The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[hubz91talontsi]

If I make 60 more hp at 2900lbs how much more wheel hp will that be losing 700lbs like I said they car may only see the dyno this year. Depending on the numbers may depend on the weight. I could get some carbon doors easy. That's still full interior

 

[Steve93Talon]

It's full interior I'm not worried about weight this season. I know that it's also going to inflict my dyno numbers

Since I easily have access to a dyno(brother worked at tpg tuning before joining the military) I want to record all the progress from reducing weight.

If I make 60 more hp at 2900lbs how much more wheel hp will that be losing 700lbs like I said they car may only see the dyno this year. Depending on the numbers may depend on the weight.

Ummm... It seems like you're assuming that weight reduction will increase power on the dyno. Unless you're talking about 700 lbs of rotating weight, ya better start re-thinking your top secret strategy.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Any weight reduction will increase power to the wheels.. What you just said doesn't make any sense to me. The total weight of the car makes the drivetrain loss.. Removeing weight would reduce drivetrain loss which would indeed make more power to the wheels.

Obviously the easy way to reduce drivetrain loss is to reduce rotating mass but that isn't the only factor..

 

[Nate Crisman]

Any weight reduction will increase power to the wheels.. What you just said doesn't make any sense to me. The total weight of the car makes the drivetrain loss.. Removeing weight would reduce drivetrain loss which would indeed make more power to the wheels.

Obviously the easy way to reduce drivetrain loss is to reduce rotating mass but that isn't the only factor..

So what Im getting out of this post is that you think if you run your 14b car on the dyno and see 295whp and then you remove the doors, hatch, stereo, and seats that the next dyno run will be 325whp.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

That's not what I said at all, but it's quite obvious you don't understand friction. Put a car on the dyno and pile a ton of bricks on it and tell me if there isn't a difference in power to the wheels.

 

[pneumo]

This thread just got really funny.

 

[SBstar]

This thread just got really funny.

What you said.

Back to 14b stuff and things that make sense please.

A forward facing manifold is a neat idea, I don't think the gains from it are worth the extra weight and complexity, but it'll be neat to see. I don't think anyone has thrown that idea out before. As for aluminum rods, high compression pistons, blah blah blah, we've been through all that.

With my weight this year having been at 2910 w/me in the car my car weighed in at just about 2730 lbs. My goal is to reduce that weight by at least 100lbs. before next year, 200 if I get crazy

 

[pneumo]

I find it funny because I quantified air drag vs. HP and rolling resistance vs. weight a few years ago when I was looking for ways to improve MPG. Back then gas was $4.50 a gallon around here, and I had a 75 mile commute, so I was very motivated to improve MPG.

Thanks to the members at GasSavers.org I found that it takes roughly 55HP to maintain 110 mph in a 1G. If you remove all aero drag, you'd gain 55hp. Of course it's impossible to remove all aero drag. Luckily the members of GasSavers are pretty smart, they found a way to calculate aero drag by coasting down a hill and timing how long it takes, then crunch the numbers. So they would do some mods, coast down the hill and see the improvements. Typical aero improvements were around 10 to 12% for cars modified with a full undertray and good front and rear bumpers. I'm not talking about the gaudy Ebay bumpers, I mean actual aero bumpers. Add it up, 10% of 55HP is 5.5 hp gained from good aero mods. In the 1/4 mile the car is going faster than 100mph for a very short time, so the HP gained from aero mods only counts at the far side of the track. Since aero drag increases exponentially with speed, there is very little drag at lower speeds. At 50mph a 1G has approx 5.3hp aero drag.

My notes also show that at 50mph aero drag is 50% of total drag, or roughly 2.7HP lost to rolling resistance. It's probably more for a drag car on slicks. Remove all rolling resistance and you gain a big fat YAWN!

Let's face it, we're on the right track. Remove weigh, add as much power as you can without spending a fortune, and make sure the driveline works properly.

and lastly get some seat time at the track and god bless if you have a great time doing it.

 

[Phil1320]

If I make 60 more hp at 2900lbs how much more wheel hp will that be losing 700lbs like I said they car may only see the dyno this year. Depending on the numbers may depend on the weight. I could get some carbon doors easy. That's still full interior

WTF

Ummm... It seems like you're assuming that weight reduction will increase power on the dyno. Unless you're talking about 700 lbs of rotating weight, ya better start re-thinking your top secret strategy.

What I was thinking......

