The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[1SloEvo]

Didn't you say it's made for N/A cars and not turbo cars? Or did I read that wrong? He was stating that you said nitromethane is made for N/A cars, not boosted cars in general, yet those 8000hp Top Fuel dragsters are boosted...intensely boosted! 8000hp from 500 c.i. takes a bit of air flow!

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Didn't you say it's made for N/A cars and not turbo cars? Or did I read that wrong? He was stating that you said nitromethane is made for N/A cars, not boosted cars in general, yet those 8000hp Top Fuel dragsters are boosted...intensely boosted! 8000hp from 500 c.i. takes a bit of air flow!

A supercharged engine isn't restricted by exhaust like a turbocharged smart guy. Thats why i just stated that i forgot to mention superchargers. Again, for the second time.. TURBO TURBO TURBO. A 14B with nitro-methane can not get all that exhaust gas out! Remember what i just said about breaking the shaft.. That would be a good way to see how fast it breaks i guess.

 

[Mr Peepers]

Hmmm I don't believe that can be the only problem since you could just use a very large wastegate to bypass the exhaust the turbo doesn't need around it; same principle as nitrous.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Hmmm I don't believe that can be the only problem since you could just use a very large wastegate to bypass the exhaust the turbo doesn't need around it; same principle as nitrous.

I don't run a wastegate, so this would be my problem then. So, if you used a wastegate to limit your pressure it would be pointless to even try to play with nitro. It wouldn't hold any credibility as it would be the "14b nitro-methane car".

 

[Kevin Jewer]

. You guys are talking about people and cars you don't know anything about. Some of these comments are ridiculous. I would stick to the 14b discussion.

 

[bullettdsm]

. You guys are talking about people and cars you don't know anything about. Some of these comments are ridiculous. I would stick to the 14b discussion.

Thanks Kev. It gets tiring to come in here and read silly discussions abo.......

Nevermind, thanks Kev.

MB

 

[Nate Crisman]

A supercharged engine isn't restricted by exhaust like a turbocharged smart guy. Thats why i just stated that i forgot to mention superchargers. Again, for the second time.. TURBO TURBO TURBO. A 14B with nitro-methane can not get all that exhaust gas out! Remember what i just said about breaking the shaft.. That would be a good way to see how fast it breaks i guess.

Horseshit! Your logic is full of holes.

a 2.0 4G63 with a 14b turbo with the same Tdo5H turbine wheel and same 7cm turbine housing as a E3 16g can move at least 499 whp worth of exhaust out as proven by your idol. If a 14b compressor side can only move about 350 whp worth of airflow, that means there is at least 149 whp of headroom that can be made with nitromethane mixed into methanol before hitting your theoretical brick wall of exhaust flow capacity. Just the same as if you sprayed a 150shot of nitrous oxide on top of the 350 whp 14b engine. There is nothing to stop a methanol fueled 14b engine from running say a 20% mix in of nitromethane and getting a significant power increase as a 14b turbo is not up against an exhaust back-pressure limit, it's power limit is defined by the compressor side.

The exhaust system doesn't care where the power comes from, be it all turbo, nitrous oxide, or nitromethane, and exhaust back pressure should be relatively close between methods of oxygen supply. Granted, running alky fuel I believe increases back pressure slightly compared to gasoline due to the fuel volume required to produce a given amount of power and that would also be higher for nitromethane and methanol compared to E85.

Simply put, given an additional supply of oxidizer (nitromethane, nitrous oxide, and to a limited effect methanol) a 14b turbocharger can make the same amount of power that a E3 16g or a TDO5H-20G turbocharger can make because the limit is now the turbine housing/turbine wheel. To say that a 14b turbo cannot "can not get all that exhaust gas out" and that nitromethane wouldn't work is simply a foolish statement. It's akin to saying that spraying nitrous oxide on a 14b car doesn't work.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

"We test it only with race fuel, we didnt had the chance with methanol as the turbo overspin and broke at 27psi 510.3awhp @ 26.6psi" Thats on a 13:1 motor.

Horseshit! Your logic is full of holes.

a 2.0 4G63 with a 14b turbo with the same Tdo5H turbine wheel and same 7cm turbine housing as a E3 16g can move at least 499 whp worth of exhaust out as proven by your idol. If a 14b compressor side can only move about 350 whp worth of airflow, that means there is at least 149 whp of headroom that can be made with nitromethane mixed into methanol before hitting your theoretical brick wall of exhaust flow capacity. Just the same as if you sprayed a 150shot of nitrous oxide on top of the 350 whp 14b engine.

