The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Nate Crisman]

That is an interesting exercise, but in my head it seems like all of that stored energy would be spent as soon as you hit the tires, and then you're on HP alone.

Yeah, it's not something to think about unless your able to leave at 6500-7500rpm with the boost controller maxed out and it still has enough traction/weight to bog down. Which is never really the case with even a 14b dsm.

 

[pneumo]

This is why I got into eprom editing.
Add a lightweight flywheel and it has less momentum for launching, so compensate for it by raising the stutterbox rpm and you get the momentum back. But it's still not enough on a small turbo, so add anti-lag to get full boost off the line. Then tweak the AF ratio while on the stutterbox so you don't shoot turbine wheels out of the exhaust.
Still need more?
Remove the ratcheting mechanism from the e-brake and it becomes a DIY DSM staging brake.
Then connect the e-brake warning light switch to the stutterbox in series with the clutch switch so they both activate stutterbox/nlts/antilag/ and oh-what-the-heck lets code the chip so knock is zero'd out whenever the clutchswitch/ebrake is activated too. Now the clutch can be preloaded while keeping the Stutterbox/NLTS/Antilag/Phantom knock sequence active.
What's next?
A: take it to the track and see if I'm coordinated enough to manage this monstrosity!

 

[SBstar]

^ And that's why you've put your little setups into such quick times. That' stuff is beyond me hah! Which is why I use link and go with a "decent" tune. I understand the fundamentals and can get a car to run good, hit a afr, and eliminate knock, and create some kind of timing curve. But understanding how to make a car ignore knock at certain levels, or actually create the programming to do it! Props to you sir.

But it'll be nice to see someone use a staging brake as I've been considering something like that since ol evil_eagle was talking about using his (I know they go back much further but that's the first time I seen it discussed on a dsm). I figure it ought to be good for a little more kick off the line, but with Phil netting 1.4's already with more left in it, perhaps it won't be as much of an increase as I think.

So far in my launches (street tires) there is a need to make less power in order to net 60fts as the tires are just spinning anyways. I still think with some discipline and practice I can net some 1.7's but I might need slicks sooner then I think, or at least borrow some drag radials.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

1.7s are pretty good for street tires, but it can get better, without slicks. I think I mentioned it in this thread, but street tires should be good for at least low 1.6s. I've been 1.55 on all-seasons with my 2g, and 1.59 on snow tires on the EVO, both with 16g-20g sized turbos. Low-mid 1.6s were typical/average on both cars, even in cold weather and poor track prep. Neither car had anything special for suspension. The EVO was bone stock. The 2g had GC coilovers and Tociko shocks. They were both over 3300 lbs. I played with shock settings, tire pressures, different clutches, etc, but it's more about the technique. I ran my GF's 20g talon at E-town in November and the last pass was a 1.69 on Blizzaks. It was my ~5th pass total in the car, and I haven't launched a 5 speed in years. I last ran the EVO in the fall of 08, and the 2g in 2004. Once you learn how to do it it's easy to pick it up again. And it's easier to get low 60 foots on these small turbos than on big turbos. With a big turbo it's too easy to just bog and ruin the run. I used to purposely spin all 4 off the line just to keep the turbo spooled and settle for high 1.6s/low 1.7s.

That all being said I believe in slicks and think people should run them. I have seen a pattern though where people go to slicks too soon and never get the technique down. Trying to run 1.5s on street tires will force you to work a little harder on the technique. Tons of seat time is the best mod you can do IMO.

 

[SBstar]

I'll have a full season to practice, but from what I've seen on these 14b setups once you've hit this power level it just comes on too quick and results in tire spin. Might be a technique in feathering the throttle, but that's not really a technique I want! I'll do my best to get them as low as possible though!

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Suspension is key for good 60' times. No matter what you do to a rwd IRS car it still don't produce good 60' times compared to a solid axle. This is why shep runs a solid axle rear. A awd IRS car really needs to be setup like a fwd. If you're just smoking tire on a launch obviously you need to lower your 2step or anti-lag.

