The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Nice setup you have there. Very clean.

I would also advise you to go with V3 Lite. Then you might be able to get away with increasing your fuel pressure and compensating for it. This should make your 450cc injectors act more like 550cc injectors. This also just so happens to work out for your setup because of the fact that you are not trying to run too much more than 25psi of boost.

The 255 fuel pump your running should not exceed 85psi in overall fuel pressure(If I recall correctly). So lets just say you bump up your your fuel pressure to 55psi and run 25psi of boost. You will stay under the limit of your fuel pump by a few psi, which means you might be able to go above 25psi of boost, but I would not advise that.

So, using the Dsmlink math. With that fuel pressure bump, you will have to remove 18% of your fuel with the global fuel setting in V3Lite. 18% is also what you have to remove with the 550cc injector upgrade.

This all works, but I would definitely upgrade your injectors as soon as you can. Just so you do not push everything for too long.

On another note, if your trying to go all out with your setup and the 1G MAS. I would try to make an adapter so that you can relocate the 1G MAS into the fender, and extend the MAS plug wires. It should help out a lot.

Good luck with everything!

Thanks for the complement and for the advice! I will definitely be getting v3lite next. That was may original plan, the external wastegate setup was just an idea that popped into my head. Also I have no plans to go all out on the 1g MAS. A GM MAS setup is on my list, just not at the top of the list yet.

Buy a set of evo 550's.

If you pick up a cheap set of 550-650s, you can recoup the money later if you need more. Incidentally, we've gone 11.0 @ 123 on a 20g with RC 550s so you can push them pretty far if you're on good gas and have enough fuel pressure.

The o2 housing is most likely your creep problem. Either get a tubular one with o2 dump or pull it and port it, focusing on the transition from the gate passage to the primary exit. You'll also ideally want to port the turbine housing to help direct flow through the flapper. The 2G o2 housing also has a different wastegate passage entry, so you'd want to get a 2G gasket and port match the turbine housing exit to match it. They made the change specifically to direct gasses around the flapper door better. Lastly, you'll want to port the wastegate hole itself, although if you crank the boost later you don't want to get too carried away with it or else you could end up losing boost up top.

Thanks both of y'all for the advice on the injectors. Buying a used set and then selling them again when I upgrade later on is a good idea and I might even be able to break even.

I don't have an air compressor that will support a grinder which is the reason I never ported it in the first place. I guess I will have to pull it off and take it to the shop for porting. It just sucks since I'm a total do-it-yourselfer. I'll call them tomorrow. I really need to get this creep under control ASAP. Then after the wedding/honeymoon I'll get link and a set of used injectors. Thanks again!

 

[Phil1320]

Everything looks great Phil! Can't wait to see what you end up doing!

With my full 3" exhaust and now FMIC, my 14b is creeping a LOT. My MBC is backed all the way out and I'm boosting 13-14 psi until about 5k RPM and then it creeps up to 20+. This is way to much boost for my 450 injectors. I am also at stock fuel pressure. My next upgrade is v3lite and then bigger injectors but that's about $800 and I won't be able to do that until early next year (hopefully tax return). I can get a recirculated external wastegate setup (tial 38mm) for about half that new and hopefully less if I find something used. Is an external wastegate a good solution for the 14b? I haven't seen many 14bs with external wastegates. Also is that a good idea or should I just stick with my plan and get dsmlink and injectors first?

While I'm here, here are some pics of my new FMIC setup:

Thanks!!!
Definitely looks killer! Really nice underhood presentation. With my engine out now I will try to tidy mine up some....

As far as your creep issue, yeah, portwork is a must. I've run a standard ported 02 and a ported 02 dump, both worked well, the dump giving way to better response than a standard 02. I run a Tial 40mm external now mounted on a stainless 02 and I would never go back to a factory dsm internal---they are very lazy and inconsistent to say the least. As I've written elsewhere, with the Tial, where I set boost, is where it stayed. So, there is definitely a reason to run an external with the 14b---at least in my application. But, I would agree with everyone else and put the money elsewhere for now. Oh, for the time being, crank your boost controller up a bit so that your setting hits 16-17 or so rather than 13-14 and that will send some of the exhaust gas into the turbine rather than forcing it to go there and help your creep issue until you get a ported housing. The lower you try to set boost, the more creep you will have.....

