The 16g Drag Race Discussion Thread

[TSIfreek]

I personally would go with ID 2200s on E . I have no problem running them on pump gas or E85. I'm set up with flex fuel sensor and even Street driving it's like it's on stock injectors. If u dont plan on running e85 you can get away with much smaller injectors.
I don't need 2200s but gives me room to grow and I have no worries about running them ragged. I really do like what ID is doing in the injector market personally I think their the best out there.

 

[rhamlinii]

I would not run id2200, unless you want e85. Pump gas, it's far more injecter then you'll need. Also you can't run fuels with mbte.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I'm back to running on the 16g for a bit. Non-intercooled methanol to try to keep the weight down, but it's a bit of a pain in the ass on ECMlink. It's been 6.50 in the 8th on the dragy, and I'm trying to get that to a 6.30 before I send it on a quarter mile pass. I'm not even sure where to start here. Boost is around 34 psi, shifting at 7k RPM and converter is dropping RPM to ~5500 rpm. IATs are way off the charts. Etc. I made some suspension adjustments today that seem to have helped the 60 foot (mid 1.40s). But everything else I've tried so far has slowed it down, . It seems I accidentally started with the ideal cam gear settings. I'm going to hook up the upstream injection and get that working so the tune makes more sense, and see if I can't find that last two tenths.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Upstream injection working, tried a couple different injector sizes, almost lit myself on fire, etc. This solves issues with ECMlink and non-intercooled methanol, so now the tune is making sense again. It's back in the 6.50s on no prep and showing some promise finally. I Didn't get an AQ1 log on that last pass but I bet it's finally back up around 400 hp again.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I'm watching and waiting. Some very unique and cool ideas Kevin. Always like innovative stuff.
Marty

 

[Kevin Jewer]

It is interesting seeing HP in the logs, actually measured at the driveshaft. Overlays between torque and acceleration Gs, etc. I'll go through all this at some point and share details when I've got some time. I'm so glad I finally got this dynshaft working! I was unable to "calibrate" it to my hub dyno though, I've got so much runout in the axles I don't want to wing it up to high rpm, it looks bad.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Yeah, don't tear up equipment. Your axles really "float" around that much? mm's or inches?
What rear dif do you have under that thing Kevin?

 

[Kevin Jewer]

It's a GM 12 bolt axle, of all things. In the 90s I guess they were still a common choice. Now they're too hard to find to waste on a car like this. There is about 35 thou runout, lug pattern off centerline. Doesn't make a lot of sense though, I've obviously dynoed the car on these axles before. But the last time I tried at the old shop it was the same dismal failure. I can't imagine how that would have changed though, or otherwise how it worked the first couple times.

Tonight the car went 10.21. Got a way to go still, but not a bad start.

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[lasthope05]

Nice! I've been waiting years for this to finally happen.

 

[biglady112]

Does that thing have the 10cm turbine housing? I have had great luck recently with my new fuel setup. Granted I am still on E85. I currently have four 1150cc primary injectors and four 850cc secondaries spraying before the turbo. As well as a .041” nitrous jet pre-turbo as well.

So far around 225hp I have seen 150-160* intake temps down track. This is with the sensor in a terrible spot away from “direct” airflow. If I put it right behind the throttle body I bet I would see a significant drop in readings.

I am a huge fan of the non intercooled stuff and love seeing others try it.

This is on a 1.3L Mazda engine powered by dsmlink. Holset H1C at 24psi with 14psi of turbine back pressure.looking to turn it up very soon.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Yes, it is the 10cm housing, mainly for the ability to bolt it to a T3 manifold that fits the car and supports my individual cylinder O2 sensors etc, back presure is still terrible.

I've got 8 1650s on the car but I'm only using 5 of them. I will at some point drop base fuel pressure back down to 43 psi too, IDC is only 60% and that's limiting the flow from the upstream injector.