 

[SBstar]

Even on my last pass launching at 4500rpms and after I'd let off the clutch it didn't spin initially, but got into wheel spin well before the 60ft. as soon as full boost came on. Now I know my suspension is a serious reason behind this, might as well be RWD as I'd say a huge portion of the weight is transferred there with how bad it squats back and lifts its nose. Suspension should help this year and I'm not saying it's not possible to hit better 60 foots, just that I won't be surprised if I'm fighting tire spin all year long. I'll keep it updated, I hope you're all right and I'm wrong!

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I'll have a full season to practice, but from what I've seen on these 14b setups once you've hit this power level it just comes on too quick and results in tire spin. Might be a technique in feathering the throttle, but that's not really a technique I want! I'll do my best to get them as low as possible though!

That's the spirit!

No feathering the throttle here, all passes are WOT from before the launch until after the traps. The small turbos come up very quickly from launch boost to set boost (or max boost if you don't use the wastegate), but if the tires hold the intial hit they won't break free down track, in my experience. There just isn't enough power for the traction available. If you spin the tires off the line, then the boost coming up will just blow them off. The trick becomes being able to tell the difference between a dead hook and slight spin. Everyone can recognize serious wheel spin, but slight spin can be harder to detect. Using video can help. Snow tires can be loud and give it away easily. When you get it right you'll know it, and then spend all of your time trying to figure out HTF you did that and how to repeat it.

The throttle should be wide open, the tires should be dead hooked or very close to it, and the clutch is the variable. Letting the clutch up too quick can break the tires free from the hit and then boost will blow them off. Letting it up too slowly can allow too much boost to build (power) before it's coupled and you'll spin 10 feet out when it is, or overheat the clutch if it's organic (it will slip down track when this happens). Somewhere in the middle is the window of opportunity where the clutch comes up just right and the engine is making just the right amount of power for the traction available, and the clutch stays nice and cool.

Some of the videos of my GF's car show some of these different situations as I was relearning how to do this.


-The first run in this video, it murders the tires off the line. In the 1.8s IIRC.
-Second run is getting closer and shows some light spin. Mid 1.7.
-The last run I tried to slip the clutch longer since it was in the low 40 degree range and traction was very poor, but it made it worse. Too much boost allowed to build. High 1.7s.

YouTube - talon102010_0001.wmv


-First run I was too slow on the clutch, it slipped through and over heated it for a 1.81.
-Second run I let it up faster and it dead hooked, no noise, 1.69.

YouTube - etown 111310.wmv


Launching is something that is hard to describe, but hopefully this helps someone.

 

[Steve93Talon]

I'll keep it updated, I hope you're all right and I'm wrong!

I was pulling consistent low 1.6x 60' times on my 14b setup, full weight AWD on stock size 205/55 16 Falken Azenis Sports. AGX/Pro-kit suspension and ACT 2600 with street disc and stock flywheel. No stutterbox, just revved up to around 5k and let er rip. The nice thing about Atco was you could really come out heavy and worst case you'd break them loose and usually pull a good 60' anyway, whereas with good track prep you'll either bog or wheel hop and start snapping stuff. I'm really curious to see what the new FWD setup is going to be like on the slicks.

 

[SBstar]

Thanks guys, makes me feel better about this year. And great info and videos! I'll get into the 1.6's yet!

 

[domthebomb11208]

is the 14b record on this page correct?

DSM 1/4 Mile Times - 14b

 

[Phil1320]

is the 14b record on this page correct?

DSM 1/4 Mile Times - 14b

That is the 3rd quickest run/car with the 14b...

