know MUCH more has been made with the e3 16g. You attacked other's related discussion as unrelated (we are migrating to the practicality and what streetable turbos are more capable). You are really butting heads with everyone here a whole bunch for someone who hasn't even posted a picture of your results.

Show everyone a little respect. NO ONE IS SAYING IT'S NOT POSSIBLE. You seam to have thougt that we were arguing that it's even possible. You should have read the thread more thoroughly before just jumping in. You're not taking the discussion forward. You're agreeing with everything we're saying, even listing a build that supports what we're saying; but denying that we're correct or even experienced enough to know how to discuss the topic. Meanwhile you've given no reference of your success but your own word that you "did it". Let's get the attitude out of here so that we can go back to a fruitful discussion.

Tim4g63fast, thank you very much for posting an actual video! Great stuff. I think Jayrolla posted this up already. It seams there's a trend for getting big power from the 16g without a SMIM: ethanol. Also, it's VERY interesting that in the video, it's stated that the 16g could hold 30psi to redline once the intercooler was removed. Ethanol with meth injection minus IC is looking more and more appealing.

My modding model is based around your first paragraph. I know you weren't addressing me but thought this might be of value to the discussion. My philosophy has been to only invest in mods that would benefit a larger turbo as well. Before I move to an HX-35, I plan to maximize what I can get out of the E16G with at least cams, possibly a SMIM. I feel like if I can put up 116+ MPH traps in a full weight AWD on the E16G, then I've learned and tuned enough to "earn" a bigger turbo. That may sound corny but I feel like on my past car I jumped to a larger turbo too soon and consequently ended up frustrated and then I sold it out of said frustration. A good example of this would be Meth injection. I am planning on moving to E85 and feel like Meth is somewhat of a band-aid for hair dryer turbos and shouldn't be necessary for a mostly street driven HX-35 or similar turbo'd DSM. So, I'll save that $300 and put that into cams which might be a bit overkill for a E16G but would really come alive with a bigger turbo. I hope that all makes sense, if anyone wants to shoot holes in my theory, feel free

Todd

 

[matthewdesigns]

^^ IMHO that's a good, sound way to approach making more power, regardless of the turbo. I'm taking the same approach with my Evo316g setup, and am at the point where I need cams and an intake manifold. Once I have those, I'll be damn close to 400whp, and beyond that I'm set up for any bolt-on turbo, and it'll be able to be run more effectively than if I had just slapped one on my stock head/manifold setup.

 

[ElectronVTEC]

I feel like it may be stating the obvious but I wanted to put it down regardless. To get to some of the higher traps on this type of setup you have to have good coolant temps, good IAT temps, and a solid fuel setup under the hood. On my old '90, I never heat-wrapped anything or put together a CAI because I didn't know any better. Now I do and it makes for a much more reliable setup, that's for sure. Now with E85 and even easier SD for those of us with Link, we can really wring a lot more out of these setups than we use to. I doubt this will happen but who's to say I can't hit 120 MPH traps and call it a day - that's a helluva fun street car!

Todd.

 

[Slippi84]

It is good if your just learning but if you know what it takes to make power and it's just a matter of doing it then the main problem with that is modding 2 or 3 times the same stuff. Like unless you buy bc 280s for your 16g you will probably want to buy bigger injectors when you get a new turbo. Unless you buy a nice sized fmic kit setup say 24x12x3 or something in that area you will probably want a bigger IC eventually. Unless you buy some fic 950cc injectors or bigger you may need to upgrade injectors again. Knowing that it's like buying a whole other setup on top of what you already have. If you have the money for that more power to you but I only have enough to mod it run it and fix it not mod it upgrade it....upgraded it again mod it fix it race it ect..

 

[whitedawg]

Here come the Holset nuthuggers showing up in a EVO 16G turbo thread. Don't try to argue with them, they can't be reasoned with.

 

[ElectronVTEC]

It is good if your just learning but if you know what it takes to make power and it's just a matter of doing it then the main problem with that is modding 2 or 3 times the same stuff. Like unless you buy bc 280s for your 16g you will probably want to buy bigger injectors when you get a new turbo. Unless you buy a nice sized fmic kit setup say 24x12x3 or something in that area you will probably want a bigger IC eventually. Unless you buy some fic 950cc injectors or bigger you may need to upgrade injectors again. Knowing that it's like buying a whole other setup on top of what you already have. If you have the money for that more power to you but I only have enough to mod it run it and fix it not mod it upgrade it....upgraded it again mod it fix it race it ect..

