The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[94TSiAWD]

For some reason, notification to thread response is spotty for me... Anyway, I'll try to catch up.

After being sidetracked by the aero talk, I'll try to answer a couple questions I saw get asked.

Phil, I never got a clean pull on a dyno with my laser. I tried twice with the 14b, with failure both times. At Buschur's, my car made 50hp on his dyno, and ran 11.20 the next day with no changes... The other time I tried it was when I installed my haltech. I calculated a basic fuel tune and programmed a stock timing curve. I put the car on the dyno and it blew an intercooler coupler at 5000 rpm 3 times before we quit. It made 295HP and 345TQ at best that day on a calculated tune. Anything more than that would be speculation, however, I speculate it would have made a lot more HP than that. HP calculators say 350HP to see 10.84 @ 126 at my race weight.

Which leads me to my next point. I don't think I ever kept it a big secret, but my car weighed 1980lbs. I weighed 260lbs. 2240lb race weight. No carbon fiber or fiberglass. Stock brakes, no aluminum shocks. Stock crank. Steel rods. I see at least 175lbs to be lost there.

Last thing I can think of right now is 60' time. My best ever was 1.50. I was hoping to see a 1.4X but never did. I still think 1.50 is pretty impressive in a FWD with no wheelie bar. So, don't let anyone tell you 26" x 10" slicks are too big for your 14b FWD until someone beats those numbers.

I sure wish I could build another one. I really think there is more potential! Priorities change though...

I wish some of us could work together on one! Nate, wanna move to FL?

 

[Nate Crisman]

Joe, Seriously, I'd live in FL and partner on a racecar effort in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, I just bought a house in "shitty" NJ in Dec (what a stupid move!)

What I wouldn't give for nice weather and year round racing. My yellow car is stuck behind the garage under at least 4' of snow. Can't even see the car at all as the snow from garage roof has fallen on it. Obviously, I can't do jack for work to get it ready for spring racing.

1980lb. Damn. Iv got a lot of cutting and ditching to do I guess.

 

[94TSiAWD]

Probably is shitty with 4' of snow on your race car, but you must like something about it if you bought a house there! Sounds like you need a winter home. Besides, you spend more time at Disney than in Nj anyway!

To add to the weight discussion, I mentioned above the weight I could have ditched by going with carbon/fiberglass hood, hatch and doors, lightweight brakes, aluminum coil overs, lightweit engine components....

That said, before I sold my car, I had a lot of chassis work done, including cutting the front end off at the driver motor mount and tubing the front end. That was over 50lbs lost, plus it would have received a one piece front end, that would have replaced a fiberglass front end as well as the steel fenders and heavy front bumper cover.

Another plan I had was to fab a chromoly rear axle. Probably another 50 lbs there too.

All of this being legit weight reduction, not "tin can" work.

The only cutting done on my car in the first place was the rear floor which saved almost 30lbs, and the doors, which would have been fiberglass at some point anyway.

So, get to work guys! I wanna see a FWD under 2000lbs race weight. That should be easy!

 

[bullettdsm]

So, get to work guys! I wanna see a FWD under 2000lbs race weight. That should be easy!

Jesus Joe, I don't think my RS is that light, .

Of course, I still want your skinnies

MB

 

[Phil1320]

Well, that was a long read. A few things come to mind.

-60 foot times will have a limit based on your power and weight, which limits your potential acceleration. Even with 100% perfect traction, 60 foot times can't be infinitely low. I'd be surprised if anyone could get into the 1.3s at all with a 14b or a 16g. I suspect the limit is somewhere in the 1.4s. If you're anywhere near there, or anywhere in the 1.5s, I'd focus your efforts elsewhere. Good 60 foot times for street tires are in the low 1.6s IMO. I ran 1.55-1.65 short times on street tires for many years with turbos of this size. If you're in that range and not within 2 tenths of the record, I wouldn't bother spending a small fortune to get that last tenth off the 60.