Any weight reduction will increase power to the wheels.. What you just said doesn't make any sense to me. The total weight of the car makes the drivetrain loss.. Removeing weight would reduce drivetrain loss which would indeed make more power to the wheels.

Obviously the easy way to reduce drivetrain loss is to reduce rotating mass but that isn't the only factor..

Again, WTF

I warned before....with statements like this your credibility is starting to diminish and the statement I made about taking you seriously comes to mind.

So what Im getting out of this post is that you think if you run your 14b car on the dyno and see 295whp and then you remove the doors, hatch, stereo, and seats that the next dyno run will be 325whp.

WTF

This thread just got really funny.

Absolutely. But, hey, humor hasn't been the strong point of the thread so why not?

What you said.

Back to 14b stuff and things that make sense please.

A forward facing manifold is a neat idea, I don't think the gains from it are worth the extra weight and complexity, but it'll be neat to see. I don't think anyone has thrown that idea out before. As for aluminum rods, high compression pistons, blah blah blah, we've been through all that.

With my weight this year having been at 2910 w/me in the car my car weighed in at just about 2730 lbs. My goal is to reduce that weight by at least 100lbs. before next year, 200 if I get crazy

"The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread: 14b stuff and things that make sense"


Get crazy Nate and drop 200!

I find it funny because I quantified air drag vs. HP and rolling resistance vs. weight a few years ago when I was looking for ways to improve MPG. Back then gas was $4.50 a gallon around here, and I had a 75 mile commute, so I was very motivated to improve MPG.

Thanks to the members at GasSavers.org I found that it takes roughly 55HP to maintain 110 mph in a 1G. If you remove all aero drag, you'd gain 55hp. Of course it's impossible to remove all aero drag. Luckily the members of GasSavers are pretty smart, they found a way to calculate aero drag by coasting down a hill and timing how long it takes, then crunch the numbers. So they would do some mods, coast down the hill and see the improvements. Typical aero improvements were around 10 to 12% for cars modified with a full undertray and good front and rear bumpers. I'm not talking about the gaudy Ebay bumpers, I mean actual aero bumpers. Add it up, 10% of 55HP is 5.5 hp gained from good aero mods. In the 1/4 mile the car is going faster than 100mph for a very short time, so the HP gained from aero mods only counts at the far side of the track. Since aero drag increases exponentially with speed, there is very little drag at lower speeds. At 50mph a 1G has approx 5.3hp aero drag.

My notes also show that at 50mph aero drag is 50% of total drag, or roughly 2.7HP lost to rolling resistance. It's probably more for a drag car on slicks. Remove all rolling resistance and you gain a big fat YAWN!

Let's face it, we're on the right track. Remove weigh, add as much power as you can without spending a fortune, and make sure the driveline works properly.

and lastly get some seat time at the track and god bless if you have a great time doing it.

And, if anyone ever sees me write about "lots of knowledge" in the 14b thread, this would be one of those posts.

Knowledge dropped. Case closed. Awesome stuff Dave!

 

[jjrock5]

I want to build my 3400lb 14b car so it makes 800 WHP on 91 octane so it runs 6s at the track.

Anybody have any input?

 

[Phil1320]

I want to build my 3400lb 14b car so it makes 800 WHP on 91 octane so it runs 6s at the track.

Anybody have any input?

ummm....wait right there while I tell you how that can be done.....










....still waiting?

















you're still there right?

 

[SBstar]

Well first things first you need to make 350 horsepower with your car's weight at 4500 lbs. Then once you reduce your weight to 3400 lbs. VOILA! You're making 800 hp!

In all seriousness though. Your HP to Weight ratio will get better as you reduce weight, but obviously your HP # isn't about to go up just because the car weighs less. Every lb. lost helps propel it down the 1/4 though!

 

[bullettdsm]

I warned before....with statements like this your credibility is starting to diminish and the statement I made about taking you seriously comes to mind.

Um, are you implying that there was still some credibility?

C'mon hubz, quit while you're way behind. I personally have said nothing to your Honda positioning and comments because you are doing a great thing by serving. I commend you for that.

BUT, the pass is soon to end. You talk about how you're going to do this and how you're going to that, when this happens and that happens and then we will all see. You will bend the laws of physics.

Hell you're at 2012 already!

Right now, that all sounds like "tough talker Betty Crocker " (one of my favorite experessions I'm weird like that). Its a well known strategy of the Honda ricers. "When I get this", "when my cousin tunes that", "If I had my other turbo in there, then you would be sorry". Dude you can't talk about pulling off improbable events without having some experience with said products.

