The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Phil1320]

I've silently been reading this thread. I have ran FP T28, T25, HX35, and now a FP Green.

I have a 14b in my basement, maybe someday at some point it'd be interesting to build up one of these and have some fun with the lil snail.

Keep up the 14b update guys.

Cool, how quick were you able to run on the T25? I remember when 13.5 was a really good pass and I think some went 12.8's or so?

Definitely give the 14b a try

Wish there was more to post then my slow times, where are all these guys at who posted up these grand setups!

I expected SBR to be knocking on the 11's with their setup by this time, must have gotten busy with other ventures.

I hit the track again two days after my first runs, it was an Import showdown day and I figured why not enter and have some fun, learn a little bit about competitive racing and get some practice on a pro tree. I tossed some 110 in the tank (they don't have C16 at that drag strip) and took a guess on the boost controller. Ended up at 18psi for the day. The first pass was the "best", a 13.2 @ 104, 2nd gear would not go in at all. Felt like the shifter was hitting a wall before 2nd would engage. I figured I just missed so I tried another qualifying round, again this time 2nd did the same thing, finally clicking in with a little grinding on the 3rd or 4th attempt. Same thing all day, made 4 passes in all before I was eliminated, placed 3rd out of the 6 people in the class I ran, overall it was a pretty sad turnout for the event. 13.2, 13.5, 13.9, and 13.5 again...none of them with 2nd gear.

Got the car home and figured out my shifter cables gave up the ghost, I had excessive play in one of the ends, looked like something gave up. I ordered a new set and just got them installed yesterday, shifts smoother now then it ever did. Also picked up a new set of spark plugs to replace my 2 year old bpr6es finally. Unfortunately another shot at 12's will have to wait a couple weeks as we have a vacation all next week followed by another trip for a wedding in Pennsylvania.

Hey, your times aren't slow, and it's about your journey.....this is the 14B thread, not the 14b records only thread. You are one of a very few(Travis & Nate) that have been active with the 14b this year. I like reading about your quest. It's cool that it all doesn't come at once, and that you have to work at it and think about your next move, as well as locate problems and make repairs along the way. It's what makes it cool when you finally meet your goals. You have come close to dropping into the 12's----with some mechanical issues and very little drive time. Your results this year should match Trav's for sure, and that's pretty damn good. Any better and that's just great!

Thanks for the update, glad you figured out that it was the cables and that you have new ones installed already. I'll look forward to hearing of your next outing, and Good luck seeing the better side of 13.0

 

[Steve93Talon]

I started a build thread here:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/blogs/steve93talon/1567-fwd-14b-project-christine-pt-2.html

 

[Phil1320]

I started a build thread here:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/blogs/steve93talon/1567-fwd-14b-project-christine-pt-2.html

Looks like a cool project, good luck

 

[supravw]

I've been reading this thread all the way through the past couple days and I'm liking it! It's pretty badass you can get into the 11s with a 14b. I recently had to part out my big turbo setup and will be running a 14b now. I'd like to see what I can do with it seeing as I'm in a awd mirage it should be decent.

I want to see how quick I can get it on stock injectors + management. First step is going to be picking up a 2g exhaust manifold and O2 housing and port the crap out of them. I've got 2 14bs apart that I'm going to rebuild and port the housings and smooth the compressor covers. I've still got a huge fmic setup with short routing so I'll use that. I'd really like to see 18psi out of the 14b with a hacked 1g mas and higher fuel pressure. If that's doable then I am going to look into a water/meth injection setup to put the boost up to 21-22psi if the 1g mas can handle it. I'd like to avoid using a safc/2g mas/550s sense this is a budget setup.

 

[SICKBIRD]

This is my 14b journey so far let me know what you think. I have a 93 talon
my setup is 3" tbe , dejon 2g intake(replica) 2g mas, 550cc injectors, SAFC2, 255 walbro, Ebay fmic very big ,stock clutch, boost is set to 22psi but tapers down to 16psi at higher rpm's I live in Calgary, Canada we are at 3500ft above sea level so the air doesn't help so anyway I ran 3 weeks ago at are local track with stock rims on my winter tires(stock size) pulled off some decent times I thought was running 94 octane with about a gallon of toluene so I figured I was at about 103
so these are my times first run of the night 60' 1.987
330 5.656
1/8 8.667 82.03mph
1000 11.290
1/4 13.502 102.24mph
was very happy with this run as I improved my last years time by .4

second run of the night was almost identical 60' 1.97
330 5.631
1/8 8.663 81.95mph
1000 11.288
1/4 13.502 102.43mph