-The larger turbine housing should definitely help power, even though the compressor is small. I'd bet the terminal intake to exhaust pressure ratio still gets to at least 2:1 maxed out. I never did a back to back test with the 6 and 7cm housings for power or track times (I did see a 200 degree drop in EGTs though), but in no case is higher drive pressure a desireable thing... As long as the turbo still spools in time and enough exhaust energy can be extracted to drive the compressor to the output you need, bigger is better IMO. I have the 10cm T3 housing, and I'm setup to log drive pressure, so if someone could share drive pressure on 6cm and 7cm housings we could compare after I get around to making some runs.

-In the case with nitrous, the turbine wheel/housing is only the limiting factor if you are not using the wastegate. If boost is set to a controllable level (not maxed out and tapering boost), any additional exhaust product that the nitrous provides will be wastegated. If the WG can't pass it, you'll see it as boost creep. The only exhaust that goes through the turbine is what is needed to provide the turbine power required to make the boost you're set for. For nitrous, I'd recommend setting boost to just below what the turbo can hold and let the nitrous do the rest. Logging drive pressure will show you what the best compromise will be.

-I agree that aerodynamics are mostly a non issue in drag racing. The part of the race that matters most is the part where you are barely even moving. The drag race is won in the 60 foot, as we often say. By the time aerodynamics matter, the ET is already in the bag. Mile racing is completely different.

I have a 14b and big 16g, and that T3 housing, so I would like to put them on either the RWD or the Mighty Max (or both) this year to see what they can do. The RWD will be a max effort setup, and probably the closest thing to Joe Bucci's setup yet in this pursuit. Power loss in the drivetrain will be the only downside (though autos still ET well none the less). The Mighty Max is similar but "full weight," whatever that is (haven't had it on a scale). RWD with drag radials and a three speed automatic, and a 2.3 liter. I might skip over the 14b. I was shooting 14b turbine wheels out the exhaust 9 years ago, I'm not sure I want to go back to that. Most people won't care much what they run as far as the record goes, but it will be interesting to see what happens.

Pretty cool stuff.

However, I plan to run 1.30's to the 60', so I'll have to disagree there. My launches were NOT maximized running high 1.40's. I didn't even get the chance to get the pressures down in the slicks yet. Not to mention the car will be STUPID light the next time I come out.....and some of that is unsprung weight.......total race weight should be at 2300 lbs, only 60 lbs. shy of Bucci's FWD effort....and approx. 20 more HP at the wheels than I've ever had. I may bump launch RPM to 6500 as well. All of this should net 1.3X 60' times.......

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Looks like this thread is back on track, applicable 14b drag racing discussion.

I just ordered a brand new set of FIC 850 injectors and v3 lite will be ordered in the next week or two.

 

[Phil1320]

For some reason, notification to thread response is spotty for me... Anyway, I'll try to catch up.

After being sidetracked by the aero talk, I'll try to answer a couple questions I saw get asked.

Phil, I never got a clean pull on a dyno with my laser. I tried twice with the 14b, with failure both times. At Buschur's, my car made 50hp on his dyno, and ran 11.20 the next day with no changes... The other time I tried it was when I installed my haltech. I calculated a basic fuel tune and programmed a stock timing curve. I put the car on the dyno and it blew an intercooler coupler at 5000 rpm 3 times before we quit. It made 295HP and 345TQ at best that day on a calculated tune. Anything more than that would be speculation, however, I speculate it would have made a lot more HP than that. HP calculators say 350HP to see 10.84 @ 126 at my race weight.

Which leads me to my next point. I don't think I ever kept it a big secret, but my car weighed 1980lbs. I weighed 260lbs. 2240lb race weight. No carbon fiber or fiberglass. Stock brakes, no aluminum shocks. Stock crank. Steel rods. I see at least 175lbs to be lost there.

Last thing I can think of right now is 60' time. My best ever was 1.50. I was hoping to see a 1.4X but never did. I still think 1.50 is pretty impressive in a FWD with no wheelie bar. So, don't let anyone tell you 26" x 10" slicks are too big for your 14b FWD until someone beats those numbers.

I sure wish I could build another one. I really think there is more potential! Priorities change though...

I wish some of us could work together on one! Nate, wanna move to FL?