The exhaust system doesn't care where the power comes from, be it all turbo, nitrous oxide, or nitromethane, and exhaust back pressure should be relatively close between methods of oxygen supply. Granted, running alky fuel I believe increases back pressure slightly compared to gasoline due to the fuel volume required to produce a given amount of power and that would also be higher for nitromethane and methanol compared to E85.

I said serious about running methane.. Not making 149hp more--thats baby shit.. Even still you would need '8' 2400cc injectors just to make 500hp on a 14b.

 

[Nate Crisman]

"We test it only with race fuel, we didnt had the chance with methanol as the turbo overspin and broke at 27psi 510.3awhp @ 26.6psi" Thats on a 13:1 motor.



I said serious about running methane.. Not making 149hp more--thats baby shit.. Even still you would need '8' 2400cc injectors just to make 500hp on a 14b.

yeah, so making 500whp on a 14b, which would easily surpass the record by a long shot would be "baby shit". unreal.

And Im sure that your guestimate on fuel requirement to make 500hp on nitromethane isn't a # you just pulled out of your ass.

Why is it every conversation with you has to be completely out of touch with reality? None of us are talking about running a 100% nitromethane fuel to make 2000hp! We are talking about using it as a small ratio additive to a car running Methanol alcohol fuel to pick up an amount of power that would by typical of a standard nitrous hit (approximately 50hp-125hp). It is not at all out of the realm of possibility that it hasn't already been done, nor that anyone would even be able to tell asside from being at the track in person and noticing the fuel/exhaust smell. (no bottle/noids/hoses to hide when compared to a nitrous oxide kit)

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Odd because this says "9,090cc we will use 4 of them and 4 of the 2450cc" thats for a 2000hp nitro car.

Do the math.. over 11,500cc per cylinder for 2000hp. Would take '8' 1600s roughly

yeah, so making 500whp on a 14b, which would easily surpass the record by a long shot would be "baby shit". unreal.

Do you honestly think that you would be in the category if you ran nitro.. You would be all by yourself

 

[Nate Crisman]

Do you honestly think that you would be in the category if you ran nitro.. You would be all by yourself

At worst, cutting nitromethane into the base would be no different than running with a nitrous oxide kit, which is an accepted record by pretty much everyone in this conversation.

Thus far there has not really been a conversation about fuel choice in regards to records? Everyone seems to be fine with Alcohol fuel with the availability of E85. Everyone seems to be fine with any type of leaded racing gasoline regardless of it's oxygen content (VP Q16 or import). I haven't heard anyone complain about my plans to run primarily on methanol. If I run VP M5 methanol (which has a hint of nitro in it) instead of M1 methanol, does the peanut gallery say that makes a difference in classification to where M1 is good for the non-nitrous record but M5 belongs in the "w/ nitrous" category based on oxidizer content

What Im trying to get at is that one could easily sneak in a percentage of nitromethane into their base alcohol fuel and make record breaking passes and still claim it was done "all turbo - no nitrous oxide" and noone would be the wiser. For all I know, it's possible to mix in with ethanol base fuel and it has been going on already. All I can say with certainty is that with methanol it is completely doable.

And if we are going to start changing which record category a car falls into depending on what fuel is in the tank...then we need to re-examine things a bit with regards to oxygenated racegas, methanol, and possibly even E85 if it turns out it can be cut with nitro.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

What Im trying to get at is that one could easily sneak in a percentage of nitromethane into their base alcohol fuel and make record breaking passes and still claim it was done "all turbo - no nitrous oxide" and noone would be the wiser. For all I know, it's possible to mix in with ethanol base fuel and it has been going on already. All I can say with certainty is that with methanol it is completely doable.

Would never fly.. That would mean any single person on this forum can make 500hp on a 14b with different percents of nitro. I'm not even the person that brought this bullshit up.

All I can say with certainty is that with methanol it is completely doable.

Very easy--Nitro already contains 1/3 meth.. So pretty much you can just distill it.

And if we are going to start changing which record category a car falls into depending on what fuel is in the tank...then we need to re-examine things a bit with regards to oxygenated racegas, methanol, and possibly even E85 if it turns out it can be cut with nitro.

We haven't already?

