The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[rhamlinii]

I was also told that Pat did not drive this car to this ET. Apparently, it was Curt Brown. I don't know Curt...but I've heard things through the vine, like his 16g cars aren't "16g" cars and this is why when his name is mentioned I'm just like eh.....whatever.....big deal.

Woah, Phill how did you come up with that claim?

 

[Nate Crisman]

Probably voted for obama too

Wow, it never fails that intelligent conversation goes down the toilet when your posting on this thread. Can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE quit with the clutter and non 14b-racing or information posts. Your now up in the double digits for # of posts in this thread that are completely off topic and pretty much a waste of space.

I suggest we move the 16g related conversation about 16g records to the 16G thread and leave this thread for the small turbo:http://16g-drag-race-discussion-thread

As for the secret squirrel stuff with Curt Brown, it's not that I think all of his accomplishments deserve any scrutiny or disbelieve. It just seems that there is always more to it than him and his crew lead on. He seems to be able to pull 10% better performance out of each aspect of a car than the rest of us...he'll make 10% better power on a given turbo, run a car 10% lighter than everyone assumes, cuts off 10% more rotating weight or rolling resistance, and gets a 10% better traction setup from the same parts. He's an excellent driver/tuner/builder, that's not ever really been in dispute.

What always seems to be in dispute is when claims like "full weight street car", "nothing extraordinary", "basic setup" and such are thrown around and applied to his cars. Curt isn't some magical guy who can bend physics like the myth implies. We just rarely get all the information to have the performance correctly match up to the hype. I don't think I'v ever seen a full rundown of his mod list on a given car where he gives up the secret squirrel tricks. Iv also not seen him post real total weights either, and I suspect most of his cars over the years have been significantly lighter than the community has assumed.

Curt just seems to be able to put down the best setup every time and has the ability to tune/drive it up to potential. But when he is going half a second faster than anyone else with comparable setup, that just means he either has more power, less weight, or more traction. He's not bending physics, he's simply got tricks up his sleeve that we haven't figured out. And Iv never seen him divulge total weight, a dyno slip, and a complete mod list on any of his projects at the same time.

 

[Phil1320]

Woah, Phill how did you come up with that claim?

I didn't come up with it......I overheard it in a conversation on one of the FEW occasions that I hang out with other DSMr's.....and for the record hearsay is hearsay...however, they had to have got the info somewhere, wether it's a reliable source or not, who knows.

Wow, it never fails that intelligent conversation goes down the toilet when your posting on this thread. Can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE quit with the clutter and non 14b-racing or information posts. Your now up in the double digits for # of posts in this thread that are completely off topic and pretty much a waste of space.

I suggest we move the 16g related conversation about 16g records to the 16G thread and leave this thread for the small turbo:http://16g-drag-race-discussion-thread

As for the secret squirrel stuff with Curt Brown, it's not that I think all of his accomplishments deserve any scrutiny or disbelieve. It just seems that there is always more to it than him and his crew lead on. He seems to be able to pull 10% better performance out of each aspect of a car than the rest of us...he'll make 10% better power on a given turbo, run a car 10% lighter than everyone assumes, cuts off 10% more rotating weight or rolling resistance, and gets a 10% better traction setup from the same parts. He's an excellent driver/tuner/builder, that's not ever really been in dispute.

What always seems to be in dispute is when claims like "full weight street car", "nothing extraordinary", "basic setup" and such are thrown around and applied to his cars. Curt isn't some magical guy who can bend physics like the myth implies. We just rarely get all the information to have the performance correctly match up to the hype. I don't think I'v ever seen a full rundown of his mod list on a given car where he gives up the secret squirrel tricks. Iv also not seen him post real total weights either, and I suspect most of his cars over the years have been significantly lighter than the community has assumed.

Curt just seems to be able to put down the best setup every time and has the ability to tune/drive it up to potential. But when he is going half a second faster than anyone else with comparable setup, that just means he either has more power, less weight, or more traction. He's not bending physics, he's simply got tricks up his sleeve that we haven't figured out. And Iv never seen him divulge total weight, a dyno slip, and a complete mod list on any of his projects at the same time.

Pretty much. And I was told his "record" car was lighter than mine if that says anything....b/c I personally think I've got just about the lightest AWD around short of Extreme's old racecar.....

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Wow, it never fails that intelligent conversation goes down the toilet when your posting on this thread.

I knew you would!!

You won't ever get information about his cars. He has many one of a kind parts. The magic behind the tune is obviously nate silveri. Those two together--equals epic setups. We are talking about a guy that has more money to spend on his car's than most small shops building there cars. If he wanted to im sure he would put any turbo record out of reach.

I didn't come up with it......I overheard it in a conversation on one of the FEW occasions that I hang out with other DSMr's.....and for the record hearsay is hearsay...however, they had to have got the info somewhere, wether it's a reliable source or not, who knows.