Thanks for clerifying Joe. So your power on the run that you did get almost mimics my exact dyno run to all four wheels. 350 sounds about right though....my guess earlier in the thread here was 340 FWHP. I knew you had run low 1.5's....so I was close. 1.50 on the nose is very impressive for sure. 1.50's in the FWD is impressive no matter how you slice it. Again, congrats on all the small turbo numbers, including your NOS runs. They will go down in the history book of DSM drag racing no matter what. I was always happy to know that I took part in the inspiration of your trek with the 14b. So, now, the tables are turned.....you have inspired me over the last couple years, as well as others up here I'm sure.

By the way....we are still considering a move to FL in the semi near future, even if it's only part time intially.

Hey, everyone with a 14b or 16g, wanna move to FL??? Nate can get out of NJ, Shane can get out of Mich., I can leave CT..........

Probably is shitty with 4' of snow on your race car, but you must like something about it if you bought a house there! Sounds like you need a winter home. Besides, you spend more time at Disney than in Nj anyway!

To add to the weight discussion, I mentioned above the weight I could have ditched by going with carbon/fiberglass hood, hatch and doors, lightweight brakes, aluminum coil overs, lightweit engine components....

That said, before I sold my car, I had a lot of chassis work done, including cutting the front end off at the driver motor mount and tubing the front end. That was over 50lbs lost, plus it would have received a one piece front end, that would have replaced a fiberglass front end as well as the steel fenders and heavy front bumper cover.

Another plan I had was to fab a chromoly rear axle. Probably another 50 lbs there too.

All of this being legit weight reduction, not "tin can" work.

The only cutting done on my car in the first place was the rear floor which saved almost 30lbs, and the doors, which would have been fiberglass at some point anyway.

So, get to work guys! I wanna see a FWD under 2000lbs race weight. That should be easy!

I don't know about gettin my car down under 2000.....maybe 2080-2100 area though!

Yeah, you probably could have been down at 1880 on your car Joe...

Jesus Joe, I don't think my RS is that light, .

Of course, I still want your skinnies

MB

More gutting and cutting!!!!!

Wonder how those skinnies would work on my car? 2.8 60's times but my coefficient of drag would be down to .22 and my trap speed would be up to 140

Looks like this thread is back on track, applicable 14b drag racing discussion.

I just ordered a brand new set of FIC 850 injectors and v3 lite will be ordered in the next week or two.

Yeah......

Awesome! That's great.......hope I can get some goodies soon too.

 

[SBstar]

I'll be in florida next week, should I bring my car down and we can start reducing weight joe?

I'd love to move down there actually, I'm not a winter person and definately would love racing year around! But I've started a pretty good career here so I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Max effort will be needed to take over those times, we've known that since post #1 of this thread. Although my personal goal might not require it, I know I'll need to take the car alot farther then it is now. As with everyone finances are a huge part of holding me back, but also the ability to drive the car on the street. I'd miss having a fun car to take out for a spin too much at this point and can't afford another fun car yet. Also I don't and can't see having a vehicle to tow with anytime soon either. Makes it tough to strip your car down to the appropriate race weight and run things like Lexan and slicks. That's not saying that I won't get there eventually though! For now I live towards the 14b record through you guys still haha!

1.3 60 ft times sound crazy but it's amazing what happens with these little turbo's. First you can build alot of boost off the line and it's at full boost well before the 60 ft. I would believe for most of us once you've "launched" the car. At one point we discussed a staging brake that would allow you to have the clutch almost disengaged which would probably allow you to make even a little more boost at the launch. I know that even those with drag radials can't maintain traction with these cars. It might not be a ton of power off the line, but it comes on so much faster then our large turbo bretheren that I think the 60 fts can get that low. Slicks are the ticket and I know if I can get suspension this year I want a set of wheels/slicks for next!

Most of you are pretty smart but the hacksaw didn't lose a whole lot of weight on my first project. Most of that little structural metal you can remove doesn't weigh much, if you need that extra 5-10 lbs I suppose, but there are alot of other ways to get that out that won't compromise any structural integrity. Obviously the door crash beams are a different story however as that metal actually has some heft to it. For those who can swing it though Hairy's glass has fiberglass doors for 680 which really isn't anywhere near the price of the carbon fiber counterparts. How you actually set them up with hardware I'm not sure as I haven't looked at them that close. Lightweight parts aren't cheap but we all know we run out of things to take out and eventually have to replace things.