Honestly that's my point - to try and avoid what you are describing. Now, I bought my 780's without intending to go to E85 so I will have to upgrade them to get much over 400 whp. But, I bought Link which means I could have started with 1150's on my 14b and I'll never realistically need more fuel than that for my goals, even on E85. My FMIC is good to around 500 whp, so that's done. I don't intend to touch my springs, retainers, etc... so FP2's or 101200's and a sane redline (7500-ish) will suffice there for either a 16G or an HX-35 (or equivalently larger turbo). The way the DSM used part market works nowadays, upgrading to 1050's or some such injector will only have me $100 out of pocket at most.

So yes, some "redoing" is inevitable but my whole plan is to overbuild a little for a 16G so that when I step up to something larger, I am good. I only plan on dragging the car to see where it's at after each "stage" and I'm not going to beat on it. I want a fun street car, not a drag car that loses half its drivetrain just to put up a track number. My days of forum-racing are over, thankfully

Todd.

 

[Slippi84]

Here come the Holset nuthuggers showing up in a EVO 16G turbo thread. Don't try to argue with them, they can't be reasoned with.

Big words from a guy with a Pu$$y67. That turbo is CHEEKS!!! My hx52 will outflow and spool faster than that junk turbo without even breaking a sweat.

 

[JusMX141]

Here come the Holset nuthuggers showing up in a EVO 16G turbo thread. Don't try to argue with them, they can't be reasoned with.

If you want to spend $1500 on a turbo and become loyal to a brand with proven reliability issues, that's your beef. I don't run around saying "Holset is the best and there's nothing better", but I'm no longer recommending Garrett as a reliable upgrade option for any DSM.

In ball-bearing form the Garretts are quite durable, but they're also unaffordable for the majority.

 

[whitedawg]

If you want to spend $1500 on a turbo and become loyal to a brand with proven reliability issues, that's your beef. I don't run around saying "Holset is the best and there's nothing better", but I'm no longer recommending Garrett as a reliable upgrade option for any DSM.

In ball-bearing form the Garretts are quite durable, but they're also unaffordable for the majority.

You didn't but everyone else does. See the post above. Spools like a 16G with the power of a 42R GTFO.

 

[Slippi84]

You didn't but everyone else does. See the post above. Spools like a 16G with the power of a 42R GTFO.

Like he said keep wasting your money on your outdated turbo's and I'll let my dyno slips and time slips talk for my turbo. You think people would stop recommending garret if it was still the shit like YOU seem to think. No one said anything like spool like a 16g and gt42r power. Your Pu$$y67 will spool slower than a hx52 and make less power I didn't say 16g fast just faster. OH, and it's not just holset Borg Warner shits on garret turbos too for less money I guess we're Borg nutt huggers too


I pitty the fool that pays too much for a inferior turbo

 

[matthewdesigns]

It is good if your just learning but if you know what it takes to make power and it's just a matter of doing it then the main problem with that is modding 2 or 3 times the same stuff. Like unless you buy bc 280s for your 16g you will probably want to buy bigger injectors when you get a new turbo. Unless you buy a nice sized fmic kit setup say 24x12x3 or something in that area you will probably want a bigger IC eventually. Unless you buy some fic 950cc injectors or bigger you may need to upgrade injectors again. Knowing that it's like buying a whole other setup on top of what you already have. If you have the money for that more power to you but I only have enough to mod it run it and fix it not mod it upgrade it....upgraded it again mod it fix it race it ect..

Well, unless the car starts out as a dedicated power whore feeding off a decent sized pile of money, it can be really hard to see where a setup will head in the future, and even then folks get 'used' to the power and want to go bigger, which can require some part swaps. Overlapping/redundant upgrades are par for the course for most people, and I'm no different. I think it's safe to say that most folks could build a second DSM to do exactly what they want, right out of the box, but for the same group it takes DSM V.1 to get your head wrapped around the minutiae associated with all the choices we have and how each might benefit or detract from a finished car.

My car is a DD at this point, and it needed to be reliable, so I have kept it relatively low key. I've made small upgrades as $$ allows, and have only doubled up on injectors and IC's, parts which are easy to resell. The second set of injectors I bought were 950's so that I could run e85, and the IC is a Dejon big smic, because it will support 400hp and I don't want a huge fmic hanging out front. If I had started building it with the intention to have a 400hp+ car, I probably would have used a larger turbo, gotten a fmic, Link, etc. But now that I know I can do it with the E316g, it's a challenge. And if I'm smart about what I do from now on, it'll benefit me in the future, and I can hopefully avoid any more forced upgrades.