Got a better launch the third pass 60' 1.896
330 5.551
1/8 8.551 82.47mph
1000 11.168
1/4 13.371 102.76mph
4th pass ended up I missed 3rd gear finally got it in and ended up running a 14.5 the 60' sucked so I don't think it would have been a great pass anyway

finally the 5th pass of the night my best pass to date
60' 1.890
330 5.522
1/8 8.507 83.03mph
1/4 13.293 103.47mph
So generally was pretty happy with my runs a couple things I noticed was my clutch is slipping bad from 1st to 2nd and the winter tires suck for 60' I have a remedy for both I have an act 2100 to throw in it and a set of kosei rims that wiegh 14lbs with a set of Falken 615's for tires that should help the 60' to at least get into the 12's. I'm not so sure what the effect the high altitude has on the times but I'm sure it effects it a little. One more thing my a/f are at 11.2-10.8 so there is definately room to lean it out a bit and the race wieght of my car with me in it is 3196lbs . Any way this is my 14B story so far. I have really enjoyed reading all phil1320's exploits and between him and isimo they are my inspiration for doing this. Around here everyone that has a talon throws a bigger turbo on it right away and never see's what the little 14b is capable of. I've blown alot of people away with what I have accomplished already. Any input from you guys on what I should do next let me know thanks

 

[1SloEvo]

I started a build thread here:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/blogs/steve93talon/1567-fwd-14b-project-christine-pt-2.html

This is very similar to what I plan to do! Almost exactly, except I'm going to be using the stock motor as long as it will last. I'll keep an update on your Blog to see how things are coming.

 

[Phil1320]

steve, we had an external on our 14b car and it held 22psi solid. The other key i think you have is a laser. Good luck!!

I run an O2 mounted Tial 40mm and it holds boost solid as well. It's definitely a good thing to have in my opinion. I never experienced the serious boost drop off like some of the guys up here with headwork/valve upgrades, but when I was on the stock internal gate I would see the boost guage needle fluctuating at times when I gave a glance at it.

I've been reading this thread all the way through the past couple days and I'm liking it! It's pretty badass you can get into the 11s with a 14b. I recently had to part out my big turbo setup and will be running a 14b now. I'd like to see what I can do with it seeing as I'm in a awd mirage it should be decent.

I want to see how quick I can get it on stock injectors + management. First step is going to be picking up a 2g exhaust manifold and O2 housing and port the crap out of them. I've got 2 14bs apart that I'm going to rebuild and port the housings and smooth the compressor covers. I've still got a huge fmic setup with short routing so I'll use that. I'd really like to see 18psi out of the 14b with a hacked 1g mas and higher fuel pressure. If that's doable then I am going to look into a water/meth injection setup to put the boost up to 21-22psi if the 1g mas can handle it. I'd like to avoid using a safc/2g mas/550s sense this is a budget setup.

Sounds like it will run well. 18 psi shouldn't be a problem, but with that FMIC, not sure the stock fuel system will do it. I ran as much as 21 psi with stock non-eprom ecu, injectors, and stock FPR as well with no fuel control at all, and ran down to 12.0 ET's like that....but, this was on the stock sidemount I/C.

Good luck, should run well!

This is my 14b journey so far let me know what you think. I have a 93 talon
my setup is 3" tbe , dejon 2g intake(replica) 2g mas, 550cc injectors, SAFC2, 255 walbro, Ebay fmic very big ,stock clutch, boost is set to 22psi but tapers down to 16psi at higher rpm's I live in Calgary, Canada we are at 3500ft above sea level so the air doesn't help so anyway I ran 3 weeks ago at are local track with stock rims on my winter tires(stock size) pulled off some decent times I thought was running 94 octane with about a gallon of toluene so I figured I was at about 103
so these are my times first run of the night 60' 1.987
330 5.656
1/8 8.667 82.03mph
1000 11.290
1/4 13.502 102.24mph
was very happy with this run as I improved my last years time by .4

second run of the night was almost identical 60' 1.97
330 5.631
1/8 8.663 81.95mph
1000 11.288
1/4 13.502 102.43mph

Got a better launch the third pass 60' 1.896
330 5.551
1/8 8.551 82.47mph
1000 11.168
1/4 13.371 102.76mph
4th pass ended up I missed 3rd gear finally got it in and ended up running a 14.5 the 60' sucked so I don't think it would have been a great pass anyway

finally the 5th pass of the night my best pass to date
60' 1.890
330 5.522
1/8 8.507 83.03mph
1/4 13.293 103.47mph
So generally was pretty happy with my runs a couple things I noticed was my clutch is slipping bad from 1st to 2nd and the winter tires suck for 60' I have a remedy for both I have an act 2100 to throw in it and a set of kosei rims that wiegh 14lbs with a set of Falken 615's for tires that should help the 60' to at least get into the 12's. I'm not so sure what the effect the high altitude has on the times but I'm sure it effects it a little. One more thing my a/f are at 11.2-10.8 so there is definately room to lean it out a bit and the race wieght of my car with me in it is 3196lbs . Any way this is my 14B story so far. I have really enjoyed reading all phil1320's exploits and between him and isimo they are my inspiration for doing this. Around here everyone that has a talon throws a bigger turbo on it right away and never see's what the little 14b is capable of. I've blown alot of people away with what I have accomplished already. Any input from you guys on what I should do next let me know thanks

Nice, those are great runs so far! Thanks for the recognition here as well, much appreciated

As far as what I think you should do next--to the car? Nothing, except get a clutch in there that holds. If you can get the ACT Street lighter flywheel in there at the same time, even better. It really improves the response if nothing else and is well worth it.