 

[94TSiAWD]

Thanks Phil! Shit, I remember reading about you back on the Talon Digest. You were LEGEND before anyone really cared about "records". My Car started as just a budget car, but when I saw the potential, I looked to you and Leon for inspiration!

Speaking of budget, I believe my breakdown was...

11's for $1800 & 10's for $5500.

9's for $12,000... (including a 16g...)

Let's do it! FL 14b crew! ha!

Shane, let's get to work man! Stop messing around! Also, I know all about Hairy Glass. That was in the plans... Maybe next time.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Joe,

I just have to say it's awesome to have you active in this thread and discussion. Now I need to get out of the habit of mentioning your car with that "he's long gone" tone! hahaha I should fly you up to NJ for a week to identify weight savings on my car, which I would bet is damn near 2850+lb now that the automatic went in.

On a good note though, I changed my annual family vacation to WDW in Florida to Aug 22-31 so open up the 19-21 to race DST class at the Shootout! Im totally dedicated to making the race with a competative car, of course that means E3 16g and without nitrous. Im starting to think the 14b effort is going to have to wait until september.

Im still up in the air on what Im going to do for a head & short block. Since buying a house, my car funds are pretty much non existent, and I still need to acquire a few basic parts that are manditory:

• 15" wheels (sold my 16" with QTPs's and bought a set of 24.5x8x15 MT ET Drags)
• O2 housing (sold one setup for internal gate...need a dumptube style that I can modify to take the tial mvs gate I have sitting around)
• Gaskets and supplies to build another motor...I'm planning to have the machine shop deck the block and head to the max as well as run a thin HG to crank up the compression.
• Adj cam gears and degree tools to fix the cam timing after the above machine work.
• Eprom ECU. (Sold my GVR4, which I was borrowing the ecu to run the talon)

That's on top of needing to get a workable engine together. I "could" have the block from 2010 decked, which would be the cheapest option, but unfortunately the lowest compression option as it's a worn out 7.8:1 stock motor. But, it's most likely the route Im going to take as I frankly don't even have the cash on hand to buy the list of things above that are pretty much mandatory (can't race without wheels after all!)

Another thing I was contemplating was finding a 2g head and E3 intake manifold since I need to have another head machined and put together anyway. I can likely sell the JMF intake manifold and cover most of the machinework cost. Since I obviously don't have the cash to buy the 4port nitrous setup I wanted, the JMF intake isn't that helpful and the E3 intake might suit the automatic's rpm range better anyway.

Damn snow. I'm so motivated to work on the car, but it's just completely stuck and buried for a while.

 

[94TSiAWD]

Nate! I'm glad to be a part of it! I'm so far away from it anymore that I have to rely on word of mouth to know there is a discussion at all! So, when I hear about it, I try to add my 2 cents, if anyone wants it.

It's been quite a long time since I sold the car to a local and MUCH longer since the last time I raced it, so it is basically long gone.

I really do hope I have the opportunity to race again. I'm not sure it would be a 14b effort, but there is a good chance it would.

I can't believe the DST class exists the way it does now! I had to compete in the Quick class with a 16g! I was happy just to qualify...

I could go for a trip to NJ, just make it in the Summer!

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Pretty cool stuff.

However, I plan to run 1.30's to the 60', so I'll have to disagree there. My launches were NOT maximized running high 1.40's. I didn't even get the chance to get the pressures down in the slicks yet. Not to mention the car will be STUPID light the next time I come out.....and some of that is unsprung weight.......total race weight should be at 2300 lbs, only 60 lbs. shy of Bucci's FWD effort....and approx. 20 more HP at the wheels than I've ever had. I may bump launch RPM to 6500 as well. All of this should net 1.3X 60' times.......

I hope you get the 1.3s. The math is just the math, it's always better to see what it will do in real life. But, the math is often still a good reality check.

Lower tire pressure, raising launch rpm, etc, can help, but doesn't improve your power to weight ratio much, so unless the tires were going up in smoke I wouldn't expect much from those changes. I can vary my tire pressure across a 10 psi range and vary launch rpm over a 2000 rpm range, and my 60 foot only changes by a few hundreths (my car is repeatable enough to see small changes). Power to weight determines your maximum acceleration (60 foot) potential, traction just determines how close you get to it. It can never get you past it, because you can never go above 100% traction. Another point I'd make is that maximum traction happens somewhere around 10% tire slippage, so a little spin is normal, and even desireable. Expending effort to eliminate that 10% slippage may not provide any benefit. You're only going to gain tenths if you're blowing the tires off.