I hope to release my 14b build at the shootout. It will drop jaws I'm sure of that. Stupid military is taking up all my time though. I have my fingers crossed. It's going to be pretty hush hush though. You can ask questions after it runs I'll record dyno vids and runs locally with the gopro but no engine bay pics

The DSM Shootout next August? That's a long time from now.....

How bout this? If you run well, you don't have to show us, but if you don't, you have to divulge your failed set up

We've heard things like this up here before...do you really think you've got something under the hood that we haven't seen before? I mean it would be great, but, to say something like that now when it will be almost a year til you run...then follow it up with "no engine bay pics?"......it's like a Mustang driver telling me that(I love to make examples of those clowns if noone has figured it out already)he has something "different" under the hood....hey look, it's a pushrod V8...it's a Kenne Bell blower....gee that's rare. It's possible we might not have seen it on a 14b car, but on no DSM? Don't take this the wrong way, I want to see you run hard, but, the whole "top secret" thing, c'mon...

What will drop my jaws is a 10 second pass on the 14b....short of that, I think you're expecting too much.....but, I've been known to eat my words in the past....

Update on my progress: TOP SECRET UNDERHOOD SHOTS UNVEILED!!!

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Thanks!!!
Definitely looks killer! Really nice underhood presentation. With my engine out now I will try to tidy mine up some....

As far as your creep issue, yeah, portwork is a must. I've run a standard ported 02 and a ported 02 dump, both worked well, the dump giving way to better response than a standard 02. I run a Tial 40mm external now mounted on a stainless 02 and I would never go back to a factory dsm internal---they are very lazy and inconsistent to say the least. As I've written elsewhere, with the Tial, where I set boost, is where it stayed. So, there is definitely a reason to run an external with the 14b---at least in my application. But, I would agree with everyone else and put the money elsewhere for now. Oh, for the time being, crank your boost controller up a bit so that your setting hits 16-17 or so rather than 13-14 and that will send some of the exhaust gas into the turbine rather than forcing it to go there and help your creep issue until you get a ported housing. The lower you try to set boost, the more creep you will have.....

Thanks!!! I will definitely be switching to an external wastegate setup in the future but for now I need a quick (cheap) fix.

I can get a used megan racing o2 housing or a ported 2g housing for the same price (it's a good price too). Which would be better for my creep issue?

 

[SBstar]

IF the Megan has an external dump, get that one. It's probably better then the 2g one performance wise either way though.

Dang Phil! You've stripped it right back down again eh. I suppose now is the time to do it though. Clean up everything!

 

[Phil1320]

Thanks!!! I will definitely be switching to an external wastegate setup in the future but for now I need a quick (cheap) fix.

I can get a used megan racing o2 housing or a ported 2g housing for the same price (it's a good price too). Which would be better for my creep issue?

I'm not super familiar with the Megan stuff, but generally any of those S/S 02 housings will outflow a stock non-ported unit. However, if they are the same price, it would be down to what you prefer most. If they will do the same thing and the Megan piece dresses the engine bay a bit more...maybe that's the way to fly. I've run OEM pieces and they do work when properly ported.....in other words, I don't think one will work better than the other unless the stock piece was perfectely port matched to the turbine housing...even then, it's probably a negligible difference.

IF the Megan has an external dump, get that one. It's probably better then the 2g one performance wise either way though.

Dang Phil! You've stripped it right back down again eh. I suppose now is the time to do it though. Clean up everything!

Agreed, if you can handle some noise at wide open throttle, nothing will work as well as the dump with the smaller turbos--short of an external gate. I agree, if it's dump, that would be your best bet.

Yeah! This is actually, obviously, the most the car has ever been apart: engine out for the first time and then the full stripping of the engine bay--that's a first. The dash has been out several times...as you can see all the sound deadening, even way high on the firewall has been gone for years.

I'm in "no holds barred" mode right now as you can see I even removed the factory spot welded bracket that holds the factory coolant overflow tank. However, this does not mean I'm going to "swiss cheese" all the sheetmetal--not a chance in hell of that. As much as my car is "stripped" or "gutted" I want it have a clean look to it nonetheless, so no hole saw bits there. Not to mention, the integrity of the A-body would be compromised....not good for a future road racer.....or any car for that matter....

Took a shot of the head with the valve cover off...nice and clean. A testament to the original owners solid maintenance and my consistent synthetic oil changes.

