The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[pneumo]

I have both bars removed. My car has stiff springs, so it still corners good. The rear bar weighs 12 pounds with end links. The ST rear swaybar weighs 15 pounds.

 

[Phil1320]

Phil, Dave (pneumo, I think your names Dave) (sorry I'm trying to put names with handles on here as best I can), I'm just curious (not expecting you to give up info if you don't want to) are you guys still running sway bars on your cars? (connected and functioning)

I took my front one off a couple years back before I ran in 2009. That will never go back on the car, even once I start to road race it. I still have the Suspension Tech heavy as hell rear bar on there, but, it won't be there next year I'm doing as much as I can to reduce weight short of anything that starts costing thousands for the next several pounds. However, once the road racing starts, the rear bar definitely finds it's way back on the car. The way I like my cars set up, FWD or AWD, is generally a tad on the understeer side which is what they like to do anyway, but, with AWD there's no finesse, the car needs to be muscled around the track and with no front sway and a big rear sway, throttle inputs and adjustments are more apparent letting me not have to use so much steering wheel input to put the car where I want it....

I do remember years back guys talking about the larger ST rear swaybar helping the launches, preventing the squat(that looks so killer in pictures) that causes camber changes losing rear tire traction. Therefore I have one! But, if you have stiffer rear springs(not like Eibach Pro--way too soft)than you might be able to get away without it. If you have stock suspension, I think removing the rear bar will hurt launches as outside contact patch on the rear tires will be lost. Also, if you remove the rear bar, you really should have the ingalls adjustable arms so you can adjust them as far positive as they can go.......

 

[Mr Peepers]

Well, Dave has the highest 14B horepower that we know of at 324 AWHP. Possibly the only other would be Joe Bucci with his 10.84@126 pass.

Using an online HP calculator(which can be taken with a grain of salt I suppose)it showed 342.2 WHP and 428 at the engine for Joe B.'s car.

In comparison, it showed 303.2 and 379 at the engine for my car on my quickest run of [email protected]. If I use my best MPH run of [email protected] it shows 310.6 WHP and 388.3 at the engine. That's pretty close to my actual power.

Using Dave's info, it states 373.9 WHP and 467 engine. Being that his 324 AWHP was on the as I'm told "more conservative" Mustang dyno, it's possible that his number on a Jet or other dyno may have been over 350 like it shows above.

So, if there's any truth at all to the HP calc. then Joe B. MIGHT have made the most power so far on the 14b.

What hp calculator are you using? I've long been trying to figure out whp and trap speed comparisons and how they measure up. I'm curious to see how your trap and weight compared to mine at 3000 w/me and [email protected](street tires) and your dyno run. Obviously mine will be lower but I'm curious if they are both off in the same direction etc.


VERY impressive 14b numbers on a mustang dyno! I had the same strange torque curve that swelled until around 5-5.5k(boost creep) then started a steady drop and peak hp coming in at the same 5.6k. Mine was on a dynojet so may read 8-12% higher than a mustang. 312whp/320tq

 

[pneumo]

Good point about having stiffer rear springs. I got a set of cheap ebay coilover springs, kept the adjustable perches and ditched the springs, then picked up a set of springs that worked better for my needs. I experimented with a few different spring rates. I'm currently using 8" 300# springs up front, 7" 375# springs in back.

 

[Phil1320]

What hp calculator are you using? I've long been trying to figure out whp and trap speed comparisons and how they measure up. I'm curious to see how your trap and weight compared to mine at 3000 w/me and [email protected](street tires) and your dyno run. Obviously mine will be lower but I'm curious if they are both off in the same direction etc.


VERY impressive 14b numbers on a mustang dyno! I had the same strange torque curve that swelled until around 5-5.5k(boost creep) then started a steady drop and peak hp coming in at the same 5.6k. Mine was on a dynojet so may read 8-12% higher than a mustang. 312whp/320tq

For those calculations I used this one:

Horsepower Calculator

My actual HP is about 7-8 less than the calculator came up with however I thought that was pretty good. I used several of my runs with different ET's between 11.49 and 11.62 and speeds ranging from 113.85 and 116.85 and the calculator was always within 1-3 HP.

With that calculator your numbers are:

352.4 at the wheels and 440.5 engine.......

Good point about having stiffer rear springs. I got a set of cheap ebay coilover springs, kept the adjustable perches and ditched the springs, then picked up a set of springs that worked better for my needs. I experimented with a few different spring rates. I'm currently using 8" 300# springs up front, 7" 375# springs in back.