Reducing weight and adding hp will directly benefit potential 60 foot times, so that is all good stuff. But, it takes an exponential increase in power to go faster in the 60 foot. For example, at 2300 lbs, it mathematically takes ~330 whp to go 1.5, ~420 whp to go 1.4, and ~540 whp to go 1.3. Every 100 lbs in that range is worth about ~14 whp at 1.5 and ~24 whp at 1.3. I've been 1.20s in my car, which takes ~750 whp at ~2400.

My point is simply that there is a huge gap between 1.5 and 1.4 second 60 foots. It takes about 10 whp for every hundreth gained. That's tough when you're already on a pretty maxed out turbo...

This is all just for the sake of discussion to help pass the boring off season. By all means, shoot for 1.3s. There's only one way to find out what the limit is!

 

[SBstar]

Random somewhat useless information. Stock 1ga talon doors are 60lbs. Gutted are around 40 lbs. Hairy's Glass fiberglass doors weigh 8 lbs. Someone with a race only car want to throw them on and let me know how they fit haha!

I don't think Phil is talking about 1.30 60 fts. Just talking about getting into the 1.3's. I agree cutting nearly another tenth off what he has done now will be tough, but lighter and with more power, and maximizing traction it ought to be interesting to see how well it can but done. I'll personally be happy with 1.7's or better this year on street tires, but it'd be nice to see slicks on the car some time sooner rather then later.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Yes, I assume that is what he meant by 1.3x. The 1.3, 1.4, and 1.5 examples were to cover the range for the sake of illustration. To be clear, I don't think a 1.39 is possible, but time will tell. I'm willing to be wrong on that. My car has been 1.20s already and I don't think I could get 1.39 on a 14b. With an EVO 16g though, I would expect to be able to do it, since I'd be leaving at 30+ psi and there's another ~12 lbs/min available. This is all off-season speculation though, I won't know anything until I try it.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Yes, I assume that is what he meant by 1.3x. The 1.3, 1.4, and 1.5 examples were to cover the range for the sake of illustration. To be clear, I don't think a 1.39 is possible, but time will tell. I'm willing to be wrong on that. My car has been 1.20s already and I don't think I could get 1.39 on a 14b. With an EVO 16g though, I would expect to be able to do it, since I'd be leaving at 30+ psi and there's another ~12 lbs/min available. This is all off-season speculation though, I won't know anything until I try it.

Well, what I can add to this is my auto/16g car has only a few launches on it, but it doesn't seem to be traction limited.

The first time out I went 1.48 a couple times, both at between 25psi and 30psi and about 4100-4200rpm. One time I got it well over 30psi and it spun pretty hard to a 1.54 but I lifted in first gear a bit (1-2 shift is right after the 60' timer.) This was with a MBC set to "hardcore", so at spoolup the boost is pretty much out of control while on the converter. It also means that boost is over 30psi within .2 seconds from the launch.

The second time out, I only got one pass in before blowup. I had DSMlink set to control boost and the map was "ramped" between 4000rpm and 65% to 100% from 6000 up. This put me at about 21psi on the launch and it only got to 27psi before starting the typical high rpm boost falloff from 5400 up. This only netted a 1.58 and just felt weak.

IMHO, I think my auto car can realistically see about 1.38 to 1.42 once it's completely sorted out and leaving at a consistent 28-30psi / 4400rpm and the boost is pretty much instantly at full blast. I can also bring the nitrous in earlier instead of running it 2nd gear and up. Limiting factor is looking to be the Xcase breaking more than traction or power.

Rough guestimate is total weight is around 2850lb and it makes "typical" power for a E3 16g running flat out.

On another note...when I had a 14b on my GVR4, which was 2850lb + 240lb driver, even on slicks I was only able to go high 1.5's. It didn't seem to matter spin or hook, clutch slip or drop....it just wouldn't move out any harder.