Charge temps are not likely to be reduced to below 300F based on what that single FIC 1650 can do, but I'm reading 260 at the IAT sensor, which means some liquid methanol is hitting the IAT sensor. The port injectors could cool it further to a ~210F at best. So temps are not quite "right" for the sake of ECU operation, which is a pain in the ass. This lower limit for charge temp is directly related to absolute pressure in the charge pipe (or intake port). I've always found that you just can't cool below it with legitimate readings.

 

[biglady112]

I saw diminishing returns on my mirage with the 14b and 10cm housing on the Dyno at 19psi falling to 13psi for boost and 30-31psi of turbine backpressure. This is with a Tial 38mm Gaye off the #1 runner. That turbine housing does perform quite well I can agree with though.

After experimenting with a few cars now, whatever the drive pressure ends up at, if you can keep the back pressure nice and flat across the board it won’t go backwards on the Dyno. The more you turn it up and it increases, the worse the gains are or even sometimes the power will start to go back down.

take into account I live at 6000ft. And looking at the datalog from the other night, I would start the run at 115* and end at 180* at the top of fourth.

Upon further digging, I looked at very recent data from three very different cars and weirdly enough saw the same thing. All 4G63 cars. 10cm T3 14b car went backwards starting at 1.7:1 drive pressure. 50 trim car with a .63 T3 housing went back wards at 1.7:1 drive pressure. 6466 car with a .82 Tial Vband housing went way backwards at 1.7:1 drive ratio.

Oddly enough all the cars made good gains then ultimately stopped Making power once I went past 1.6:1 drive pressure. Is it altitude, luck, Dyno, I don’t know. All of these cars have been in the last 3-4 months. After the last sessions for each car they all went their fastest by and large tuning using backpressure data. I am really liking it if people are willing to commit now.

The 6466 car picked up 8-9mph and the 14b car picked up 6mph without any boost changes and by turning it down.

Here is what my sensor location is on my Festiva. Also how my pre-turbo injection is. Not sure if you can see the nitrous on the backside Though.

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[Kevin Jewer]

I found best results previously on the 16g at 18-19 psi boost and ~45 psi back pressure. I was regulating back pressure and letting boost be whatever it will at the time. I haven't tried that yet here, I'd have to change the gate spring, this is just on an MBC as normal so far. Looking at averages I'm about 1.65:1 right now in terms of gauge pressure or 1.45:1 in absolute pressure.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

The car seems stuck at 10.30 now. 60 foot is still 1.39-1.40, but ET is down and MPH is down to 128. M5 fuel made no difference. 700 feet lower DA, cooler temps, etc made no difference. Fully prepped track made no difference. Lol. Still have to try a radial tire and I've yet to mess with the compressor inlet or volute injection. 9.99 is a long way off.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Marginal improvement, 10.19 at 129 on a 1.37. Had some issues in high gear with the IAT sensor maxing out, which throws ECMlink for a loop. Should have been 131 or so.

 

[biglady112]

Looks like you need the other injectors. I assume the intake temperatures were over 300*. I have seen very similar results before from hotpipe td05 turbos. They just shoot fire.

even with more cooling from fuel, I don’t know where the .2 seconds will come from. Is it feasible to force fresh air to the turbo? Fender well? Headlight? Promod type hood feed?

what is the weight of the car with you?

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I don't know the weight yet. I've got a track tune next Wednesday and the customer has a set of scales, I'm gonna talk him into bring those. When I ran the 16 in 2011 it was 2375 race weight. Now it's got a lot more bars in the cage, but no IC, no idea where it is now.

The single 1650 in the charge pipe will cool the air to about 300 at best, so it's no surprise it's maxing out the IAT sensor. The port injectors are cooling the air to ~200 at best at this boost. Today I just shut the IAT sensor off again, mangled the tune, and spent another half dozen pulls dialing it in all the wrong way, and it's dead on again and goes all the way down the track.

More back pressure was a bust, the turbo is maxed.

Radial tires were a bust, no improvement there.