 

[Slippi84]

Well, unless the car starts out as a dedicated power whore feeding off a decent sized pile of money, it can be really hard to see where a setup will head in the future, and even then folks get 'used' to the power and want to go bigger, which can require some part swaps. Overlapping/redundant upgrades are par for the course for most people, and I'm no different. I think it's safe to say that most folks could build a second DSM to do exactly what they want, right out of the box, but for the same group it takes DSM V.1 to get your head wrapped around the minutiae associated with all the choices we have and how each might benefit or detract from a finished car.

My car is a DD at this point, and it needed to be reliable, so I have kept it relatively low key. I've made small upgrades as $$ allows, and have only doubled up on injectors and IC's, parts which are easy to resell. The second set of injectors I bought were 950's so that I could run e85, and the IC is a Dejon big smic, because it will support 400hp and I don't want a huge fmic hanging out front. If I had started building it with the intention to have a 400hp+ car, I probably would have used a larger turbo, gotten a fmic, Link, etc. But now that I know I can do it with the E316g, it's a challenge. And if I'm smart about what I do from now on, it'll benefit me in the future, and I can hopefully avoid any more forced upgrades.

I agree. I'm not saying you will NEVER upgrade stuff even if you know exactly what you want but it's a lot cheaper to know what the ultimate goal of your car will be even if it's not your goal right this second. Like when I bought my car(read S H E L L ) I knew that I wanted to build a drag car. I didn't know it would be like it is now but I knew it was going to be a drag car. A long the way I swapped to a bigger IC bigger and turbo but only came out to spending a extra 300 and that's not even accurate because the IC swap got me a custom IC piping kit that would cost WAY more than what I got it for with the IC. Shit is gonna happen and thing will change but if you know what you want to do with the car and buy smart, meaning you don't buy parts that just barely support your current setup you will be better off in the long haul.

 

[dsm-onster]

You didn't but everyone else does. See the post above. Spools like a 16G with the power of a 42R GTFO.

^^^^ He's just stirring up the pot with nothing to contribute. No one here is talking about holset hx-whatever. We're talking about ALL the turbos and their ability vs. an e3 16g. What it take to get a 16g to 400whp and what it takes to get other turbos to 400whp. The hx40 was brought up as an example not a recommendation over a 16g. Some just don't know how to read.

Todd, you make the most sound point in the last few pages. I can see over building the 16g for a MUCH larger turbo later. If your goal is 600whp, then go get a SMIM, external gate, and other neccessities and get the 16g completely wrung out. Then trade turbos. Perfect point of view for a 600whp goal IMHO.

But if you're looking for a nice 400whp setup that wont cost you an arm and a leg, properly choose your turbine and be done with it. After all, a little bigger turbo can be pushed just as hard as an e3 16g on a stock longblock and just a pair of decent cams and intecooling and make well over 400whp. If it takes race gas and an external gate upgrade for 30psi to see 400whp out of a 16g, then what will race gas and 30psi with a larger turbo net? So if you choose a turbine that makes 400whp easier, you have room to grow still. Many with a 375-425whp car want more down the road. But I don't see too many who want more than 500whp. Reliability and fun go out the window along with the money invested.

 

[Slippi84]

He's just stirring up the pot with nothing to contribute. No one here is talking about holset hx-whatever. We're talking about ALL the turbos and their ability vs. an e3 16g. What it take to get a 16g to 400whp and what it takes to get other turbos to 400whp. The hx40 was brought up as an example not a recommendation over a 16g. Some just don't know how to read.

Todd, you make the most sound point in the last few pages. I can see over building the 16g for a MUCH larger turbo later. If your goal is 600whp, then go get a SMIM, external gate, and other neccessities and get the 16g completely wrung out. Then trade turbos. Perfect point of view for a 600whp goal IMHO.