Phil, his 3586 car and his 16g car were totally different. The car with the 16g record was the one that pat bought.. A 2800lb car with black leather..

 

[91stocker]

I didn't come up with it......I overheard it in a conversation on one of the FEW occasions that I hang out with other DSMr's.....and for the record hearsay is hearsay...however, they had to have got the info somewhere, wether it's a reliable source or not, who knows.

Well it seems like most small turbo guys are near stock bottom/top ends. I imagine if you had the budget to build a motor entirely around a 14b(very high comp/meth,etc) you could pull that 10% over everyone else. It seems like his 10% extra means 10% extra budget haha. I was told his 16g car had carbon driveshafts, not too many 16g's with cf shafts running around.

I knew you would!!

You won't ever get information about his cars. He has many one of a kind parts. The magic behind the tune is obviously nate silveri. Those two together equals epic setups. We are talking about a guy that has more money to spend on his car's than most small shops building there cars. If he wanted to im sure he would put any turbo record out of reach.

Beat me to it

 

[Phil1320]

Well it seems like most small turbo guys are near stock bottom/top ends. I imagine if you had the budget to build a motor entirely around a 14b(very high comp/meth,etc) you could pull that 10% over everyone else. It seems like his 10% extra means 10% extra budget haha. I was told his 16g car had carbon driveshafts, not too many 16g's with cf shafts running around.



Beat me to it

I think the 10% extra power is more like 80% more budget.....

......and that's why there's noise around about his set-ups I would guess....b/c it's all TOP SECRET......and hubz you are his understudy......I'd pick a better "hero" if it were me....

 

[TSimage]

Methane is a hell of a fuel too..

 

[domthebomb11208]

14b record: Joe Bucci - 1G FWD
10.841 @ 126.63 -
- 1.6 unknown 1/8 stats

14b w/N20 record: Joe Bucci - 1G FWD
10.610 @ 131.79
- 1.627 60' 6.897 @ 105.01mph

16g record: Pat Donaldson - 1G AWD Evo3 16g
10.332 @ 131.08
- 1.451 60' 6.594 @ 102.57mph

16g w/N2O record: Joe Bucci - 1G FWD Evo3 16g
9.975 @ 141.35
- 1.569 60' 6.501 @ 108.65mph

anybody know the awd 14b record with no nitrous? and some details about that car? those times are impressive btw

 

[hubz91talontsi]

......and that's why there's noise around about his set-ups I would guess....b/c it's all TOP SECRET......and hubz you are his understudy......I'd pick a better "hero" if it were me....

Well.., don't get things all twisted up phil.. Curt brown is not my hero-We just think alike. One day maybe curt will be my understudy .

anybody know the awd 14b record with no nitrous? and some details about that car? those times are impressive btw

11.49

 

[91stocker]

Methane is a hell of a fuel too..

Is there anyone with a meth set up on a turbo as small as a 14b or 16g? Would there be any benefit to such a set up?

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Is there anyone with a meth set up on a turbo as small as a 14b or 16g? Would there be any benefit to such a set up?

Yes, very little benefit. I think that he was referring to curt, but he ran pump e85 to make 499

 

[91stocker]

I think the 10% extra power is more like 80% more budget.....

Probably true, atleast 80% over my budget haha.

 

[TSimage]

anybody know the awd 14b record with no nitrous? and some details about that car? those times are impressive btw

We don't do all those sub categories. Its a vain attempt for people to make themselves feel special... Either you are the fastest or you aren't. Making subcategories for FWD/AWD and 2g/1G or 6bolt/7bolt is utterly retarded but people do it so it is what it is.

Is there anyone with a meth set up on a turbo as small as a 14b or 16g? Would there be any benefit to such a set up?

The gains would be equal to the difference from 91oct to E85 from E85 to Methane..

Yes, very little benefit. I think that he was referring to curt, but he ran pump e85 to make 499

This has never been proven. No one really knows what curt does or uses and I'm not one to go with rumors but when you are so secretive I am more inclined to believe anyone other than the originator. It definitely would explain his numbers. High compression and Methane would then justify every dyno and track record he ahs ever done and make it all make sense.

All you know is what he and his people want to tell you and naturally you know nothing about the rest so from that point an intelligent person can make the assumption to believe neither. It is what it is I suppose.

 

[1SloEvo]

I doubt I will ever break Bucci's record, but I'm currently building a 90 Laser FWD on a 14b that I'm going to push as far as I can. Not sure how that will be. In completely stock form (short of the NGK spark plugs) the car went 14.89 @ 96.5mph...all on 91 octane (not that the octane would make that much of a difference untuned and at that boost). With a mbc at 14.5psi, 150lb of weight removed and slicks, the car went 13.83 @ 96.29. The 60' on the 14.89 was like a 2.3-2.4 (you can hear it spinning) and the 60' on the 13.83 was a 2.0x or 2.1. The car had more in it on the night it ran 13.83, but as you can see the MPH was really low because the stock clutch started slipping as I went into 3rd gear!