 

[SBstar]

We've discovered yet another classic discussion out of the 14b thread. Now we're bringing methane into the dsm world. However, it again takes it way out of the realm of 99% of us who for the most part were thinking 14b for a budgetary reason. That's ok though, you fella's go for it, guys like me and Phil will stick with what we got and what we can afford and understand !

 

[pneumo]

This talk of exotic fuels is a big turn-off to me.
One of the things I really like about E85 is that I can drive on the street with the same tune that I use at the track. For years I had been driving to the track on pumpgas while trying to reach the track on a nearly empty tank so I could add a few gallons of racegas and not dilute it too much. Then I'd do a rough tune for the new high octane gas mix and race. On the way home I'l fill up on pump gas and retune again. pita.
I don't want to go down that path again. OTOH if I were motivated to do it again with E85 and nitro-methane I already have the skills from past experience.

 

[91stocker]

But what would in fact solve all the questions would be if the rumors were true. That alone would make a lot of sense as to the numbers he produces with these rumored "basic" upgrades.

Thats my point, who builds a motor completely around a 14b yet has the budget to run exotic fuels, etc.

This talk of exotic fuels is a big turn-off to me.
One of the things I really like about E85 is that I can drive on the street with the same tune that I use at the track. For years I had been driving to the track on pumpgas while trying to reach the track on a nearly empty tank so I could add a few gallons of racegas and not dilute it too much. Then I'd do a rough tune for the new high octane gas mix and race. On the way home I'l fill up on pump gas and retune again. pita.
I don't want to go down that path again. OTOH if I were motivated to do it again with E85 and nitro-methane I already have the skills from past experience.

Has anyone else seen local closers of e85 stations? It was a big deal for a minute now it seems the fad is over as well as support. The only station near by now is a 30 minute drive. and i am way to drunk to drive to the devils house

 

[1SloEvo]

The closest station to me didn't close, but their supplier either stopped carrying E85 or something went bad on the contract. A couple friends of mine were giving them more information to get the stuff from other suppliers. However, Cali has some law enforcement vehicles that are flex fuel capable, so I don't think it's going away from us, even though you might have to drive half hour to get it!

 

[SBstar]

E-85 is still at several stations in my town and there are a couple on the way and returning from either drag strip I utilize. I with Pneumo agree, it's nice to be able to keep the same tune on the street to the racetrack and while racing. It's a pain in the butt to tune and re-tune every trip. E-85 is readily available at the pump and is far from putting anyone in another league such as methane or methanol does.

Any time you make record feel like it's worth something there is going to be crazy discussions about how you could do it BEYOND what anyone may actually try to attempt. It's almost sad that very few people cared about it when Joe was making passes, but now it seems like it's the IN thing to do and people are coming out of the woodwork with theoretical (supposedly legitimate) setups that rival stuff that is done in professional drag racing! Guys like Leon, Joe, Phil, and Dave did it on normal setups and no one more-so then Phil. We have yet to see anyone with any of these outrageous setups do anything yet though, and we'll sit back and continue to wait to see someone actually produce something. For now the majority of us will stick with what works, and what has worked.

 

[Phil1320]

That about sums it up. Some of this stuff is way beyond my scope of understanding, #1, and way beyond where I'll ever want to go with any car I ever own. Not to say some of the ideas aren't interesting, they are. However, the reliability of any of those set ups is definitely in question. One of my big things, especially when I still ran my car on the street, was reliability, 100% reliability, perfect idle, perfect off-throttle, etc. At first I even hesitated to go to the 2G MAF, but, it was needed, and it has been fine. In the past, I did just as Dave said with driving to the track......however I would get the tank to a low level and I would bring a 5 gallon jug of race gas with me, generally crappy CAM2 110 and toss some in at a rest stop on the way up....so it was already in the system when I got there...then I would add VP C16 once I was there. As far as E85.....very cool that you can run it both on the street and strip with no tune changes. I basically ran pump gas on my "race tune" haha...just with the boost 5 lbs. lower than I'd run at the strip....never had a problem. But, now that I don't run the car on the street...that's not something that pertains to me, therefore.....E85 doesn't provide me much other than having to add larger injectors, i.e. cost me useless money, etc. And, again, it's not readily available in this winter hole I live in anyway. So, again, with breakdowns, until things change, and even if they do, I will be as Kiggly advertises, GAS runs. I will agree, that the meth, methane, nitro methane, whatever you want to call all that, is in a different category than E85. I mean, I don't get VP out of the pump, and there are some here or there, I get it out of a 5 or 50 gallon jug.......so it's not pump gas.......but it was always, pump gas or race gas, cut and dry. Until E85 is universal, even though it comes out of a pump, I wouldn't call it "pump gas" in the sense that pump gas has been known over the years. To me it is an alternative fuel just as VP is.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Here are my feeling regarding fuel and oxidizer with regards to "classification" for turbo specific records:

I feel pump-gas is to racegas like E85 is to methanol. All of the arguments that I have heard thus far about Methanol as a fuel can be projected onto racegas. It's expensive, limited availability, has a significant performance benefit over pumpgas, requires specific tuning to optimize at track. No one has a problem with all the cars that have run C16 over the years, therefor I don't see how anyone can complain about Methanol when it has been widely accepted to run Ethanol. Methanol is simply another alcohol fuel that has a slight performance benefit over the "pump" version of alcohol E85, a "race alky" if you will. It comes with it's own downsides in maintenance, specific tuning, and part selection....big whoop, since when has chasing a record supposed to be easy and simple.

I feel Methanol as a base fuel should be classified the same as C16. It is available in the same places (sold at damn near every dragstrip from the same guy that sell 116 gasoline). It's price point is nearly exactly on par, Sunoco Meth was $6/gal last time vs $12 for 116 Gas at Island Dragway.

Methanol has been available to every DSMer for the entire time that DSM's have been at the drag strip. There was NOTHING to prevent Dave Buschur, Sean Glazer, Joe Bucci, Curt Brown, or any of the current people running small turbo cars today from running methanol at the drag strip. Nothing has changed with regard to availability/tuning of this fuel in 20 years. The only change is the common availability of huge injectors today, where "back in the day" you would have had to run 8 injectors and a standalone (no big deal in the slightest, as many were running haltech's then anyway as the stock ecu thing wasn't figured out until recently). Today there is NOTHING standing in anyone's way except the will to do it and the effort to learn and try. Phil/Dave/Hubs could run his car on methanol the next day at the track if he wanted to, he'd just have to work out the tune and possibly swap a few small parts. If you can run E85, then you can run Methanol at least in some various amount.

I can see trying to classify cars by the fuel they run as a very slippery slope. Lets say hypothetically that we, as a group, decide Methanol fuel should go with nitrous oxide records. How about cars that run pumpgas in the fuel tank and spray methanol injection in the IC pipe...is that illegal? How about a car that runs E85 and sprays methanol in the ic pipe? How about a car that has gasoline in the fuel tank, but has 3 shurflo pumps and 8 M15 meth nozzles and is actually running 80% of it's fuel supply through a crazy meth injection kit? Go look at Lucas English's old 16g/auto setup where they ran a TON of meth through an injection kit. Where do you draw the line? And by what grounds is that line drawn? Classification by fuel can become a huge can of worms very quickly.

Another point I'd like to make is that if one would want to classify Methanol as an oxidized fuel, the by those same grounds many varients of leaded race gas should be classified the same way. If it is deemed that M3 and M5 methanol are "illegal" or "cheating" because of the oxygen content, than I would make the case that Q16 and VP import and many other racegas varients are also cheating.

My end feeling on this is that fuel has to be realistically kept open. Pumpgas, Racegas, oxygenated racegas, E85, E100 Ethanol, Methanol, and any mix should be classified the same as we always have for the standard 14b record of 10.84.



As for Nitro-Methane: I really do believe that Nitro-methane addition should be classified with Nitrous oxide due to it's ability to give a nearly limitless potential for horsepower. Anyone can run as much E85/Racegas/Methanol fuel into the engine they want, but it will only make as much power as the 14b has capability to deliver oxygen. Nitromethane and Nitrous oxide on the other hand open up the possibility to make power up to the mechanical limits of the engine. While not realistic for the sake of convention, it is not out of the realm of possibility to make multiple hundreds of horsepower over a typical "14b only" engine with either version of nitro, thus they must be classified seperately, as they have for the better part of the last decade.

As of today, I believe myself and Joe B are the only ones to really run nitrous oxide, therefor the point is somewhat moot. Joe is done racing for the 14b record and I'm the only one who is even talking about chasing his "With Nitrous" record.