And then there's the weight comments........well I guess the old adage rings true about giving them enough rope.

MB

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Well, first off I never said that reduction of what would amount to 'x' amount of power. It's a percentage..variable to drivetrain loss.I believe drivetrain loss to be frictional, viscous, and inertial. The less weight the less friction.. Friction is heat.. Heat the loss of energy. Since I can't quote anything on my phone I'll just touch a few subjects. My "honda" ricer strategy... I don't understand anything about that. I have already tired a few things with a 14b that others havent. For example a top mount setup.. I'm not a new guy on the block. I know exactly what I'm doing and what I'm talking about. I guess my brothers alumium rod car was just that ricer talk. How many actually run alumium rods questioning me? I'll let you believe whatever you wish but when the numbers come trust me.. It will be rubbed in big time.

 

[SBstar]

Help me out? What did your brothers car actually do? And what does your brothers car have to do with yours? And what about a top mount manifold is so superior to a regular manifold that you think it's going to gain something significant with a 14b? Thinking outside the box is fine, but if it's just done for the sake of doing so then what are you accomplishing? There are people here who have been doing this a long time, researching it a long time, and have tried numerous things. They've bounced every idea to produce more power and reduce more weight and achieve faster times that could be developed off each other. So forgive us if some hotshot comes in and starts claiming he's going to do it so much better and leave everyone in the dust. We respect things when they're done, not when they're talked about. Your credibility flew out the window with weight loss = gains in horsepower discussion. You can gain something back by actually accomplishing some of your goals instead of being a hotshot forum warrior. I'll be the first one applauding your accomplishments, once you've proved something.

 

[Pirrofab]

Yea but after all my holset install work. I'd hate to swap thing around. Although to put a 14b back on the car would seriously only take an hour if that. Thank god for "bolt on" style housings and some planning ahead. I Think my set up flows more air then a 14b can produce.
I do have a friend with a parked 1gb at the moment that has a borrowed 14b on it from me with a 7cm exhaust housing on it. on 16psi it ripped pretty good. Maybe after the holidays I'll convince him to get it back out on the street and lay some times down.

I just read through the past 2-3 days and saw the mention of a top mount manifold set up and a foward facing set up... I haven't put a hole lot of thought into it wether the gains would come out on top over the weight of those set ups but the idea sounds awesome. I always see 35r's built by STM sticking in the bumper so why couldn't it be done with a small turbo. I think if it works it would be awesome to pop the hood and see such a small turbo hiding in the bumper. However maybe there is a reason why I haven't seen foward facing manifolds offered with a stock mitsu exhaust flange. It may not work well for a 14b set up but maybe 16g, hta68, 18g, 20g set ups or a Holset would be sweet. Any thoughts on why STM doesn't offer there fowardfacing kit for a 1g and only a 2g? Although cost is also a big reason I'm sure. I dont think many people would spend $800+ for an exhaust manifold to gain a few hp on such a small set up thats been proven to work well with just a ported 2g exhaust manifold that cost maybe $250

That was just me rambling. I got all caught up on the cool factor... sorry

Do it..that will be sweet to have you out on the 14b

Yeah, I hear you your points. There are not many running 14b's to the extent that some of us are. Would be nice to have some more out there laying numbers down.

I'm lucky I made it out this year the one time I did. It's better that I did this year so that I didn't go out early next season and blow the turbo to pieces

Well, I can say that I'm happy in a way.....my 11.62 pass was/is the quickest pass for a 14b car in 2010....but, no personal best improvement unfortunately.

...but, there's 2 weeks left....anyone?

 

[hubz91talontsi]

First off my credibility in someone elses eyes means nothing to me. My brothers car has everything to do with mine. Every single that was learned while that car was on the dyno will be imployed in my car in one way or another. I know my brothers dyno numbers.. I'm not sure if Phil knows, but they are more than likey old numbers. I won't say what he made. None of that matters because were on my car, and this is about me. My build and his are close but two different animals. Like I said many days back everything will be proven. The more and more I post however I think secrets are simply that.

