The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Phil1320]

Very true, points taken, BUT.....he didn't have to exercise any of the things that he didn't use. In plain English.....he kicked the S**T out of everyone and still holds the marks and only a couple are even close to his numbers with any of the small turbos. Like you said, almost a decade and the numbers haven't been beat. However, it's only been about the last 6 months where anyone other than a handful of us have even been in the conversation.

Quite honestly....I only put stock in people who have run their cars down the strip and have something to show for the set ups in question. It's just not fun to sit here and listen to a bunch of BS technical talk when someone hasn't even run the 1320 with a 14b. And still, to this day, actively speaking, my basic bare bones gutted out set up is still king over all the "talk." I've laid challenges down for the talkers.....I'm ready when they are.....

 

[94TSiAWD]

This is so awesome! You guys have me so fired up!

I can't believe it has been so long since I ran those times! I totally expected someone to beat my times a long time ago. The way people were talking to me back then, them and their friends had setups planned that would put mine to shame. Everyone told me ANYONE can gut a car to be a tin can and run fast on a small turbo. 7 years later. Damn near to the day, I'm reading this thread and you guys talking about my records.

Nate, you are right, there were a lot of things I didn't take advantage of. If I only knew then what I know now... I had budget limitations, I was stubborn and unwilling to try something too far in left field and I just plain had a lack of knowledge about some things. I don't think anyone should limit or restrict themselves when going after a record. The whole idea is to find an advantage no one else has taken advantage of.

I've been over the how much MORE weight could have been dropped, and it's a lot. There were several hard parts I could have upgraded to make more power. I could have tried fuels besides VP C-16. I intended to run Methanol in my car when I took it down for planned upgrades, but building a proper fuel system was a big part of the reason it was never completed. Had I kept it simple, I'd probably still have the car.

Like I said, if I knew then, what I know now...

 

[Nate Crisman]

Very true, points taken, BUT.....he didn't have to exercise any of the things that he didn't use. In plain English.....he kicked the S**T out of everyone and still holds the marks and only a couple are even close to his numbers with any of the small turbos. Like you said, almost a decade and the numbers haven't been beat. However, it's only been about the last 6 months where anyone other than a handful of us have even been in the conversation.

Quite honestly....I only put stock in people who have run their cars down the strip and have something to show for the set ups in question. It's just not fun to sit here and listen to a bunch of BS technical talk when someone hasn't even run the 1320 with a 14b. And still, to this day, actively speaking, my basic bare bones gutted out set up is still king over all the "talk." I've laid challenges down for the talkers.....I'm ready when they are.....

So are you sticking with the 14b or are you ready to move up to the BIG GUN? (E316g)

This is so awesome! You guys have me so fired up!

I can't believe it has been so long since I ran those times! I totally expected someone to beat my times a long time ago. The way people were talking to me back then, them and their friends had setups planned that would put mine to shame. Everyone told me ANYONE can gut a car to be a tin can and run fast on a small turbo. 7 years later. Damn near to the day, I'm reading this thread and you guys talking about my records.

Nate, you are right, there were a lot of things I didn't take advantage of. If I only knew then what I know now... I had budget limitations, I was stubborn and unwilling to try something too far in left field and I just plain had a lack of knowledge about some things. I don't think anyone should limit or restrict themselves when going after a record. The whole idea is to find an advantage no one else has taken advantage of.

I've been over the how much MORE weight could have been dropped, and it's a lot. There were several hard parts I could have upgraded to make more power. I could have tried fuels besides VP C-16. I intended to run Methanol in my car when I took it down for planned upgrades, but building a proper fuel system was a big part of the reason it was never completed. Had I kept it simple, I'd probably still have the car.

Like I said, if I knew then, what I know now...

Dude...you hit the nail on the head! "if I only knew,then what I know know". That's pretty much my entire motivation in DSM stuff. I look back at all the times Iv raced my car: 2002 with a 50trim, 2004 with 14b, 2005 with GT35R and every time I see the same thing: I was an idiot back then! I left so many things on the table because I to, was stubborn and didn't want to try new things.

Now, Im obviously all about trying new stuff and experimenting. Shit, in 2010 I ran on 4 different fuels (pump, racegas, E85, methanol) in two different driveline systems (manual and auto swap). If anything, Im keeping busy!