As you can see, the wiring harnesses are out, all three main pieces will be totally removed from the car. All I have left in the interior is the fuel pump connector and the taillights and the interior harness is out.

Yeah, it's time to clean it up. If you look in many areas of the engine bay you can see the red paint fade to primer. Some of that is factory, like near where the flip ups used to be. In other areas, that was from me using gasoline or other chemicals to remove good ole "Rusty Jones" from the shock towers and firewall etc. I mean, they blasted this car with that crap. There's tons of it on the floor pans, gas tank, rear subframe etc. I removed all of it from the four fender wells about 10 years ago and everyone thought I was crazy.....that crap is HEAVY.......it's like 10 coats of paint. So, gonna work on gettin all that crap gone......so I've got some work ahead of me, but, I'm having alot of fun doing it. Last, even when it's in the 20's - 30's outside, I can still work comfortably in the garage if I bundle up just a little bit.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

IF the Megan has an external dump, get that one. It's probably better then the 2g one performance wise either way though.

I'm not super familiar with the Megan stuff, but generally any of those S/S 02 housings will outflow a stock non-ported unit. However, if they are the same price, it would be down to what you prefer most. If they will do the same thing and the Megan piece dresses the engine bay a bit more...maybe that's the way to fly. I've run OEM pieces and they do work when properly ported.....in other words, I don't think one will work better than the other unless the stock piece was perfectely port matched to the turbine housing...even then, it's probably a negligible difference.



Agreed, if you can handle some noise at wide open throttle, nothing will work as well as the dump with the smaller turbos--short of an external gate. I agree, if it's dump, that would be your best bet.

Thanks again! Ok cool. I do NOT want an external dump, I like to keep it as quiet as possible. I definitely don't want any flashbacks to my loud, raspy, non-turbo days.

Phil, It looks so great! I can't wait to see the final product. I'm excited about your project too!

 

[Phil1320]

Thanks again! Ok cool. I do NOT want an external dump, I like to keep it as quiet as possible. I definitely don't want any flashbacks to my loud, raspy, non-turbo days.

Phil, It looks so great! I can't wait to see the final product. I'm excited about your project too!

No sweat! Yeah, I wasn't sure if you wanted to attract that type of attention! I actually have my 02 dump on my VR4, but, I don't drive it everyday so it's not too big a deal for me.

I am actually interested in a '90-'91 NA Talon or Laser.....I'd like to know what your car was like in non-turbo form and what you did to it, if anything, when it was if you want to shoot me a PM with some info.

Thanks alot! Glad you're following! I will post constant updates here as well as my blog.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Actually Phil I'll be making 10 second passes on street tires . My brother has already made more power than you. I've been telling you what to do . Build is going to take so long because like I said.. I'm in the military which limits my time and funds. The auto idea is kinda grabing my attention also. I'll keep you updated Phil. The engine may be where I want it in time for the shootout but I don't have second gear at all. So, I still have a ton of work to do.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

No sweat! Yeah, I wasn't sure if you wanted to attract that type of attention! I actually have my 02 dump on my VR4, but, I don't drive it everyday so it's not too big a deal for me.

I am actually interested in a '90-'91 NA Talon or Laser.....I'd like to know what your car was like in non-turbo form and what you did to it, if anything, when it was if you want to shoot me a PM with some info.

Thanks alot! Glad you're following! I will post constant updates here as well as my blog.

I just ordered the used Megan Racing recirculated o2 housing. I'll let you know if it takes care of my creeping issue in a couple of weeks.

PM sent. I'm subscribed to your blog as well.

 

[Phil1320]

Actually Phil I'll be making 10 second passes on street tires . My brother has already made more power than you. I've been telling you what to do . Build is going to take so long because like I said.. I'm in the military which limits my time and funds. The auto idea is kinda grabing my attention also. I'll keep you updated Phil. The engine may be where I want it in time for the shootout but I don't have second gear at all. So, I still have a ton of work to do.

That's a lofty claim...

Your brother made more power than me? So, where is he?

And, for the record, your brother made more power than I DID......

.... with a 100% stock original engine with balance shafts intact---with some bolt-ons! I'm the ONLY one that can say that. Everyone else in the 14b game that has run 11 second 1/4's have engines with modifications...end of story there. I've made the least power of all of them for sure, but, have been able to outrun all but one of them thus far. Even if it was only by a little bit...