Yep, definitely need stiff rears if you want to remove the swaybar, otherwise there is nothing to prevent squat and a huge negative camber situation.

Sounds like you've got a good set up there. I don't remember what the rates are on the JIC coilovers, but, it doesn't matter anyway, as my car is so light now that the effective spring rate is way higher. It is one STIFF MF.

 

[SBstar]

Yep my softie rear suspension from 1990 isn't quite going to do it, should have that remedied before next year though!

As for weight loss I just threw in a set of Canadian belts. Saved 15lbs. over the stock power fronts!

 

[Phil1320]

Yep my softie rear suspension from 1990 isn't quite going to do it, should have that remedied before next year though!

As for weight loss I just threw in a set of Canadian belts. Saved 15lbs. over the stock power fronts!

I ran the AGX on setting 8 for a while when my car was still streetable. They work well, H & R would be a better spring than the Eibachs I had, otherwise AGX with Ground Control coilover kit would be best....otherwise, a full on coilover kit.

Nice! I remember pulling all that passive restraint stuff out.....

 

[Mr Peepers]

For those calculations I used this one:

Horsepower Calculator

My actual HP is about 7-8 less than the calculator came up with however I thought that was pretty good. I used several of my runs with different ET's between 11.49 and 11.62 and speeds ranging from 113.85 and 116.85 and the calculator was always within 1-3 HP.

With that calculator your numbers are:

352.4 at the wheels and 440.5 engine.......

near 30* weather was probably a big factor. All runs were a 115 trap and ranging from 12.0-12.2 at two different tracks. Maybe the scale(local recycling center) is a bit off? Eh, maybe just be concerned with track times instead of trying to figure out a relative number to go along with it

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Calculator says I need about 440whp at 2900lbs to run a 10.99 that's less than what I wanted to make. =D

 

[vinnybean]

....just go do it please.

 

[SBstar]

You've got enough NOSSS in that thing to blow yourself up....period!

 

[Nate Crisman]

Do I sense a competitor for the nitrous/14b record? SWEET! I could use some motivation to put the little-er turbo back on in 2011.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

If you're referring to me..? I'm going all boost.

 

[Phil1320]

I would always joke around with my dad about putting in a 4g. He would always say something like.. "then we will have 2 turds sitting in the driveway." Phil my build isn't "top secret" just secret . I do have a governtment top secret clearance though . I just don't want to release any information on my build because I don't want someone with more funding to test out my ideas before I even get a chance. So, once I get the ball rolling I'd be more than glad to take pictures, share information and calculations. Like I said my goals are 10s on street tires and full interior. For the past year all I have been doing is calculations and I'm sure it can be done.

I understand about giving ideas to people that can easier fund and facilitate them much quicker than I ever could. I get that, but, still. Even if one of your ideas were out in the open, there's only 3 or 4 of us around here that are even in the realm of the possibility of running 10's on 14b power.

I see you have receded a bit and now have your GOAL listed as "10s on street tires and full interior." That's how you should have presented it in the first place.

A few of us here have had several 11 second passes on the 14b and we have a pretty good understanding of what it took to get there, and some good ideas on what it will take to run quicker.

You see the reaction you got when you plainly stated that you WILL be running 10's on street tires - with 14b power. In case you forgot:



You should understand the reasons why, I've stated one just above.

I understand you've done whatever calculations, but, that's on paper. So, while I think it's probably fun to toy around with, it has NOTHING to do with actually executing a quick pass. Those calculations aren't going to help your launch, or your shifting, etc. I'm glad you are sure it can be done.

I've been 11.4 and I'm not sure I can hit 10's. And no offense, but I've got more than 14 years racing on the 14b. Hundreds and hundreds of passes. However, my approach has been different than others, Decent power, LOW weight. Everyone's path is a bit different but we are all in similar places. Your path is about "power, power, power." And that's cool too, but, again, it's only one piece of the puzzle. In motorsport, fastest car doesn't always win races, remember that. Especially, if you come out with huge power and can't run the numbers at the track. Dyno numbers are important for comparisons' sake, but, I go to the dyno #1 to tune, and the corresponding HP numbers are a secondary thing for me thus far. Now that' I've just about maximized my weight reduction, and don't think I have much left if anything at all in the driving department, now it's time for me to focus on making more power, BUT, I still have to execute when the time comes.

Nothing wrong with confidence at all, it's admirable, but, you're making big claims that in the immediate to not too distant future you have no means, or intentions of attempting to test.

I hope whatever the final product is.....it meets your standard and sets a new bar, really, I just can't for the life of me see how you will do it at this point.