I don't know anyone who has actually tried mixing in nitromethane, and in all honesty, I don't forsee anyone doing it. Not when the same power potential is available with nitrous oxide at a favorable ease of use and cost. The only reason to go the Nitromethane route would be detection, as I said before in a previous post, since noone really expects a nitro fuel additive, it could fly under the radar as we only classify and race by the "with or without nitrous oxide" clause. I don't see a "no nitromethane" rule for the DST class, therefor, it is legal. It's never been discussed in regard to a 14b/16g record. IMHO nitromethane additive should be put with nitrous oxide due to easy power potential, even if the delivery method is different.

 

[1SloEvo]

Easy way to classify...if it's not something that's "readily" available. By that, I mean something you can buy at a performance shop made by sunoco or whatever brand you prefer...to include any "pump gas" or E85. The big thing people are making a big issue about is the whole nitro-meth discussion. I've never seen any place where I can just stop and pick-up nitro-meth. Most anything Q16, Methanol or less can be picked up in these locations.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Easy way to classify...if it's not something that's "readily" available. By that, I mean something you can buy at a performance shop made by sunoco or whatever brand you prefer...to include any "pump gas" or E85. The big thing people are making a big issue about is the whole nitro-meth discussion. I've never seen any place where I can just stop and pick-up nitro-meth. Most anything Q16, Methanol or less can be picked up in these locations.

Agree'd. I believe there has been a bit of misunderstanding going on in this thread because we have terms being thrown around that are similar and confusing. Methane, Nitromethane, Nitro-Meth, Methanol, Meth, Nitro, Nitrous Oxide, Alky, Ethanol. I can see how we have confusion as just in that list we have 9 different names for 4 different things. Nitromethane, Methanol, Methane are 3 completely different things! Meth, Nitro, Alky are slang.

For the record...I don't intend to evenr touch nitromethane. It's crazy expensive, very dangerous, and Im an honest guy with nothing to hide. My plan for 2011 is to start out at a 50/50 mix of E85 and Methanol and increase the ratio of methanol until I run out of fuel supply capacity. I'm pretty sure I should be able to get very near 100% methanol.

I don't believe I'll have a need for nitro-methane anyway, as Im pretty confident in being able to best the current records on Methanol or E85. The whole Nitromethane conversation was simply "what if" and purely theoretical. Actually, my original point with nitromethane was to give people the heads up that if you see a 14b car claiming "no nitrous" and somehow putting down insane power numbers that don't make sense...and it's running an alcohol fuel.....maybe that's why

Edit: you can buy nitro-methane by the gallon at most hobby stores that deal with rc airplanes or offroad nitro trucks. Ususally it has lubricant. It's mixed at ratio's of between 20 and 30% nitromethane with 70-75% Methanol. Lube content is in the 8 -12% range. Kinda funny, but I think I can buy nitromethane easier than I can buy 116 racegas! So if that's the rule - Availability - nitromethane is in! hahaha

Any time you make record feel like it's worth something there is going to be crazy discussions about how you could do it BEYOND what anyone may actually try to attempt. It's almost sad that very few people cared about it when Joe was making passes, but now it seems like it's the IN thing to do and people are coming out of the woodwork with theoretical (supposedly legitimate) setups that rival stuff that is done in professional drag racing! Guys like Leon, Joe, Phil, and Dave did it on normal setups and no one more-so then Phil.

Frankly, I couldn't disagree with you more on your point about "normal setups". Everyone is entitled to there preferences and opinions, and mine is that I don't take part in this hobby to play "follow the leader". Im involved to be the leader. Nothing gets me revved up and excited like trying to figure out a new setup, a new advantage, or a new part. I have absolutely no interest in building a car that's the same as Leon, Joe, Phil, and Dave. Given the circumstances, I'd love to beat them all with the craziest setup that noone else would duplicate or attempt to try and make work. I look at this as an adventure with plenty of new things to try and plenty of things to learn tease:mostly by expensive mistakes!) To me Normal = Boring. Why would I want to build the same car as phil and duke it out for a hundreth of ET here and there? Variety is the spice of small turbo racing.