Hopefully I'll have my car up and running in the next 2-3 months and out at the track to see how it runs. Still got a bit of weight reduction left and then putting the head, cams, belts, intake setup and intercooler all back on. I'm hoping it will do 300whp on E85 on the local Mustang Dyno (same one as pneumo is on).

 

[pneumo]

Methane is a hell of a fuel too..

There's a thought. I considered running methanol, but methane is a whole new idea!

Wiseco has 10.5 comp pistons available off the shelf for just a little more than their standard pistons. That would make more power for sure. Of course anyone using high comp pistons would need to pull timing out, but the 14b on good fuel has plenty of timing to spare, no worries about having timing too low.

I had another idea when Joe said he wanted to make a tubular cromoly rear suspension arms/beams for his FWD car. What if the trailing arms were extended so the rear wheels are positioned a couple inches farther back? That would put more weight on the front tires, lengthen the wheelbase to reduce weight transfer and reduce the need to add heavy wheelie bars. I looked at the mounting points ( I have a 90 Laser) and there's room to move the rear axle back by at least 2 inches. The rear suspension on a FWD DSM is very basic, it wouldn't be too hard to fab.

Also, what about eccentric bushings for the front control arms that moved the front wheels back? Rough measurements show it would put the front wheels back by 3/4", so the angle of the axle isn't affected much, and it transfers roughly 30 pounds more weight onto the front tires/ off the rear tires. I'm sure the 2 suspension mods would be great for the 60' time.

About Curt B, he seems to have an unlimited budget. One of the mods on his webpage is 'ceramic bearings'. What does that mean? Are they engine bearings? or are they wheel bearings and ballbearings in the trans/transfer case/ rear diff? Ceramic bearings in larger automotive size are expensive, typically around $250 each. That could be one source of his ability to produce greater results than others. see BocaBearings.com

 

[91stocker]

The gains would be equal to the difference from 91oct to E85 from E85 to Methane..

Really? You would have to run pretty high comp atleast 11/12:1 to see any benefit wouldn't you? I was under the impression that a maxed 14b with maxed timing could be done on pump.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

This has never been proven. No one really knows what curt does or uses and I'm not one to go with rumors but when you are so secretive I am more inclined to believe anyone other than the originator. It definitely would explain his numbers. High compression and Methane would then justify every dyno and track record he ahs ever done and make it all make sense.

All you know is what he and his people want to tell you and naturally you know nothing about the rest so from that point an intelligent person can make the assumption to believe neither. It is what it is I suppose.

Considering my brother works at tpg tuning and nate tuned the car... Im pretty sure i know what fuel was in the car.

Really? You would have to run pretty high comp atleast 11/12:1 to see any benefit wouldn't you? I was under the impression that a maxed 14b with maxed timing could be done on pump.

One reason to run ethonal/methonal is obviously for its cooling purposes. Do you mean maxed out at 100% efficiency? Then probably yes.. We are talking about pretty much going over the efficiency to the point of breaking the shaft. Once someone breaks the turbine shaft you have meet the full potential of the 14b compressor wheel.

'ceramic bearings'

That is one of the pieces of the puzzle. Goodluck finding some for under two grand. They no longer make it and have no intentions on producing them again. Trust me i've already tried.

 

[pneumo]

Whoa! You guys gotta stop using Methane to power your cars!

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[Nate Crisman]

One caveat of running Methanol (NOT METHANE or natural gas like you would put in your house/stove) for fuel is that you can mix in Nitro-Methane in varying dosage. That's the fuel that makes Top Fuel and Funny Car dragsters put out upwards of 8000hp (they run between 90% nitromethane/10% methanol and upwards of 100% nitromethane. Even a tiny mix, say 2.5% nitromethane in 97.5% methanol will make power increases. Power potential in nitromethane is bigger than spraying nitrous oxide in the intake. 25% nitromethane in a 16g car might be on the order of equivalence of running a 300shot of nitrous oxide spray.

It wouldn't surprise me that some of the alky fueled cars are sprinkling an ounce or so of nitromethane into the mix and coming out with absurd power.

Oen thing I don't have a clue on is mixing Ethanol alcohol with nitro-methane. Not sure if they mix, not sure if it's been done, no clue. But I do know that nitro-methane is a hell of a fuel and it's available in small quantity via RC airplane suppliers.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

This has already been discussed on evom. Turbo + methane = different sorry. I've seen people play with it and it just doesn't work the same as a n/a. I'm not sure exactly what types of problems they are running into but the amount of fuel we need is something that we aren't offered yet. Atleast something like 4000-6000cc for serious nitro-methane.