This is why I got into eprom editing.
Add a lightweight flywheel and it has less momentum for launching, so compensate for it by raising the stutterbox rpm and you get the momentum back. But it's still not enough on a small turbo, so add anti-lag to get full boost off the line. Then tweak the AF ratio while on the stutterbox so you don't shoot turbine wheels out of the exhaust.
Still need more?
Remove the ratcheting mechanism from the e-brake and it becomes a DIY DSM staging brake.
Then connect the e-brake warning light switch to the stutterbox in series with the clutch switch so they both activate stutterbox/nlts/antilag/ and oh-what-the-heck lets code the chip so knock is zero'd out whenever the clutchswitch/ebrake is activated too. Now the clutch can be preloaded while keeping the Stutterbox/NLTS/Antilag/Phantom knock sequence active.
What's next?
A: take it to the track and see if I'm coordinated enough to manage this monstrosity!

Interesting stuff Dave...better you than me....

I've used my e-brake on the line since '97. Every pass.... Never thought to remove the ratcheting mechanism though....good idea!

Thanks guys, makes me feel better about this year. And great info and videos! I'll get into the 1.6's yet!

Yes you will. I ran a best of 1.700 full weight with the stock wheels and the ORIGINAL Eagle GT+4 tires that came on my talon when it was new......all suspension was stock, clutch was stock, and the car had a K & N, MBC, hollow cat, and the 3" inch ATR cat-back. I broke into the 12's with a 12.95@104 pass with the car like that. Whittled it to 12.76@106 before I added a couple more mods and started pulling weight.

1.7s are pretty good for street tires, but it can get better, without slicks. I think I mentioned it in this thread, but street tires should be good for at least low 1.6s. I've been 1.55 on all-seasons with my 2g, and 1.59 on snow tires on the EVO, both with 16g-20g sized turbos. Low-mid 1.6s were typical/average on both cars, even in cold weather and poor track prep. Neither car had anything special for suspension. The EVO was bone stock. The 2g had GC coilovers and Tociko shocks. They were both over 3300 lbs. I played with shock settings, tire pressures, different clutches, etc, but it's more about the technique. I ran my GF's 20g talon at E-town in November and the last pass was a 1.69 on Blizzaks. It was my ~5th pass total in the car, and I haven't launched a 5 speed in years. I last ran the EVO in the fall of 08, and the 2g in 2004. Once you learn how to do it it's easy to pick it up again. And it's easier to get low 60 foots on these small turbos than on big turbos. With a big turbo it's too easy to just bog and ruin the run. I used to purposely spin all 4 off the line just to keep the turbo spooled and settle for high 1.6s/low 1.7s.

That all being said I believe in slicks and think people should run them. I have seen a pattern though where people go to slicks too soon and never get the technique down. Trying to run 1.5s on street tires will force you to work a little harder on the technique. Tons of seat time is the best mod you can do IMO.

I guess there's some technique involved, but.....I don't know, it was an easy transition to slicks for me. I had never been better than 1.65 and my first launch on slicks was a 1.57........my slowest ever was a bogged 1.62 on my second ever launch on slicks. I got down to 1.52 before the studderbox went in. At my last outing, 1.50 was my "slow" 60'. So the studder definitely tightens the range of consistency...however I was generally pretty consistent with my launches. As far a technique now with the studderbox.....just a bit in how you place and release the clutch pedal......that's it.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Just out of curiosity phil what type of street tires were you running?

 

[bullettdsm]

but if the tires hold the intial hit they won't break free down track, in my experience. There just isn't enough power for the traction available.

This just reminded me of trying to help Phil out at NED (as look-out). NED's launching pad is known for being a hot shot. Stick like flypaper. He was running DR's and was spinning after the hit in second gear (and it even looked like some spin in 3rd). He was sideways off the line and I was super confused. We dropped tire pressure and it didn't help . Worked my mind for quite some time until Phil and I got to talking about the tires and found he had stored them for like 3 years in the open air, . Good times

My point being that you can break traction (especially with street tires), but a lot of it is in the condition of the tire.

Launching is something that is hard to describe, but hopefully this helps someone.

Yup, one of the hardest to describe. More-so with a new driver.