 

[SBstar]

So if your brothers car made all this hp on the dyno, why didn't we ever hear anything about a track number? I couldn't give a rats behind about a dyno number, the track is what we care about here. As was said previously I respect the fact that you're serving our country, but your knowledge of cars and how they produce power is obviously quite limited as you've demonstrated. So we're supposed to believe you have some "super secret squirrel" knowledge that's going to show everyone up who's gone before. Prove it or shut up IMHO, sitting here and saying it's going to happen 2 years from now has everyone in stitches, I honestly can say I doubt we'll ever see anything from you and you'll be a "remember that guy with all those plans". But I've said it before and I'll say it again, I hope you do come through and do something, and I'll applaud your efforts. But you've come off as a real internet tough guy, instead of coming off as wanting to be a part of this community which has built this thread and the interest in the 14b, as well as helped each other out along the way. Essentially you've shown yourself to be against all that this thread has been about thus far.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

On street tires we could careless about track numbers. My knowledge of cars and how theY make power I'm sure is greater than yours. I said dyno numbers in march/April.. I don't know what your talking about 2 years. I said I was building another motor in 2 years if that's what you're referring to. Do you think shep told everyone how to run a 7? His car hasn't been ran in years and yet no one is even close to competiting with him. Why is that?

 

[SBstar]

I'm going to discontinue this rant, apparently we will all bow to you sooner or later.

Perhaps we can continue this thread in the manner it was intended.

 

[DJ23GSX]

On street tires we could careless about track numbers.

Really??? Didn't are already blow off at the mouth saying your going to run 10's on street tires??

Um yeah you did here's your quote from earlier in this thread in case you got lost in that dream of yours and forgot.

Actually Phil I'll be making 10 second passes on street tires .

 

[hubz91talontsi]

With his car we could careless about track numbers.. Get your information straight. The goal of MY car is 10s on street tires. You're quoting me about two different cars.

 

[Nate Crisman]

With his car we could careless about track numbers.. Get your information straight. The goal of MY car is 10s on street tires. You're quoting me about two different cars.

Fictional cars as far as any of us know, since there are no pics, no time-slips, no dyno sheets, and no real information other than pipe dreams of "secret squirrel" mods that you won't even name. I'm going to come right out and rudely say it: There is no way you are going 10's on a single 14b without nitrous on street tires in a 2600+lb AWD DSM. It's not even in the realm of possibility, we might as well just end this conversation.

Methanol, Top mount manifolds, Compressor housing sticking out the bumper cover, fender outlet exhaust, and Aluminum rods aren't going to overcome a compressor wheel limitation. I don't honestly think you have a real grasp of the situation that a 14b compressor wheel puts you in. There is no way to make 500hp of airflow on a compressor wheel that can barely push 360hp of airflow by changing the exhaust orientation, lightening rotational parts, or running alternate fuels. A Reality Check is in order here.

The point of this thread is to share plans, progress, and results with other like minded 14b guys who are all working towards the same goals. It's pretty apparent that you don't have anything to contribute, are unwilling to share your ideas, nor are you interested in hearing what all of us that have been doing this for years have to say (since you state your knowledge far exceeds the combined experience of this community). Basically, your worthless to this thread and are cluttering it with BS.

Thanks for wasting our time



Back to real small turbo talk related to a Non Fictional Car

Im still batting around what to do for a shortblock for 2011, and I have quite a few options kicking around in the shop:
a set of +.020 manly 9:1 pistons w/ matching +.020 block
a set of 8.5:1 CP standard bore pistons w/ matching block
a parts car coming in with a good condition 8.5:1 2g piston/6bolt rebuild.
Have the 7.8:1 oem short-block from 2010 that is fine, but needs to be decked.
Have two sets of rods: Eagle and Manley.


That's realistically the first thing I need to get done after the house stuff settles down (moving in next week) is to build a motor. After I have the engine together, I'll bring the car into the shop to drop in the longblock and pull out all the wiring/interior for the weight loss project. Hopefully should have some pictures and progress to report about the end of January. Still hoping to have the car together for mid march when Island and Etown open up. It should go together real quick since Im not changing the setup at all, simply removing some things. Still working on trying to sell off my 16" wheel/tire combo to move into a lighter/shorter 15" set as well as picking up a 4 port nitrous set on the cheap (I keep missing good deals). It's going to stay on the E3 16 for a while until that record gets broken, but then I promise, Im moving back to the 14b!

If I can get 150lb more out of the car, wow...it might make 1.2whp more on the dyno due to rolling resistance

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Alright you win.. I don't have to bend backwards to prove anything. Nor prove anything to anyone. If you attend the shootout expect to see it.

 

[GRAVEDIGGER]

Alright you win.. I don't have to bend backwards to prove anything. Nor prove anything to anyone. If you attend the shootout expect to see it.

I hope you can make it as I will be there anxiously anticipating your arrival.