 

[91stocker]

Damn i didnt catch the fact he said methane. You huffing fumes in the pasture again tsimage

One caveat of running Methanol (NOT METHANE or natural gas like you would put in your house/stove) for fuel is that you can mix in Nitro-Methane in varying dosage. That's the fuel that makes Top Fuel and Funny Car dragsters put out upwards of 8000hp (they run between 90% nitromethane/10% methanol and upwards of 100% nitromethane. Even a tiny mix, say 2.5% nitromethane in 97.5% methanol will make power increases. Power potential in nitromethane is bigger than spraying nitrous oxide in the intake. 25% nitromethane in a 16g car might be on the order of equivalence of running a 300shot of nitrous oxide spray.

It wouldn't surprise me that some of the alky fueled cars are sprinkling an ounce or so of nitromethane into the mix and coming out with absurd power.

Oen thing I don't have a clue on is mixing Ethanol alcohol with nitro-methane. Not sure if they mix, not sure if it's been done, no clue. But I do know that nitro-methane is a hell of a fuel and it's available in small quantity via RC airplane suppliers.

That is way out of my league. E-85 is the only experimental fuel i will try to mess with. We've had some stations out here drop e85 from their pumps. Is the fad over already?

 

[Phil1320]

anybody know the awd 14b record with no nitrous? and some details about that car? those times are impressive btw

that would be me......if you want to break it into 2 categories....otherwise I stand at #2 all time.....

This info is in the thread here somewhere but in order to save you time:

Bone Stock original 80,000 mile engine
Bone Stock original 14b turbocharger with ported 6cm housing
Turbosmart MBC set at 21 psi
2G MAF
550cc injectors
Aeromotive regulator
Magnecor wires
EVO FMIC
FP Race Mani
Extreme S/S 02 housing with Tial 40 gate
6" DP off 02
Walbro 255 HP fuel pump
Eprom ECU with custom chip by PNEUMO with studderbox
15" wheels with 24.5 M/T slicks
JIC coilovers
All bushings done
Rear Toe Eliminators
DSS Aluminum driveshaft
ACT 2600 with Street disc
ACT Streetlight Flywheel

That should be about it.....


Race weight = 2470 lbs. So a decent amount of reduction.

My bests are printed below in the sig.

 

[TSimage]

Yes I said Methane as in Nitro-Methane do I need to spell such simply things out for you guys? I apologize for thinking some of you could put pieces of the puzzle together. But then again, this is Tooners. I assumed people knew wtf I was taking about considering the following messages. But then again there could be a chance that CB IS in fact running natural gas in his cars and that is the secret right? I've heard this from multiple people so I'd assume I wasn't the only person who was told this at some point. So for the newbs I am glad it was cleared up that he wouldn't be runnign natural gas in his car like your local public transportation bus..

Really? You would have to run pretty high comp at least 11/12:1 to see any benefit wouldn't you? I was under the impression that a maxed 14b with maxed timing could be done on pump.

Of course you would? But who runs less than that as is. Running less than 10:1 on E85 is a waste of money if you had your car built specifically for it and CBs cars have been rumored to run in the 13:1-15:1 range. My car personally is running a quite high compression ratio as well to take advantage of alcohol fuels. Many I have talked to up north had made mentions of The English camp running it as well at some point as with the rumors with CB, who knows whats true and what's not?

Someone working at a shop and watching someone else tune a car is no grounds for me to take their word 100% either. He has no fking clue whats going on behind the scenes. No other TPG cars are running CB type numbers or anything close so I highly doubt that Nate alone is a contributing factor to the power that car makes. CBs budget is also irrelevant because there are many others who have equal or greater budgets and even shop owners such as Mike or Dave etc etc. That matters not.

But what would in fact solve all the questions would be if the rumors were true. That alone would make a lot of sense as to the numbers he produces with these rumored "basic" upgrades.

 

[Nate Crisman]

This has already been discussed on evom. Turbo + methane = different sorry. I've seen people play with it and it just doesn't work the same as a n/a. I'm not sure exactly what types of problems they are running into but the amount of fuel we need is something that we aren't offered yet. Atleast something like 4000-6000cc for serious nitro-methane.

You do realize that top fuel nitromethane cars run a huge positive displacement blower at boost pressures and flow rates way beyond what anyone running a turbo Mitsu sees.

You better go tell the top fuel teams making 8000hp that Evom says that nitromethane is only for NA cars.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

You do realize that top fuel nitromethane cars run a huge positive displacement blower at boost pressures and flow rates way beyond what anyone running a turbo Mitsu sees.

You better go tell the top fuel teams making 8000hp that Evom says that nitromethane is only for NA cars.

Alright then.. I forgot to mention supercharged cars.. I did mention TURBO cars however.

who knows whats true and what's not?