MB

 

[Phil1320]

Sounds like you're really going to gut her down Phil! You're making me want to do the same, I've come up with about 120 easy lbs. to pull out (low estimates on most weights). I know there's alot of other weight I could strip but again it's tough to justify when I have to drive my car to the track and back. With that weight stripped I should be at about 2800 race weight (me in the car). I'm still impressed by a race weight of 2500lbs! I can hardly imagine getting that much more out of my car. Even my first car which was completely stripped of everything I estimated at about 2650 with me in the car. But it's impressive what you can drop by switching to lexan and fiberglass, and even lightweight wheels and slicks drop alot of weight!

Yep, no holds barred kinda thing. I come from cars that all weighed less than 2000 lbs. As far as I'm concerned, there's limited fun in cars too much heavier than 2600 lbs. That's why my Focus was more fun to drive than my EVO's. Sure, my EVO's would destroy it in acceleration, but in the twisties, the Focus had alot of peoples numbers....and it was all down to the weight for the most part.

Anyway....my race weight goal is listed...however, there's a solid chance I will surpass that goal.....

Just out of curiosity phil what type of street tires were you running?

^^^^^^^^^^"original Eagle GT+4 tires"...205/55/16.....best 1.70

Bridgestone RE71's at one outing...225/50/16.....best 1.67

Nitto Drags....225/50/16.....best 1.65

M/T slicks....at 12-14 psi...best 1.48

That's it...

This just reminded me of trying to help Phil out at NED (as look-out). NED's launching pad is known for being a hot shot. Stick like flypaper. He was running DR's and was spinning after the hit in second gear (and it even looked like some spin in 3rd). He was sideways off the line and I was super confused. We dropped tire pressure and it didn't help . Worked my mind for quite some time until Phil and I got to talking about the tires and found he had stored them for like 3 years in the open air, . Good times

My point being that you can break traction (especially with street tires), but a lot of it is in the condition of the tire.


Yup, one of the hardest to describe. More-so with a new driver.

MB

Yep...she spun the fronts through 3rd!!!

 

[domthebomb11208]

so whats the record for the 14b without nitrous as of right now?

 

[Nate Crisman]

so whats the record for the 14b without nitrous as of right now?

14b record: Joe Bucci - 1G FWD
10.841 @ 126.63 -
- 1.6 unknown 1/8 stats

14b w/N20 record: Joe Bucci - 1G FWD
10.610 @ 131.79
- 1.627 60' 6.897 @ 105.01mph

16g record: Pat Donaldson - 1G AWD Evo3 16g
10.332 @ 131.08
- 1.451 60' 6.594 @ 102.57mph

16g w/N2O record: Joe Bucci - 1G FWD Evo3 16g
9.975 @ 141.35
- 1.569 60' 6.501 @ 108.65mph

 

[94TSiAWD]

Wow, I hate to be "that guy", but those 16g non-NOS numbers seem off, don't they?

I'd assume this has been gone over...

 

[pneumo]

I've used my e-brake on the line since '97. Every pass.... Never thought to remove the ratcheting mechanism though....good idea!

Thanks, I got the idea when I saw a nice Nissan 240sx and he modded his Ebrake with a 'drift knob'. It's a bolt on mod for those cars. I found a drift knob on eBay for $7, modded my ebrake and added a stiffer return spring that I got from the hardware store. The spring helps the ebrake snap down quickly so I don't have to let it down. When I launch I just let go of the handle at the same time as I let out the clutch. It took a little practice but it's not hard.

Wow, I hate to be "that guy", but those 16g non-NOS numbers seem off, don't they?

I'd assume this has been gone over...

I'm not sure. Two weeks ago I went 10.57 in my AWD Talon with an EVO3 16G, and it had minor issues. Car weighs around 2885 with me in it. I hope to get this setup back to the track again with a little more practice and a little more weight taken out.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Wow, I hate to be "that guy", but those 16g non-NOS numbers seem off, don't they?

I'd assume this has been gone over...

I agree, that car's 1/8 and 1/4 trap speeds see more in line with a mid to high 10 second pass, and the 6.79 doesn't seem near quick enough for a 10.2 with such low mph.