My hope is that you can be fired up enough to go find a cheap DSM and get back into Project Goodwill 2 And keep it simple this time!

 

[Phil1320]

It depends how the car runs the first time out with the 14b....even though, I won't toy with it much longer. I honestly think my run was my run, and when the turbo went.....that was the end of the run. The integrity is now gone from what I "had."

If I go out and run two tenths quicker minimum, so 11.29 or better, I'll go back out again....if I'm only able to match my 11.49 with consistency...as in I'm running solid 11.40's with a 11.38-9 as my best run....I will most likely end it there.

Best run stock: 14.85 @ 90.85 lowest ET and best MPH

Best ET to date: 11.49

Best MPH to date: 116.85

So, 3.36 seconds reduction in ET

and, exactly 26 mph gain, with bolt ons........

Most here, if any, have been able to take a car from bone stock original and gradually over time watch the progression. I know most people don't give a rat's ass about that either, however, that's what made it fun for me. I can tell anyone exactly what I ran, at what weight and with what mods over the whole course. There's not a whole heck of alot motivating me at this point. Here's where the money spending really starts, and I'm interested, just not sure it's the route for me. Toss an E3 on there for $500 and I'll pick up more ET than all the rest of EVERYTHING I could ever do to the car keeping the 14b on it. And that EVERYTHING could = $10,000 in the blink of an eye.

Since many like to use Curt Brown as THE example....I'll buy in a little bit. Hubz stated his "lower" HP 16g car was at 450 AWHP. So, we'll use that to keep it "conservative." Take my car at 2470 race weight, ditch my measely 295 AWHP and toss in Curt's 450 AWHP 16g........do the math, where do you think I'd be running? I should be crushing the 10.33 effort of Pat Donaldson and Pneumos 10.5 pass with ease....or would I? So it's all about the power to weight.......and with that, why do I really wanna play much longer with the 14b? To be honest, I don't even want to put it back on the car for these reasons alone. But, I know there is a potential "jump' in power for me with the 14b that may net a decent ET gain, so I'm figuring what the hell, I'll give it another shot. Now, I know I won't make the TOP SECRET 450 AWHP with the 16g, but give me 100 over what I have now, so 395 AWHP and we are still hypothetically at a mid 10 second pass.

So, maybe I'll see a drop in ET the next time out due to a better second 1/8 as well as optimizing my first 1/8. As my car sat, it was a killer 1/8 mile car, just not a strong finisher in the 1/4. As I said elsewhere, I'm closer to besting Joe's 14b 1/8 mile ET....we can use the 6.99 1/8 ET from the 10.87 timeslip on his site for measure. BTW, Joe where is THE 10.84 slip? I would imagine you might have gone 6.97-6.98 1/8 on the record pass?


That's it for now...

That's pretty intense Phil. Not that I want you to give me your information, but I'm curious about how you plan to get an AWD that lightweight. Will definitely take a lot of lightweight parts, panels, etc! Looking forward to seeing how your car does, even if the 14b is gone.

Well, here's one bit of info as far as weight goes. I've only hit one 11.49 pass and never been quicker than that.....so there's no rollbar in the car yet.......

...and thanks by the way!

 

[94TSiAWD]

Phil, I know exactly where you are coming from. Scraping for every 100th of a second gets old after a while, knowing you can bolt on a $500 turbo and cut a full second of easily. Thats why I was so quick to go to the 16g after I hit 10s on the 14b. The day I first went 10s, I went to the track by myself. Everyone was too busy to go with me. I made two passes, both in the 10s. I decided at that point, I would try the 14b with NOS one time, then go to a 16g. So I loaded it up on the trailer and went home.

So, I made 2 passes no NOS that day, the timeslips are Here

A few weeks later, I made one pass on a 30 shot, one on a 60 shot, and two on a 75 shot that were slower than the 30 shot for some reason. Two of the slips are Here

This leads me to the answer to your question Phil. I believe the 10.84 @ 126 number written in on DSMTimes, is one of my 75 shot times and I ####ed that up somehow when submitting... The slips linked above are all of the legit slips.