It might not have seemed obvious in my post, but I was referring to how good the E.T. vs HP where, nice catch. Also, 300+ awhp on a 14b is (dare I say this) Curt Brown-taskic!

Nope, wasn't obvious, all you said was you were more impressed with the ET and MPH than the HP number.....

....and that last comment, seriously? Curt Brown-tastic is what you meant?

Calculator says I need about 440whp at 2900lbs to run a 10.99 that's less than what I wanted to make. =D

This is the type of post that generates this:



I mean seriously, are you paying attention to anything that's going on in small turbo world at all?

440 WHP...using a SINGLE 14b turbo? And you were planning on making more than that....I mean that's just as hell.

That's a number that the top EVO 3 16G cars on E85 run

Look, I've talked with your brother and the things he mentioned seemed legit. It seems you two might not be on the same page or something.

You've got enough NOSSS in that thing to blow yourself up....period!

.....and if not, it's twin turbo set-up and that cancels it's validity relative to anything we are doing here. Yes, still 14b POWERED, but, off the beaten path. However, it would be cool for sure, depending on it's underhood presentation, jaw-dropper though? I'm fairly certain there are a few twin turbo 14b set ups out there, however, I've seen no evidence of the power output... although I'd imagine two 14b's at 15-18 psi each could churn out 200HP per liter.......

...it's a secret

Do I sense a competitor for the nitrous/14b record? SWEET! I could use some motivation to put the little-er turbo back on in 2011.

That's right DSMPartout toughguy!

I'm running a 4 port set-up with a .46 jet in each......you wanna go?

 

[e85_4g63]

Nope, wasn't obvious, all you said was you were more impressed with the ET and MPH than the HP number.....

....and that last comment, seriously? Curt Brown-tastic is what you meant?:barf

My apologies, as I was pretty lit when I posted this. What I was meaning to say, was that the power produced with the 14b was great (comparing your accomplishment to Curt Brown has childish at best, but he does amazing things with 16g's and I was trying to imply that what you did, horsepower wise, with the 14g was also amazing). The E.T. vs MPH thing was also a really good match. Sorry for all the confusion. I feel like an for that post. I'm sure everyone was at me! .

Anyway, back on topic. I received my 14b in the mail the other day (not sure if anyone remembers me saying about winning one on eBay a couple days back). To my surprise it has a 7cm2 housing already on it. (070 cast into the side). Shaft play seems normal (little to none), would you guys say slap it on or send out to be refreshed?

 

[Phil1320]

My apologies, as I was pretty lit when I posted this. What I was meaning to say, was that the power produced with the 14b was great (comparing your accomplishment to Curt Brown has childish at best, but he does amazing things with 16g's and I was trying to imply that what you did, horsepower wise, with the 14g was also amazing). The E.T. vs MPH thing was also a really good match. Sorry for all the confusion. I feel like an for that post. I'm sure everyone was at me! .

Anyway, back on topic. I received my 14b in the mail the other day (not sure if anyone remembers me saying about winning one on eBay a couple days back). To my surprise it has a 7cm2 housing already on it. (070 cast into the side). Shaft play seems normal (little to none), would you guys say slap it on or send out to be refreshed?

That's pretty funny.....no apologies necessary! Oh I had no idea that you were speaking about me, I thought it was about Dave's 324 AWHP on the Mustang dyno? Either way, for sure, Curt Brown has been quick with everything he has, so the comparison is valid in some ways.

Nice, that's awesome! Do you have any ideas of the mileage on the turbo? What does it look like as far as condition? I mean does it appear to be taken care of or did it arrive in a heap of oil? If there is any oil dripping from it still, does it appear to be clean, or run long? I would ask myself those questions and then based on the answers, go from there. You say shaft play seems normal, that's a good start. Can you pull the compressor wheel or turbine wheel outward at all? Or is it just slight up/down play?

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Hah Phil I know exactly what you're thinking =P. Don't worry I'll prove everything. I'm telling you I'll have dyno numbers this year for sure. That's my main goal. My transmission I have now is junk. I'm guessing the car will be around 3k maybe a little less with me in it. Hold your horses phil results will be coming eventually

when I say this year I mean 2011

 

[Phil1320]

Hah Phil I know exactly what you're thinking =P. Don't worry I'll prove everything. I'm telling you I'll have dyno numbers this year for sure. That's my main goal. My transmission I have now is junk. I'm guessing the car will be around 3k maybe a little less with me in it. Hold your horses phil results will be coming eventually

when I say this year I mean 2011

Ok, fair enough....