I will also call into question your definition of "normal". Leon, JoeB, and Dave all had some very heavy duty modifications long their small turbo paths to fame. Leon used to take crap from everyone because of a fully built engine, ported head, sheet intake, big cams, AEM EMS. Leon's engine in 2004 likely costs more than my entire car today. It was anything BUT normal, actually pretty unique. Dave's mod list during his most recent 16g passes is quite heavy. exotic dual disk clutch, 2g head/Evo3 manifold, custom eprom tuning, race engine, optimized piping. JoeB has IMHO the most unique and "not normal" setup of all! we are talking about a sub 2000lb full tilt RACECAR here! Nothing screams normal to me like lexan windows, slicks&skinnies, 800lb of gutting, 1gal fuel cell, and haltech standalone! I will give it to you that Phil's car is the most "normal" of these 4, but he still has by his own admission "one of the lightest AWD 1G's in existence" on full slicks that is now a full on race car and not street-able.

What exactly is "NORMAL" about any of the 4 cars you chose? They run a small turbo. They all have gone to varying degree of extreme to remove weight. That's it. That's the only tie that binds! IMHO all 4 of these cars are in their own way completely out of touch with normalcy. (and that's a good thing!)

We have yet to see anyone with any of these outrageous setups do anything yet though, and we'll sit back and continue to wait to see someone actually produce something. For now the majority of us will stick with what works, and what has worked.

Im not sure if that's aimed at me, but I suspect it is since Im usually the one talking about exotic things.

First off...my last pass was a 6.71 @ 106 at half track. That's the third quickest and second fastest 16g 1/8mile on the list. JoeBucci and Pat Donaldson are the only ones quicker, both record holding passes. I did that most likely on 3.5 cyl, as by the 1/8mile I had one cylinder completely vented to atmosphere! hahaha It was also on a weak 60' and with the boost set incorrectly. Not a doubt in my mind there is 3-4 tenths of 1/8mile ET to come off with the minor changes, which would put it in the running for the overall 16g record. IMO, that's "producing something". It's not like Iv been on here talking for years and not out at the track making progress. It's not like I don't have a history of going out and doing what I say Im going to do. I hope your not lumping me in with the rest of the bench racers "shooting for the record" who have barely made a pass yet.

And a final poke in the eye to all of you "stick with what works" followers, I pose this question: How do you expect to beat the record when you're only plan is to simply do the same thing as the current record holder, but to a lesser extent? I haven't seen any record breaking results from sticking with what works! Joe Bucci has had (2) 14b and the overall 16g record for going on the better part of a decade now. Why? Because no-one has yet attempted to push the envelope and out-do him. Playing follow the leader is not going to surpass him. Only a setup even more outrageous than Project Goodwill is capable of beating project goodwill.

 

[Phil1320]

All interesting stuff. Thanks for the designation Shane....and if I'm hearing you right you're talking of ENGINE set-up as "normal" not necessarily the whole car per se', right? Nate, I don't think NORMAL = STREET CAR......that's what I'm getting from you. Back when I took the record from Leon......my car was just that....a street car as was Leon's as I remember. All I remember is him discounting many of his mods saying they weren't an advantage to 14b power making. Obviously, Pneumo proved that wrong.....all the BIG TURBO mods and engine work without a shadow of a doubt boosted the performance of the 14b....118 mph in a 2800 lb. car......My superlight car couldn't even hit that trap speed.

As far as the fuels go....I could really care less what anyone uses. It is what it is........however I would categorize like this relative to what I've read from you guys:

GAS

NOS

Nitro-methane/methane


All the other stuff E85 etc. falls somewhere in the middle I guess....but hey it comes out of the pump so call it GAS. But, knowing the distinct advantage that E85 has over typical gas and most race gases......it's tough for me to call it a level playing field in the fuel category. But, like Nate said, if I want E85, I can get it in the next state and it is at my disposal, and is my CHOICE to run it if I want to...so if I don't, it's my loss and I can't be concerned or bothered by the gains others experience using it.

Fair enough.

I for one would rather beat Joe's record beating him at his own game, not coming in with stuff that was not available to him, or that he chose not to use. However, sure, to come in almost knowing it's inevitable you can best him is fine.

One place I will tell you that I will best Project Goodwill is in the weight department.....I've got some ideas and I can say that my total race weight will be lighter than his...and not by 20 lbs. either.........

We all have our own paths....even though my car is a "race" car.....that doesn't mean a no holds barred approach will apply to all aspects of it. I'm no longer super concerned with beating the 10.84 pass really....and honestly, if there's a 14b on my car for more than one outing this year I will be surprised.....

This game is not what it used to be for me. It's work, not fun. I'm finally looking to have some fun......