 

[Phil1320]

Phil, I know exactly where you are coming from. Scraping for every 100th of a second gets old after a while, knowing you can bolt on a $500 turbo and cut a full second of easily. Thats why I was so quick to go to the 16g after I hit 10s on the 14b. The day I first went 10s, I went to the track by myself. Everyone was too busy to go with me. I made two passes, both in the 10s. I decided at that point, I would try the 14b with NOS one time, then go to a 16g. So I loaded it up on the trailer and went home.

So, I made 2 passes no NOS that day, the timeslips are Here

A few weeks later, I made one pass on a 30 shot, one on a 60 shot, and two on a 75 shot that were slower than the 30 shot for some reason. Two of the slips are Here

This leads me to the answer to your question Phil. I believe the 10.84 @ 126 number written in on DSMTimes, is one of my 75 shot times and I ####ed that up somehow when submitting... The slips linked above are all of the legit slips.

Exactly...it just wears you thin after a while. And with the sparse and spread out opportunities that I get to go to the strip at all these days....it really is dragging it out. And, yes, the $$$ has to be a consideration....I mean sure, tubular everything, custom magnesium front and rear control arms...magnesium 15" TE37's......carbon here and there and everywhere...sure it would be killer but there's the $10,000 I'm talking about and then some.

So.....I've been sitting at this crossroads for a while now.

AHHHHHHH.......I was wondering why the only slips on your page were 10.87 and 10.92 for the 14b no NOS. That would explain the MPH differences of over and under 125 mph.......

....ok so what you have just figured out based on my poking and prodding is that :

10.87 is the 14B ALL TIME 1/4 mile RECORD 6.99 is the ALL TIME 1/8 mile RECORD

Well that's cool then....don't sweat the mix up...we're talking 3 one-hundredths!

Glad I could help figure it all out

 

[hubz91talontsi]

I won't make the TOP SECRET 450 AWHP with the 16g, but give me 100 over what I have now, so 395 AWHP and we are still hypothetically at a mid 10 second pass.

Not to be so picky, but curts first car made the 450awhp the second was the one that made 499. Its confusing i know. The second car (exactly the same in color) thats why its confusing.. Had his custom motor in it--which he ran with the 3586. The 10.33 was ran in the 450awhp car(pats) I think a 10.33 will be easy for you phil. Keep in mind the first car was 2800lbs when he ran the 10.33. Curt is now running a fp green on his evo with a custom 2.3 that made almost 600hp and over 500ftlbs.(another record)

 

[Phil1320]

Not to be so picky, but curts first car made the 450awhp the second was the one that made 499. Its confusing i know. The second car (exactly the same in color) thats why its confusing.. Had his custom motor in it--which he ran with the 3586. The 10.33 was ran in the 450awhp car(pats) I think a 10.33 will be easy for you phil. Keep in mind the first car was 2800lbs when he ran the 10.33. Curt is now running a fp green on his evo with a custom 2.3 that made almost 600hp and over 500ftlbs.(another record)

I understand, I was just choosing the lower HP number as the basis for my comparison, that's all.

"(another record)"

 

[hubz91talontsi]

I understand, I was just choosing the lower HP number as the basis for my comparison, that's all.

Gotcha! The car that pat bought wasn't nearly as involved as the second. I think pat still bought that car for 17k! You can buy a evo easy with that kind of $$ today. Plenty of people in the 400 horsepower mark. The second person on the 16g board horsepower wise is also local. He was fwd however.(451)

Edit: First on the forum..

 

[ArcticTsi]

Jose!!!! Glad you're back man! Can't wait to see your car in action again!

Hey Phil, Hey man it has been a long road this time getting my car back to solid running condition. The last 5 years in storage really did a number on her. I guess because I stored it in Texas this time and the heat really played havoc on the car. Things either dry rotted or corroded in the heat. Changed out tires, pw str/alt belts, cv boots, radiator, battery, fuel assembly(in-tank), fuel pump. Finally had to hottank my fuel tank. Since I had parked it nearly right after my 12.1 run I only had a gallon or two of C16 in the tank. All that air in the tank caused the tank to corrode and rust above the fuel line. Not to mention short out my pump, sending unit. She finally seems to be purring again. But, now to my question. I had her somewhat tuned for when I was stationed at Florida. Which was pretty close to sea level. Now, I am stationed where the local track is at 4200 feet. Maybe it has been a while since I have road coursed her, but the car was feeling like I was hitting fuel cut at WOT. At this altitude should I be running my fuel trims differently? There is a Grudge match 1/4 event this weekend. Tempted to check it out to dial in a little bit of tuning on the car. Just not sure what to expect at such elevation.