I've never claimed to have made crazy power on the 14b...however 295 is 20-30 hp more than the average bolt-on 14b car. As stated elsewhere in this thread, I know I'm WAY down on power>>>but, obviously, I'm WAY down on weight too. So, far, the combo has done the job. For the record, I've made 304 AWHP on another dyno but choose to quote my Dynojet number as it is more comparable and widespread.

So, NOW it's time to make the power......

.....and lose more weight.....

....wonder how that will work out?

On your military stuff--I understand that. I served our country as well. Thanks for that

Good luck with whatever it is you're trying to do with your set-up. I hope you have it ready for the shootout. And, not because I'll be there, I doubt I will.

It's just that some of the things you're saying are very pre-mature and remind me of some other individuals who chose to make similar predictions as you are, only to come up short. And, now you have transmission issues to boot.

I just ordered the used Megan Racing recirculated o2 housing. I'll let you know if it takes care of my creeping issue in a couple of weeks.

PM sent. I'm subscribed to your blog as well.

Very nice! Should look sweet too. I would think it would take care of the issues you're having. You might need a bit of portwork at the wastegate flapper outlet on the turbine housing, but, the 02 really is the restriction there.

Thanks for the pm about the NA stuff. I know it's nothing like the turbo that you've got on there now as far as the power. I've just always had an interest in the 4G63 NA stuff. The Archer Brothers made about 165 HP in their NA Talon race car back in 1991. Not huge power, but it was enough to beat the competitors' Honda CRX back then for the championship. I actually have the Borla 4 into 1 long tube header for the NA 4G63. It was developed by the Archer brothers during that race era as far as I know. So, maybe someday I'll toy with it.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Well, you guys can count me in as one of those failures of 2010 who talked alot of talk but didn't produce. hahah. I did pick up what looks to be a good condition 14b on my last parts car, so I at least have the option for 2011 to switch cartridges and make a run at 14b records.

Unfortunately, look how that turned out for lucas! Seems the auto puts a bit more stress on the turbo, since it's all full song the entire time from 1+ seconds on the converter to the trap. On the 5speed, maybe it gets a little break. hahaha Lucas got all of what...1/2 of a pass from a 14b?

Anyway, Iv been thinking about racing next year alot in the past few days and Im pretty confident. Can't wait to get started next month on rebuilding the car, been collecting parts and making plans. Sure will help to start out with a running car in March vs August like this year. I missed more than half the season by being lazy and procrastinating. Didn't help that I was distracted by running my GVR4 for the spring ...now that car is sold and gone, there will be no distractions.

 

[Steve93Talon]

Thanks for the pm about the NA stuff. I know it's nothing like the turbo that you've got on there now as far as the power. I've just always had an interest in the 4G63 NA stuff. The Archer Brothers made about 165 HP in their NA Talon race car back in 1991. Not huge power, but it was enough to beat the competitors' Honda CRX back then for the championship. I actually have the Borla 4 into 1 long tube header for the NA 4G63. It was developed by the Archer brothers during that race era as far as I know. So, maybe someday I'll toy with it.

If you're interested in NA 4Gs, you should talk to Paul at JNZ Tuning. He's been in the process of building what'll probably be the most powerful all motor 4G DSM ever built. He's running a high comp. 2.4 I believe with a 2G head, DSMlink, and a pile of supporting mods. It's a really clean '92-94 Talon and I think he's the original owner. Should be pretty impressive if he ever finishes the thing.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Phil check your pm's i'm sure you will find him in there . At the same time I'm trying to build my dad a twin turbo sbc 377 aswell. Alot of projects on my plate for the 2011 season.

 

[e85_4g63]

Does anyone know if the dyno list here (Tuners) is up to date? (14b wise). I saw max HP with a 14b was 324. Very impressive, just wondering if any has made more. Not that it's a huge deal, as I'm more impressed by the E.T. and trap speeds, but I'm just curious how much power that little thing has laid down.

 

[Phil1320]

Well, you guys can count me in as one of those failures of 2010 who talked alot of talk but didn't produce. hahah. I did pick up what looks to be a good condition 14b on my last parts car, so I at least have the option for 2011 to switch cartridges and make a run at 14b records.