But if you're looking for a nice 400whp setup that wont cost you an arm and a leg, properly choose your turbine and be done with it. After all, a little bigger turbo can be pushed just as hard as an e3 16g on a stock longblock and just a pair of decent cams and intecooling and make well over 400whp. If it takes race gas and an external gate upgrade for 30psi to see 400whp out of a 16g, then what will race gas and 30psi with a larger turbo net? So if you choose a turbine that makes 400whp easier, you have room to grow still. Many with a 375-425whp car want more down the road. But I don't see too many who want more than 500whp. Reliability and fun go out the window along with the money invested.

so true

 

[Highbooost]

Big words from a guy with a Pu$$y67. That turbo is CHEEKS!!! My hx52 will outflow and spool faster than that junk turbo without even breaking a sweat.

I love people who talk about what they WILL be doing vs what others are currently doing. Lets see that POS 67 made 420 whp on 16 psi (currently running 30+), yea what a psssy turbo, come back when your 9s no compromises is done in 10 years to prove your 52.

Later DR Turbo

 

[Slippi84]

I love people who talk about what they WILL be doing vs what others are currently doing. Lets see that POS 67 made 420 whp on 16 psi, yea what a psssy turbo, come back when your 9s no compromises is done in 10 years to prove your 52.

Later DR Turbo

You mean the build that hasn't even been goin on for a year and is a set of aluminum rods away from a complete long block your right it will be YEARS before it's done you got me. I am so sure about my turbo setup that if anyone wants to call bs on the hx52 I will bring it to the shootout and let you run it. You willing to do the same for your outdated turbo???

This isn't even about my setup it's about the turbos. WHat have you built lately

 

[Highbooost]

You mean the build that hasn't even been goin on for a year and is a set of aluminum rods away from a complete long block your right it will be YEARS before it's done you got me. I am so sure about my turbo setup that if anyone wants to call bs on the hx52 I will bring it to the shootout and let you run it. You willing to do the same for your outdated turbo???

This isn't even about my setup it's about the turbos. WHat have you built lately

What have I built, are you kidding? , http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/hangout/343343-who-dr-turbo.html

Listen rule number one of cars, NEVER talk smack about your car that doesn't run. In case you were wondering all the loosers who are running ball bearing garrets check this website out. DSMTimes.org - Home I am having trouble finding holsets in that sea of garrets.

Later Dr Turbo

 

[Slippi84]

What have I built, are you kidding? , http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/hangout/343343-who-dr-turbo.html

Listen rule number one of cars, NEVER talk smack about your car that doesn't run. In case you were wondering all the loosers who are running ball bearing garrets check this website out. DSMTimes.org - Home I am having trouble finding holsets in that sea of garrets.

Later Dr Turbo

Maybe we should go ask brent what he thinks of his garr.......Wait that's right he doesn't run a garret. Maybe we should ask shep about his....... Matter of fact show me one person that is building a descent setup RIGHT NOW that is using a garret. I just went to the panam's a couple weeks ago walking the pits almost everyone was using a borg and running low 7's or high 6's.

Tim Zimmer who used to tell everyone that his gt40 was where it's at I mean hell it spooled fast and made tons of power. He def knows his stuff and is a trusted and respected member on here. I think you see where i'm going with this one. DOn't compare a turbo or brand that has been out and popular for years to what is just catching now and exspect for cars to just start popping up like wildfire overnight running the fastest times but trust me you will see them.


Edit: I love all dsm's and most dsmers....ok all of them even if we don't agree all the time so I will say that you did some cool stuff with your build and you did the work yourself you didn't just take it to a shop or get TONS of help from a bunch of friends so I respect you and what you did but our builds are not on the same level. You did a burnout competeition back in 03 and did 12.9 or something I read with a 14b congrats(even though the fastest now is like mid to low 10's or something crazy) but don't come at me and my setup as a whole if that's all you got. You don't like the hx52 we can debate or talk about that, but as far as setups go don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

 

[matthewdesigns]

I agree. I'm not saying you will NEVER upgrade stuff even if you know exactly what you want but it's a lot cheaper to know what the ultimate goal of your car will be even if it's not your goal right this second. Like when I bought my car(read S H E L L ) I knew that I wanted to build a drag car. I didn't know it would be like it is now but I knew it was going to be a drag car. A long the way I swapped to a bigger IC bigger and turbo but only came out to spending a extra 300 and that's not even accurate because the IC swap got me a custom IC piping kit that would cost WAY more than what I got it for with the IC. Shit is gonna happen and thing will change but if you know what you want to do with the car and buy smart, meaning you don't buy parts that just barely support your current setup you will be better off in the long haul.

I'm hoping some Kelford 272's and an Evo3 intake mani will get me far enough along that I'll be happy for a while, b/c I'm not made of money either !