I pulled the time off the DSMtimes.org list, which doesn't show a date, timeslip pic, video, or any other verification. He lists Curt Brown, Buschur, TPG Tuning as sponsors. I don't find anything on google searches for info.

For comparison, here is the next quicked 16g car on DSMtimes.org which is 1g AWD: Pat Donaldson
10.332 131.08 6.594 102.57 1.451 FP E3 16g No Curt Brown, FP,BR, Shep Racing, TPG

For comparison, here is our own Pneumo's last E3 16g run that's in the ballpark:
10.579 129.43 6.791 99.96 1.525

Something seems strange. That guys 1/8mile seems extremely close to Pneumo's, but somehow runs a full 3 tenths faster in ET with nearly 5mph less. I could see the mph being slow for the ET if the 1/8 ET had been retarted fast due to the better 60', but it's not. Going from 6.79 to a 10.26 just doesn't add up with only 24mph gain. The 1/4mile ET just seems way to quick to match up with the 60', 1/8, and speeds.

My 16g car went 6.71 @ 106 on a 1.58 on the last pass with nitrous (and blew up so the 1/4 was 10.67 @ 105). I certainly wasn't expecting anything better than a 10.35 to 10.40 up top had it not blown the motor.

My best pass thus far without nitrous on the E3 16g turbo w/ automatic (powerglide style as I skipped 2nd gear and went directly from first to 3rd...and didn't have overdrive hooked up yet)
11.156 122.08 7.125 96.55 1.485


Joe: care to share your best E3 16g timeslip without nitrous for comparison?


If that 10.26 run is in doubt, then the record would fall back to Pat Donaldson's 10.33@131

 

[94TSiAWD]

I agree, that car's 1/8 and 1/4 trap speeds see more in line with a high 10 second pass, and the 6.79 doesn't seem near quick enough for a 10.2 with such low mph...Going from 6.79 to a 10.26 just doesn't add up with only 24mph gain.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I hate questioning people's accomplishments. I may have the most questioned accomplishments of all. It just doesn't add up to me.

I went 10.51 on a small 16g with no NOS at one point, so a 10.2 on a 16g with no NOS is certainly do-able. I don't see why someone can't hit the 9s with a non-NOS 16g to be honest.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Mystery Solved: It's a 10.62 not a 10.26. DSMtimes.org has a typo, as all of the other #'s match exactly to his thread linked below:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/382083-new-personal-best-new-quickest-16g-powered-2g.html

Timelip:http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o255/pbmfarook/slip.jpg

Correct 16g record holder: Pat Donaldson 1G AWD
10.332 @ 131.08 6.594 @ 102.57 1.451-60' FP E3 16g No Curt Brown, FP,BR, Shep Racing, TPG

 

[pneumo]

Mystery Solved: It's a 10.62 not a 10.26. DSMtimes.org has a typo, as all of the other #'s match exactly to his thread linked below:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/382083-new-personal-best-new-quickest-16g-powered-2g.html

Correct 16g record holder: Pat Donaldson 1G AWD
10.332 @ 131.08 6.594 @ 102.57 1.451-60' FP E3 16g No Curt Brown, FP,BR, Shep Racing, TPG

Nice catch! I just moved up one place on the 16g list and the AWD 16g record seems closer now.

 

[Phil1320]

I was also told that Pat did not drive this car to this ET. Apparently, it was Curt Brown. I don't know Curt...but I've heard things through the vine, like his 16g cars aren't "16g" cars and this is why when his name is mentioned I'm just like eh.....whatever.....big deal.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Justin went to the track, and confirmed that curt brown was running a 16g. The reason no one thinks its a 16g is because he doesn't give much info on his setup. I know all about the parts he has. He's always at tpg tuning. His 16g car isn't the same as his 3586 car. So, most of the expensive parts like the brakemans werent even on that car.

Edit: Curt brown didn't drive that car because he sold it and build another. His first made 454awhp and the second made 499. Im not sure if curt ran the second one however.