Unfortunately, look how that turned out for lucas! Seems the auto puts a bit more stress on the turbo, since it's all full song the entire time from 1+ seconds on the converter to the trap. On the 5speed, maybe it gets a little break. hahaha Lucas got all of what...1/2 of a pass from a 14b?

Anyway, Iv been thinking about racing next year alot in the past few days and Im pretty confident. Can't wait to get started next month on rebuilding the car, been collecting parts and making plans. Sure will help to start out with a running car in March vs August like this year. I missed more than half the season by being lazy and procrastinating. Didn't help that I was distracted by running my GVR4 for the spring ...now that car is sold and gone, there will be no distractions.

I think quite the opposite Nate. For one, you didn't come out and make a statement that said, I'm gonna run 10's on the 14b this year, the car just feels like it's that fast, or plain and simple, I know I'm gonna run this and that.

I think you of all made a great showing in the 16g world along with a few others that hit personal bests on the 14b and hit their goals. You can't say you didn't try with the 14b. I can't either, I got one shot at it!

Nice that you got another 14b to toss on when ready!

Actually Lucas ran an 11.7 pass on the 14b before it blew, I asked for some more details from the run, but he couldn't find the slip.....would have been nice to see how his 1/8 mile compared to mine.

Go figure though...we all blew our 14b's......

It will be nice to see you give it a go next year for sure. I can say I'll give it another shot, but, another 14b failure would be a bummer. I can't say when I'll be ready, but, I'll be out with some point.

If you're interested in NA 4Gs, you should talk to Paul at JNZ Tuning. He's been in the process of building what'll probably be the most powerful all motor 4G DSM ever built. He's running a high comp. 2.4 I believe with a 2G head, DSMlink, and a pile of supporting mods. It's a really clean '92-94 Talon and I think he's the original owner. Should be pretty impressive if he ever finishes the thing.

No kidding, wow, sounds awesome! Will do, and thanks for the tip! I'm sure it will be a killer car for sure

Phil check your pm's i'm sure you will find him in there . At the same time I'm trying to build my dad a twin turbo sbc 377 aswell. Alot of projects on my plate for the 2011 season.

Ah.....yes, your user names are so close I thought that was you. Ok, now I see the correlation. However, I haven't talked with him since June.

As Nate stated above, and I've experienced several times over the last decade, other projects get in the way.

So, I'd say F that sbc 377 whatever that is and get your DSM done FIRST.

Remember, you said you're gonna run 10's on street tires on the 14b. Since that time you've introduced 5 reasons why you won't be able to do that:

1. military
2. money
3. time
4. funds
5. dad's project

....which leads me to say to you, why say anything at this point at all about what you're gonna do, how about a report on what you're DOING. Oh, that's right=TOP SECRET

And last, with all your brother is doing, he better have made more power than me, if he wasn't I'd be . So, for you to say he's made more power than me, knowing what he's got done, and knowing what I've got, didn't really have much validity.

Food for thought:

1. You better hope you're(you and your brother or do we only have one car here?) making more power than me when I'm done with my engine.

2. Hope you can drive well

3. Bring it, don't sing it

And last...


"Actually Phil I'll be making 10 second passes on street tires "

You said it.......now DO it

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Well Phil I know what you mean about the 377, but my parents recently got devorced after 20+ years together. My brother and myself are both in the military now and all my father has left is his car anymore which my mom is trying to take. It's his first car which he bought in 82. It's a 73 chevy vega gt which currently has a 350 sbc in it. I'd post pictures up if I could but I've been useing my phone since my laptop is broken.

My brother and myself have different cars. All the research that we gathered from his car is going into mine plus some new . My plan is just power power power.

 

[Steve93Talon]

No kidding, wow, sounds awesome! Will do, and thanks for the tip! I'm sure it will be a killer car for sure

Here's his build thread on Talk.

PC Talon's Project - DSM Forums: Mitsubishi Eclipse, Plymouth Laser, and Eagle Talon Forum: DSMtalk.com

 

[pneumo]

Does anyone know if the dyno list here (Tuners) is up to date? (14b wise). I saw max HP with a 14b was 324. Very impressive, just wondering if any has made more. Not that it's a huge deal, as I'm more impressed by the E.T. and trap speeds, but I'm just curious how much power that little thing has laid down.

Fortunately I was able to get on the dyno right after I ran the time in my sig, so the HP matches the ET and trap speed closely. Thanks for noticing!