In the crappy air today (DA ~3000 feet) it ran a 10.26. I think now I'm just at the mercy of inlet conditions. The turbo sticks up into the air flow, the air just needs to be better. There's not much else to try otherwise. Katie is worth half a tenth if I can get her to drive it again, that could be low teens in the air we had Sunday. Still a way to go.

 

[biglady112]

Where is the ecu freaking out at temperature wise? I think mine did that tonight testing. The car back fired for No reason I can see other wise. In the log it goes from 165* to 200* instantly. That is where the rpm dipped and the car backfired in the middle of third gear and that was at only 6200rpm.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

IAT maxes out at 302F. About a second later it seems to revert to using the ECT sensor, which makes airflow shoot way up, and fuel flow along with it. I disabled the IAT sensor to get around it (again), but it takes VE in the 60% range to make it work.

On my last run it shot a lot of fire out the exhaust right at the end, no idea why. Looking at the log it seems it was right after the quarter, so it shouldn't have affected the slip. But I can't see any cause for it in either the ECMlink log or AQ1 log. Might have just been a normal misfire for once.

 

[familyMAN]

any updates on your testing kevin?

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Nothing yet. Just waiting on the weather at this point. The nest time DA gets near zero with decent weather we'll send it.

I guess looking back, I did weight it, 2335 with me in it this time, so it did lose some weight on this setup despite adding the bars for the 7.50 cert in 2012. And it did run a 10.19 the last time out. 2 tenths to go!

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I'm still farting around with this. A week ago it was running like shit (had been for a while) and broke the number 3 rod or piston. In hindsight I think I know why. After all kinds of troubleshooting BS and putting the Mighty Max's 2.3 stroker in the car it's sorted out. Coil #4 shit the bed. Kiggly had said some time ago that bad misfiring on methanol can bollix other cylinders, and I suspect that is what happened here.

At any rate, it's up and running again and I've done a couple short passes to see where it's at. Grip on the track is pretty bad. I'm not gonna prep the thing properly just for myself. But a light spray on the starting line will at least get it to do something. Today was the first pass to the 8th, it had a weak low 1.5x sixty foot and 6.70 at 107 in the 8th skating all over and short shifting it. MPH is there at least!

With the increase in displacement boost fell exactly as predicted, proportionally, to 27 psi maxed out. Back pressure remained the same, since that's where I'm controlling "boost." I will likely reduce back pressure a bit.

The upstream 1650 is doing pretty well (thanks to FIC as always for cleaning all of my injectors recently). IATs are in the 210F range, which is about as good as it's gonna get at this boost with no IC.

On that pass today it logged 460 HP and 46 lbs/min, which is good. The cold air is good for power at least. It's still a bit lean, I need to add some fuel to it before attempting a quarter mile pass for sure. Indiviual cylinder O2s look good, everything seems to be ready to go. I'm just waiting on the weather at this point. I want the cold air, but some sunshine, and a bit of track prep.

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[biglady112]

Any reason to only let it pop on the converter once then go? Any room for improvement with the four link to keep the rear end from jumping around? Seems like it wasn’t enough power to utilize the suspension(ie- more time on the converter). Granted we know the 16g is light on power as is.

It seems like it ran out of travel quickly. It doesn’t separate very well on the 10.21 pass either

 

[Kevin Jewer]

For some reason the 2 step is really violent on the 16g, to the point that it will kill the motor sometimes. That was 30 psi anyway.

Right on with not enough power to use the suspension. It's setup for three times the power, and I don't want to make major changes to it. I did move the ladder bar up a hole to hit it harder and the shocks are pretty loose. The front suspension only has a half inch of upward travel at the shock, no way around that. It's also geared for 190+ MPH, which doesn't help. Track prep will mask a lot of those issues. I didn't do anything but a hand spray on the starting line for this and it was 32 and cloudy all day, so pretty slick. Track temp was 36.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Straight "out of the shop" it ran a 10.10 and a 10.04 today. I spent some time on the track, but it was pretty hopeless. The 60 foot was a 1.39 so not terrible. It logged 474 hp on the first pass (no log on the second).

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