I can kinda agree that with only a 14b turbo, at least how Im imaging my auto car leaving, that I will be at a total power restriction before I run out of traction with the little turbo.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I wouldn't argue with 1.38-1.42 with a 16g, that should be doable. What was Curt getting for 60's when his stock turbo EVO was running mid 10s? Looks like a 1.44 on his 10.59 pass at least. I could see an auto bettering that a bit. The only problem I see is 8 second AWD auto cars still seem to be in the 1.4s. In fact the vast majority of of the fast AWD cars are in the 1.4s. Curt and Shep have been in the 1.2s, a couple of EVOs, but almost all of them are in the 1.4s. That is probably a drivetrain limited situation though, since AWDs don't leave anywhere near full power to avoid breakage.

My car might be the best bet for getting power limited 60 foots, there's no way I'm going to break traction with these turbos. I could also run with no wastegate at all and leave with everything the turbo has, since there is no risk of drivetrain breakage.

 

[Nate Crisman]

I'll agree that there is a very grey area between what is possible for a "best" 60' and what is reasonable to consistently run over and over. For example: Lucas English's auto/FP68 car. He seems to be able to knock down mid to low 1.4's very consistently without breaking stuff. I have read his posts about doing some crazy stuff...2nd gear burnouts, ect. I think he has seen one 1.39 60' time at an 1/8mile track and Im pretty sure I'v read about him breaking the Xcase more than once and he uses the term "tried too hard". That leads me to believe he feels that's the limit of the mechical strength is in the bottom 1.4's at the current weight.

 

[91stocker]

-The larger turbine housing should definitely help power, even though the compressor is small. I'd bet the terminal intake to exhaust pressure ratio still gets to at least 2:1 maxed out. I never did a back to back test with the 6 and 7cm housings for power or track times (I did see a 200 degree drop in EGTs though),

200 degrees seems pretty substantial. Any thought on a larger 8 or even 10cm? Sorry for the repeat im sure you guys have been over this 100 times.

 

[Phil1320]

I wouldn't argue with 1.38-1.42 with a 16g, that should be doable. What was Curt getting for 60's when his stock turbo EVO was running mid 10s? Looks like a 1.44 on his 10.59 pass at least. I could see an auto bettering that a bit. The only problem I see is 8 second AWD auto cars still seem to be in the 1.4s. In fact the vast majority of of the fast AWD cars are in the 1.4s. Curt and Shep have been in the 1.2s, a couple of EVOs, but almost all of them are in the 1.4s. That is probably a drivetrain limited situation though, since AWDs don't leave anywhere near full power to avoid breakage.

My car might be the best bet for getting power limited 60 foots, there's no way I'm going to break traction with these turbos. I could also run with no wastegate at all and leave with everything the turbo has, since there is no risk of drivetrain breakage.

Well, both you and Nate, and most others actually, have alot more seat time at the track over the years, and have been around alot more combinations than I have, especially in recent years. You guys may be 100% right. What I have been able to do over the years, for obvious reasons, is to be able to tell when my car has nothing more to give at a certain mod level. My changes over the years have been so small from outing to outing that I'm almost forced into it. And, at this point, I don't feel my launch has been maximized. The way the car sat at the end of 2010....it was. I might have been able to run a 1.47X, but no quicker. And with what's left on the table, I feel strongly about the possibility that the car will run, at a minimum, quicker than my 1.480.....but still feel there is one full tenth to the 60' left in it........

 

[Nate Crisman]

Well, both you and Nate, and most others actually, have alot more seat time at the track over the years, and have been around alot more combinations than I have, especially in recent years. You guys may be 100% right. What I have been able to do over the years, for obvious reasons, is to be able to tell when my car has nothing more to give at a certain mod level. My changes over the years have been so small from outing to outing that I'm almost forced into it. And, at this point, I don't feel my launch has been maximized. The way the car sat at the end of 2010....it was. I might have been able to run a 1.47X, but no quicker. And with what's left on the table, I feel strongly about the possibility that the car will run, at a minimum, quicker than my 1.480.....but still feel there is one full tenth to the 60' left in it........

Yeah, I wouldn't argue that your car isn't capable of the same 1.38-1.40, especially if you are taking out more weight and adding some power.