 

[Phil1320]

Does anyone know if the dyno list here (Tuners) is up to date? (14b wise). I saw max HP with a 14b was 324. Very impressive, just wondering if any has made more. Not that it's a huge deal, as I'm more impressed by the E.T. and trap speeds, but I'm just curious how much power that little thing has laid down.

Well, Dave has the highest 14B horepower that we know of at 324 AWHP. Possibly the only other would be Joe Bucci with his 10.84@126 pass.

Using an online HP calculator(which can be taken with a grain of salt I suppose)it showed 342.2 WHP and 428 at the engine for Joe B.'s car.

In comparison, it showed 303.2 and 379 at the engine for my car on my quickest run of [email protected]. If I use my best MPH run of [email protected] it shows 310.6 WHP and 388.3 at the engine. That's pretty close to my actual power.

Using Dave's info, it states 373.9 WHP and 467 engine. Being that his 324 AWHP was on the as I'm told "more conservative" Mustang dyno, it's possible that his number on a Jet or other dyno may have been over 350 like it shows above.

So, if there's any truth at all to the HP calc. then Joe B. MIGHT have made the most power so far on the 14b.

Well Phil I know what you mean about the 377, but my parents recently got devorced after 20+ years together. My brother and myself are both in the military now and all my father has left is his car anymore which my mom is trying to take. It's his first car which he bought in 82. It's a 73 chevy vega gt which currently has a 350 sbc in it. I'd post pictures up if I could but I've been useing my phone since my laptop is broken.

My brother and myself have different cars. All the research that we gathered from his car is going into mine plus some new . My plan is just power power power.

Wow, that's a bummer man, sorry to hear. Ironically, I love the Vega, go figure, one of the lightest little Chevy's out there.....Monza and Chevette I like too....yep, I said Chevette! Well, props to you on that for putting him first, now I can tell you are military

Ok...and I'm with you on the power, power, power thing, but remember it's only one piece of the puzzle......

.....and if you wanna kill two birds with one stone, put the TOP SECRET 14b 4G in the Vega and call it a day.....

 

[hubz91talontsi]

I would always joke around with my dad about putting in a 4g. He would always say something like.. "then we will have 2 turds sitting in the driveway." Phil my build isn't "top secret" just secret . I do have a governtment top secret clearance though . I just don't want to release any information on my build because I don't want someone with more funding to test out my ideas before I even get a chance. So, once I get the ball rolling I'd be more than glad to take pictures, share information and calculations. Like I said my goals are 10s on street tires and full interior. For the past year all I have been doing is calculations and I'm sure it can be done.

 

[e85_4g63]

Fortunately I was able to get on the dyno right after I ran the time in my sig, so the HP matches the ET and trap speed closely. Thanks for noticing!

It might not have seemed obvious in my post, but I was referring to how good the E.T. vs HP where, nice catch. Also, 300+ awhp on a 14b is (dare I say this) Curt Brown-taskic!

 

[pneumo]

Like I said my goals are 10s on street tires and full interior. For the past year all I have been doing is calculations and I'm sure it can be done.

I wish you the best of luck with your project. I'm curious to see what new ideas you come up with and how well they work. It reminds me of an old engineers quip; 'In theory, reality and theory are the same. In reality they're not.'

 

[e85_4g63]

Phil, Dave (pneumo, I think your names Dave) (sorry I'm trying to put names with handles on here as best I can), I'm just curious (not expecting you to give up info if you don't want to) are you guys still running sway bars on your cars? (connected and functioning)

 

[Nate Crisman]

Phil, Dave (pneumo, I think your names Dave) (sorry I'm trying to put names with handles on here as best I can), I'm just curious (not expecting you to give up info if you don't want to) are you guys still running sway bars on your cars? (connected and functioning)

swaybars = dead weight on a dragstrip DSM since the rear diff is solidly mounted to the subframe and thus unibody. Mine have been gone since 2002.

 

[SBstar]

The front one is definately removal, I've heard differing opinions on the rear one. Personally I won't remove my rear one until I put a decent suspension on the car, I need anything to stiffen the rear that I can get!

EDIT: Oh yeah for the record the front bar weighs aprox. 7lbs. on a 1ga! Pretty decent weight savings between the two bars. Never did weigh the rear but now you've got me prompted to!