 

[Steve93Talon]

This leads me to the answer to your question Phil. I believe the 10.84 @ 126 number written in on DSMTimes, is one of my 75 shot times and I ####ed that up somehow when submitting... The slips linked above are all of the legit slips.

Hey Joe, would you mind throwing up a list of mods at the point where you ran the fastest 14b times? I know you went to the W/A, Haltech, FP exhaust mani, Hawver intake, C.O.P., various cams, etc. but I think there's some confusion regarding at what point those parts went on the car (14b or 16g setup). Also, I know you were on 2@" slicks originally, and later went to 26" (?), which ones were you running on the 14b record passes? Thanks!

 

[94TSiAWD]

Hey Joe, would you mind throwing up a list of mods at the point where you ran the fastest 14b times?

If you go to my website, www.joebucci.com, click "about me", then click "race car", it will take you to a site with info about my car and the last mod list for the 9 second pass. There is also a link to the "Project Goodwill" site that will take you step by step through the mods on the way to the record 14b passes. Also, there is a link on the main Goodwill page to the record timeslips and an Excel spreadsheet of mods and money.

Here is that link... Spreadsheet

Record nitrous passes were on this set-up, but with the forged motor from the 16g mod list, and the badly worn, 5 year old, 26" Goodyear slicks that came with my Weld Wheels. Those tires were then replaced with M/Ts for the 16g passes.

As I recall...

 

[TSimage]

One thing I have always wondered is just how the 14b would react to a 2.3 stroker...

The ultimate goal with the Galant was to build an ultimate road warrior which would consist of a HX35 7 blade billet setup preferably T3... Now that I am in a position where the fate of the car is up in the air I have a chance to grab up a 2.3 and this has been pecking away. Considering the nature of the 2.3 I would be pushing this little guy even further out of its range far before the typical 6.5-7K most run their 14bs to. Seeing Lucas' success with his 2.3 has me thinking long and hard about my options.

Naturally going 2.3 will result in taking more money out of the Talon fund but eh' whats new right? .

 

[Kevin Jewer]

A stroker won't push the turbo any harder IMO. The airflow will still max out at the same mass flow, the boost will just be lower (~15-20% absolute). Flow through the turbine is unchanged, etc. Moving the same air mass at lower boost is generally a good thing, since more boost is more heat, and more drive pressure. It should add up to an increase in performance, the question is just how much, and is it worth the cost.

 

[Phil1320]

Hey Phil, Hey man it has been a long road this time getting my car back to solid running condition. The last 5 years in storage really did a number on her. I guess because I stored it in Texas this time and the heat really played havoc on the car. Things either dry rotted or corroded in the heat. Changed out tires, pw str/alt belts, cv boots, radiator, battery, fuel assembly(in-tank), fuel pump. Finally had to hottank my fuel tank. Since I had parked it nearly right after my 12.1 run I only had a gallon or two of C16 in the tank. All that air in the tank caused the tank to corrode and rust above the fuel line. Not to mention short out my pump, sending unit. She finally seems to be purring again. But, now to my question. I had her somewhat tuned for when I was stationed at Florida. Which was pretty close to sea level. Now, I am stationed where the local track is at 4200 feet. Maybe it has been a while since I have road coursed her, but the car was feeling like I was hitting fuel cut at WOT. At this altitude should I be running my fuel trims differently? There is a Grudge match 1/4 event this weekend. Tempted to check it out to dial in a little bit of tuning on the car. Just not sure what to expect at such elevation.

Wow...that's kind of a bummer that the car needed so much, however, glad the car is up and running.......5 years is a decent amount of time with no running at all. I had the same thing happen to my gas tank about 7 years back....I got the POR 15 Gas tank rejuvenation kit and haven't had problems since.....won't say it's normal, but for metal tanks and cars as old as ours....

....as far as the elevation you're at.....you may want to add some base timing depending on where yours is set......I would think the MAF would be able to read the thinner air up there and the computer should adjust for that.....I lived in Colorado Springs and I remember my GTI needed some adjustments when I left and came back to CT. Maybe there's someone up here that lives in the higher elevations and can chime in. Anyway, I'm glad you're back and I hope you make it out this weekend for some shakedown passes!