 

[hubz91talontsi]

And a final poke in the eye to all of you "stick with what works" followers, I pose this question: How do you expect to beat the record when you're only plan is to simply do the same thing as the current record holder, but to a lesser extent? I haven't seen any record breaking results from sticking with what works! Joe Bucci has had (2) 14b and the overall 16g record for going on the better part of a decade now. Why? Because no-one has yet attempted to push the envelope and out-do him. Playing follow the leader is not going to surpass him. Only a setup even more outrageous than Project Goodwill is capable of beating project goodwill.

couldn't agree more!! That's what I've been saying the entire time. For those questioning who spends all that money on a 14b car--let's get real.. You can use every single piece of you 14b car for a larger turbo car. The same that curt did.. The 16g motor is exactly the same motor in his 3586 car and still the exact motor in brad gary's 3586 car. Stop the budget talk. A awd 14b car will not beat any records on a budget

 

[1SloEvo]

One place I will tell you that I will best Project Goodwill is in the weight department.....I've got some ideas and I can say that my total race weight will be lighter than his...and not by 20 lbs. either.........

That's pretty intense Phil. Not that I want you to give me your information, but I'm curious about how you plan to get an AWD that lightweight. Will definitely take a lot of lightweight parts, panels, etc! Looking forward to seeing how your car does, even if the 14b is gone.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Thanks for the designation Shane....and if I'm hearing you right you're talking of ENGINE set-up as "normal" not neccessarily the whole car per se", right? Nate, I don't think NORMAL = STREET CAR......that's what I'm getting from you. Back when I took the record from Leon......my car was just that....a street car as was Leon's as I remember. All I remember is him discounting many of his mods saying they weren't an advantage to 14b power making. Obviously, Pneumo proved that wrong.....all the BIG TURBO mods and engine work without a shadow of a doubt boosted the performance of the 14b....118 mph in a 2800 lb. car......My superlight car couldn't even hit that trap speed.

I don't think any of the cars in question are normal at all, be it via engine or overall setup. I was trying to get SBstar to explain what specific parts or modifications were in common the 4 cars he listed in contrast to mine that he calls "outragous". Frankly, my car is very basic with it having a completely stock engine, trans, driveline. The only oddball stuff is my fuel system (exactly the same as Joe Bucci's) and the water intercooler (again..same as JoeB's). Leon and Dave have me WAY outgunned in engine mods, and you have me way outgunned in weight mods.

I'm seriously baffled to understand what makes my setup is "outragous", but the 4 other cars mentioned equal or surpass me in modification in every area.

I for one would rather beat Joe's record beating him at his own game, not coming in with stuff that was not available to him, or that he chose not to use. However, sure, to come in almost knowing it's inevitable you can best him is fine.

One place I will tell you that I will best Project Goodwill is in the weight department.....I've got some ideas and I can say that my total race weight will be lighter than his...and not by 20 lbs. either.........

We all have our own paths....even though my car is a "race" car.....that doesn't mean a no holds barred approach will apply to all aspects of it. I'm no longer super concerned with beating the 10.84 pass really....and honestly, if there's a 14b on my car for more than one outing this year I will be surprised.....

Awesome to hear that your going to be running in 2011 and having fun and going faster. Your going to be in a much better place by trying to go faster rather than sitting on your duff and trying to eeek out another tenth from the current setup.

The only thing I can dispute is "beating JoeB" at his own game by not using parts that were't available to him that seem to be part of the current hot combo's:

Automatic AWD: available 1991 oem stock...works great STOCK
Nitrous: same kits sold in 2011 as back in 1995
Methanol/Racegas: pretty much the same stuff for the last 2 decades
cutting tools, welder: all available for weight loss in 2004 when JoeB was running.
2G heads were free back then. Evo3 intakes were availble (just unknown)

The only things that I can see any of us are utilizing that was not available to JoeB back in 2004 is DSMlink and large injectors. But Joe was running a haltech standalone which has setup for 8 injector drivers, so the point is moot. Joe Bucci had nearly everything at his disposal in 2004 as we enjoy today. There was nothing stopping him from running Alky fuel, a 2g head, huge nitrous, or any of today's combinations other than his will to do so. He simply chose not to take advantage of these things.

I don't think any of us are trying to beat the records with any unfair technology advantage. We are simply going to beat the records on the basis of effort, knowledge, and ability. There is no magic bullet that we have to day that Joe did not.