Don't take me the wrong way...I like to joke alot... and I believe you've got something cool going, really. And leaving some mystery there is understandable and sparks curiosity. But, when you make some pretty crazy statements in a world that you haven't been particularly active in, it's hard to take you 100% seriously, that's all.

I hope you come out with something sick. I don't think everyone will want to immediately jump on your bandwagon like you think. For instance, E85, lotsa peeps jumped right on that, where I have no interest in it at all, even if it gave me 30 more AWHP. Don't care. I had interest in it in the beginning, but, the more I found out about it, the interest was lost quick. Once I found out I needed to double my injector size and all that.....yeah, ok. NOT. Now, granted, what you're apparently doing, I would imagine, won't be as easy for anyone to replicate, as swapping injectors, and going to a gas pump is. Are you absolutely sure that noone else has your same ideas? Well, if they are as secretive, noone knows. So, hopefully, you'll be able to implement them and prove the significance before anyone else does. It's always nice to be first at something as the followers don't get as much credit as the originator, but, I'm sure you'll receive credit where it's due when you make yourself public with it and it does what you expect.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Yeah, I understand exactly what your saying. maybe it was a little early to mention anything. Some things that I'm doing others have done.. For example the 1.6 head thanks Dave . I'll be running meth, and obviously that water/air setup I've been preaching about. I already have a built motor.. All that jazz. My wonderful girlfriend just bought me some kelford 272's but the stock springs are floating at 4500 . Next buy will be kiggly valvesprings. Still have a ton of fuel related items to buy to run meth. Slowly but surely things will come together

 

[Nate Crisman]

Yeah, I understand exactly what your saying. maybe it was a little early to mention anything. Some things that I'm doing others have done.. For example the 1.6 head thanks Dave . I'll be running meth, and obviously that water/air setup I've been preaching about. I already have a built motor.. All that jazz. My wonderful girlfriend just bought me some kelford 272's but the stock springs are floating at 4500 . Next buy will be kiggly valvesprings. Still have a ton of fuel related items to buy to run meth. Slowly but surely things will come together

Well, I was running meth as 38% of my main fuel this year through the main injectors (mixed with 82% E85) and from what I'v learned, Im not sure your going to want that air/water intercooler as it's going to impede being able to vaporize fuel. From all the research I'v put into methanol cars, it will make more power with 250*F ait than it will with 50*F ait because it allows you to vaporize and correctly burn a larger amount of methanol, which more than makes up for the missing air density due to temperature. I know Im ditching my air/water intercooler for a straigh pipe this season on 100% methanol.

As for how you think your going to get 440awhp out of a single 14b, I concur with Phil If your going to run nitrous or a small nitromethane percentage, I could see that. But on straight methanol, I just don't see it happening as there is simply not sufficient oxidizer present in 14B airflow plus what methanol provides in oxidizer. I don't think my 130mph mid 10 E3 16G car would put down even 440whp!

 

[danl]

440whp and 130mph traps on a 14b compressor will be hard to do. I went 122 mph on a 14b and it was hard to keep turbos together for more than 6 passes. I would like to say its as easy as "weld the waste gate shut and let her eat" but its a little more difficult than that. I don't know anything "top secret" so maybe that is my underlying issue?

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Nate, the only reason I'm running a water to air is for e85 on the street. There is one thing that everyone keeps mentioning that I never said I won't say what that is heh. I go home in 13 days and I'm getting very excited. I haven't even seen my car in almost 5 months. My brother has been doing all the work while I've been gone. Going to put a 4 point cage and my kirkey seat in probably next month.

 

[pneumo]

I thought 'Curt-Browntastic' was flattering!

 

[Nate Crisman]

Nate, the only reason I'm running a water to air is for e85 on the street. There is one thing that everyone keeps mentioning that I never said I won't say what that is heh. I go home in 13 days and I'm getting very excited. I haven't even seen my car in almost 5 months. My brother has been doing all the work while I've been gone. Going to put a 4 point cage and my kirkey seat in probably next month.

Well, whatever you have up your sleeve that you think is going to make 100whp more than everyone else who's "been there & done that", I seriously can't wait to see it. (and then do the same on my 16g car)

Im sure another tip from the 14b record gallery: stock up on cartridges! Everyone in this circle will stand behind me in that if your seriously going to try running 10's on a 14b, you most likely are going to need a few turbochargers to get you through the testing before it's tuned and setup for the glory pass. 14b's drop like flies on record cars.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

I'm running a heavy duty thrust plate. I'm not to worried about the turbo yet. This season I'm just going to be focused on the dyno numbers. I'm predicting dyno numbers around april/may. Don't hold your breathe