 

[hubz91talontsi]

So the fastest 14b car is as fast as the fastest 420a car? Not looking good for the 420a fellas.

 

[Phil1320]

So the fastest 14b car is as fast as the fastest 420a car? Not looking good for the 420a fellas.

Well, that 420A car in it's defense didn't have a strong 60'....1.76. Because of that even my car is out in front of the 35R powered 420A car til almost half track.....it's about 3 tenths quicker than me to the 1000'.....but then pulls out a full .65 by the 1/4. Like I said, I've got a strong 1/8 mile car. This car went 7.20 to the 1/8 vs. my 7.27....almost side by side with identical reaction times...

 

[D's GS-T]

I'll have a 2.3l with a 14b up and running hopefully in a month or so, but definetly before track time. Obviously im not going to use that turbo for very long, but it will be interesting to see what it will be like. I plan on making a few passes before i go off to Air Force basic training, but the ultimate goal is to build a twin scroll 2.3l 7 Blade HX35

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Air Force basic training

I was just in lackland.. You'll like it. Base is massive and tons for your family to do if they choice to come down to watch you graduate.

Well, that 420A car in it's defense didn't have a strong

I know phil--Just givin the 420a guys a hard time. I seen that he trapped something like 10mph faster than joe's 10.87 also.

Is someone going to let me run a billet compressor wheel or what..?

 

[1SloEvo]

Then it's not a 14b. It would be an "hta" or some other named 14b instead of a factory one.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Then it's not a 14b. It would be an "hta" or some other named 14b instead of a factory one.

Well, the compressor wheel would be identical. I understand its not factory. Since its a "custom" billet wheel i'll call it a billet 14b =P. Im putting the 14b on hold at the moment. I did just buy a t3 10cm^2 housing for a td05h turbo however.

Anyways i found this on curt's new cars mod list. "Lots of Titanium bolts!" He's like a long losts brother--We share to much incommon.

 

[Phil1320]

Then it's not a 14b. It would be an "hta" or some other named 14b instead of a factory one.

Pretty much.....

Well, the compressor wheel would be identical. I understand its not factory. Since its a "custom" billet wheel i'll call it a billet 14b =P. Im putting the 14b on hold at the moment. I did just buy a t3 10cm^2 housing for a td05h turbo however.

Anyways i found this on curt's new cars mod list. "Lots of Titanium bolts!" He's like a long losts brother--We share to much incommon.

Yeah you and Curt...two peas in a pod. The only difference is he makes 1/4 mile passes and you just talk and dream.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Yeah you and Curt...two peas in a pod. The only difference is he makes 1/4 mile passes and you just talk and dream.

You just assume i dream because i don't have any timeslips or dyno sheets on my profile.

While doing more research today i noticed that the evo 6 tme edition(and rs) came with a titanium alloy turbine shaft. Its over 26% as light as the inconel 600 which was ran also in the 6's. Our turbo's use inconel 713c turbine shaft. If someone could get me a weight on the shaft it would be much appreciated! The titanium shaft almost doubles or cuts the results in half by every aspect depending on the category.

 

[Phil1320]

You just assume i dream because i don't have any timeslips or dyno sheets on my profile.

While doing more research today i noticed that the evo 6 tme edition(and rs) came with a titanium alloy turbine shaft. Its over 26% as light as the inconel 600 which was ran also in the 6's. Our turbo's use inconel 713c turbine shaft. If someone could get me a weight on the shaft it would be much appreciated! The titanium shaft almost doubles or cuts the results in half by every aspect depending on the category.

I'm not assuming....it's fact. Who gives a crap about the TME ti shaft. Quit your damn research already.....get to the drag strip. I'm sure tons of people up here have the weight on the 713c shaft b/c we are always disecting our turbos. You wanna borrow my spark plug dyno? It's made for people like you......


....seriously man......this stuff you're always talking about is really not relevant at all in this thread.

If you don't come out and run some SERIOUS numbers I'm gonna laugh my ass off for days. So, you best go to a track that noone will be at just in case you run 12 seconds......WTF

....or you can man up and face me at your first visit to the track....I think you're chicken though...you talk too much.

 

[1SloEvo]

hahahah...Phil, that's hilarious!