 

[Phil1320]

Yeah, I wouldn't argue that your car isn't capable of the same 1.38-1.40, especially if you are taking out more weight and adding some power.

Cool....I mean I saw the numbers that were printed earlier in the thread here about the HP vs. 60' and what the potential max would be....but I'm willing to test to disprove that's all.

I'm taking ALOT more weight out.....not just 20 lbs. or so. My rear swaybar and links alone weigh more than that. Like I said earlier....looking to be at about 2300 lbs. race weight......so that's a 170 lb. drop....and I would guess I'll add 20HP or so, maybe more....20 WHP anyway. And I also stated that some of the weight is unsprung, so that will better my chances of decreasing 60' time moreso than just pulling weight from the chassis.....

 

[SBstar]

Sounds like you're really going to gut her down Phil! You're making me want to do the same, I've come up with about 120 easy lbs. to pull out (low estimates on most weights). I know there's alot of other weight I could strip but again it's tough to justify when I have to drive my car to the track and back. With that weight stripped I should be at about 2800 race weight (me in the car). I'm still impressed by a race weight of 2500lbs! I can hardly imagine getting that much more out of my car. Even my first car which was completely stripped of everything I estimated at about 2650 with me in the car. But it's impressive what you can drop by switching to lexan and fiberglass, and even lightweight wheels and slicks drop alot of weight!

 

[Nate Crisman]

Cool....I mean I saw the numbers that were printed earlier in the thread here about the HP vs. 60' and what the potential max would be....but I'm willing to test to disprove that's all.

I'm taking ALOT more weight out.....not just 20 lbs. or so. My rear swaybar and links alone weigh more than that. Like I said earlier....looking to be at about 2300 lbs. race weight......so that's a 170 lb. drop....and I would guess I'll add 20HP or so, maybe more....20 WHP anyway. And I also stated that some of the weight is unsprung, so that will better my chances of decreasing 60' time moreso than just pulling weight from the chassis.....

yup...Im actually hoping to see a significant performance increase from rotating weight. 2010 I ran 26x9.5x16" hoosier QTPS and a variety of wheels between 15 and 23lb. For 2011 I have 24.5x8x15" MT ET Drag slicks that are 3.6lb lighter per tire. Im working on obtaining a set of 15x7 Volk wheels that are 10.2lb each. I ran a couple 1.48's with stock 1g swirl wheels that were 22+lb on my shipping scale, so the volk/mt combo would be damn near 15lb lighter per wheel...~60lb of total rotating weight removed. I can imagine removing weight off the wheel/tire combo is an area that can significantly help the max potential 60'.

Another note regarding hp vs 60' with a stick car....it's not only the factor of how much hp the engine can make at your launch rpm/boost level, the inertial weight of the engine/flywheel also plays a part. Running a heavy stock flywheel also could make the launch harder as it stores more potential energy that can be put into the trans! (but you pay for it all down the track in less effective hp). Not a tradeoff worth doing unless you are absolutely out of rpm/boost to add on the line, but still something to wrap your head around.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Cool....I mean I saw the numbers that were printed earlier in the thread here about the HP vs. 60' and what the potential max would be....but I'm willing to test to disprove that's all.

I'm the same way, or I never would have tried compound turbos.

a 170 lb. drop....and I would guess I'll add 20HP or so, maybe more....20 WHP anyway.

I definitely won't argue that those improvements won't help. It certainly should, the question is just how much. To use your numbers, I get a drop of about a half a tenth, from 1.47 at 2470 (I think that was your estimated best effort on the previous setup) to 1.42 at 2300 with 20 more whp. That's better than I expected! I'm curious to see what you end up getting down to. This will be a fun experiment to see how the math adds up. I'm no math expert but these numbers should be close.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Another note regarding hp vs 60' with a stick car....it's not only the factor of how much hp the engine can make at your launch rpm/boost level, the inertial weight of the engine/flywheel also plays a part. Running a heavy stock flywheel also could make the launch harder as it stores more potential energy that can be put into the trans! (but you pay for it all down the track in less effective hp). Not a tradeoff worth doing unless you are absolutely out of rpm/boost to add on the line, but still something to wrap your head around.

That is an interesting exercise, but in my head it seems like all of that stored energy would be spent as soon as you hit the tires, and then you're on HP alone.