 

[98spydert]

98spydert, please stop showing your rear. You came in here claiming you have a 400whp evo3 16g build (without even providing a dyno sheet). You played off your upgraded turbine housing and wastegate with over $450 worth of parts as if it doesn't matter. When the point is "what does it take to make 400whp with a 16g?". You accused me of saying that it's not possible, when I and everyone agreed that it was possible long before you came intot eh discussion. We all know MUCH more has been made with the e3 16g. You attacked other's related discussion as unrelated (we are migrating to the practicality and what streetable turbos are more capable). You are really butting heads with everyone here a whole bunch for someone who hasn't even posted a picture of your results.

I didn't claim to have anything, my results were 6-7 years ago when these turbos were at the peak of their popularity. I don't own the car, I don't even have a tune left over from it.

If my old setup was totally realistic and common, why are you demanding proof? If we're all agreeing why are you nit picking my posts and being argumentative and disrespectful to everything I say? Now I'm "playing off" parts? WTF Now my wastegate set up is your new target? WTF The turbine housing wasn't enough? You have a problem with me so it doesn't matter what I say, you'll die before agreeing with me and you'll get the last word in no matter what. So have fun.

At least I openly agree with what you guys were saying while adding my own opinions. Learn a little tack and humility instead of taking unnecessary shots. I think the moderators should moderate those of you they deem "wiseman" more closely and teach you a little forum conduct. If something is irrelevant or already covered and doesn't need further discussion, maybe call it out. Don't take your shots, speak your mind, then come back later trying to save face and move on. Skip it over and keep the discussion on track rather than getting the last word in on every post.

[/with you]

To support my original claims of a realistic 400whp, even though I had the turbine housing which is said to be worth and additional 2 lbs/min, I also tuned the car to a liberal street tune that was at least 2psi, 2* of peak timing, .5 AFR, and a few counts of knock short of what it could have been. I think 400whp/120mph+ with the box E16G is still viable. Not a reasonable goal, not a great idea, but simple and realistic. YMMV I'll add that for what it's worth, but the last 2 pages of this thread have obviously turned into pissing contests and me vs. you skirmishes so I'm bowing out of that game.

 

[dsm-onster]

I just want to say that I never intended to offend you. I never "took a shot". I said that your turbine housing and wastegate setup (better o2 housing) makes a huge difference. I said it's not easy with a "box 16g". And you laughed and smuggly stated that you didn't even keep your dyno sheet. The thread speaks for itself. Everything is recorded. I've never said that it was impossible, nor stupid, as you claimed. I was the first person on the thread to admit that it's more than possible, just costly, which your build verifies, given that you really rolled on a dyno with it. I'm not debating it, because I've seen less do more. So please review what I said and think about things a little longer. I'm not taking shots when I state "but you did it with a turbine housing upgrade", or "No it's not easy. You had a turbine housing and o2 mounted gate helping you. That's an added cost. Let's be realistic." This is not the last word. This is me trying to show you that I wasn't intending or attempting to offend.

I'm hoping some Kelford 272's and an Evo3 intake mani will get me far enough along that I'll be happy for a while, b/c I'm not made of money either !

Some are seeing some great results with the evo3 intake manifold. I've always held the belief, based on my fluid dyn experience, that the 1g head ultimately has the better runners, large volume aside. But lately, seeing the great increase guys are actually logging with the evo3 manifold swap to their 2g head and talking with Kiggly briefly on the subject, I've been tempted to swap to a 2g head and add an evo3 intake manifold.

I think you will see your goal with that combination of cams and manifold.

 

[matthewdesigns]

I have a ported Evo3 exhaust mani installed already, and I figure why not try the whole Evo3 shebang, since I also have the turbo. I've done a ton of testing, and my airflow does not increase regardless of boost pressure above a certain point. The Evo3 ex mani managed to hold the flow steady above 6Krpm, and I'm hoping the intake will help with a slight increase up top. I think the cams are really what's going to wake the car up. We'll see.

 

[jrohner]

"Streetability" isn't something that can be argued, it's in the eye of the beholder.

Exactly!

 

[Dsmj89]

Long live the 16g ! As far as reliabilty goes and great street manners.
I have to say the evo3 16g is by far the best investment i have ever made on my car. Turbo spools great as well and the pull is nice considering i'm on stock fuel system till i can afford to start doing the fuel upgrades.