What tire pressures were you running? I don't think you need to change tires in order to run quicker.......

I say get more drive time and play with tire pressures and such in order to get that 60' time down into the 1.7X range. It appears to me that your car has the power to tip into the 12's as it sits---pending new clutch disc.

Your A/F's are a bit fat at 10.8, but that's what I was running for A/F's when I was down at 12.0, so, it's safe anyway!

Obviously, your overall weight is fairly high at 3196, but, you can still make enough power to get well into the 12's. Do you run an 02 dump? If not, that would be the next mod I would suggest, or an 02 mounted external gate.

Good luck!

 

[supravw]

Sounds like it will run well. 18 psi shouldn't be a problem, but with that FMIC, not sure the stock fuel system will do it. I ran as much as 21 psi with stock non-eprom ecu, injectors, and stock FPR as well with no fuel control at all, and ran down to 12.0 ET's like that....but, this was on the stock sidemount I/C.

Good luck, should run well!

I've got a 255 intank and afpr so that's taken care of. I also read somewhere that switching to a -6AN feed from the filter to rail will help lower IDC's. I'll check into that if need be. I also picked up a stock eprom ecu. I'm waiting on parts and an electric die grinder to start work.

 

[1SloEvo]

When you guys do the O2 mounted external gate, what do you do about the flapper in the hotside. Do you guys just leave them there and let them open or do you have them removed? Although it would make the turbo useless w/o external w/g setup, to me it makes sense to remove the flapper and port the opening to work better with your external w/g. Just trying to figure out what most people do since I've never done that...but I might try it!

 

[Steve93Talon]

Remove the flapper, weld the hole shut where the pivot arm exits the housing, and port the heck out of the wastegate passage.

 

[1SloEvo]

Remove the flapper, weld the hole shut where the pivot arm exits the housing, and port the heck out of the wastegate passage.

Exactly what I was expecting to hear. Thanks!

 

[Nate Crisman]

I did something interesting last night....I ran 3 passes on normal 93 pump gas then drained the tank and put in 5 gallons of E85 for a somewhat back to back test. I was exhausted from working 2nd shift all week and just didn't have the energy to swap on the hoosiers or do any of the weight loss stuff (seats out, exhaust off). I knew the 60' times were going to be horrendous with these bald 215/45/17 decade old kumho H rated tires. Even if I bogged off the line, they would break loose as boost came up in first gear.

I had literally swapped the DSMlink chip in this afternoon and got it working about 4:30pm, so I basically went to the track with a completely untuned car and just winged it. I worked on the VE map 3 times on the way over to the track and got the A/F dialed in and smoothed out the timing curve. So tonight was an experimental night to learn the DSMlink software and screw around with an alcohol fuel for the first time.

Here's the runs:
13.351 @ 104.91 1.812 ~19psi boost.
13.178 @ 104.74 1.853
13.076 @ 105.09 1.814 Last pass on 93 gas
13.009 @ 106.95 1.812 First pass on E85.
12.882 @ 108.49 1.863
12.841 @ 109.06 1.910 (bogged launch)
12.792 @ 108.98 1.771 (spun in first a bit)

No video or pics. I'll post some screen shots and datalogs for anyone intersted in them. I want to see about overlaying the calculated HP/TQ graphs and map sensor between the 93 and E85 runs.

I changed the global fuel adjustment in DSMlink by changing the stoicheometric value of the fuel from 14.7 to 9.8. That took my global adjustment from like -42% to -13% I think and that made up the majority of the difference in energy content between gasoline and ethanol. After that I kept trimming away at the VE map to lean it out more after each run. (trying to aim for about 11.0 A/F on the gasoline scale wideband) BUT I wasn't running pure E85...there was some residual 93 pumpgas that you can't drain out of the tank as well as what was in both long lines, rail, injectors, filter, and pump. I might have been running something like E70? I think you need to fill the tank a couple times with E85 before it becomes absolutely pure. on gasoline I saw a maximum injector duty cycle of 62%, on E85 I was running about 80%. Same 40psi fuel pressure and similar high 10's A/F ratios. Running an intank walbro 255 and FIC 750cc injectors.

Remember, a little 14b that makes a whopping 32lb/min of airflow and barely can keep above 20psi. I might be able to max out these 750's on E85 with a 16g?

Then I drive the GVR4 over to the shop this morning to meet someone for parts and unload the tool box, gas cans, and track stuff, it wasn't making much boost and felt sluggish. On the way home, I got on it on one straight road...it made 20psi for about a second than a "snap" sound and then no boost. Just smoke. I got it home, pulled the intake, and the comp wheel/shaft is flopping around like the bearing is totally wasted.

Hindsight 20/20 note: I'v been running the AEM boost controller on the A setting at 65% duty cycle for my pumpgas everyday setting and using the B setting for racetrack. It used to be about 20-21psi on the A...but I was only seeing 19-18psi on my first 3 runs. Then when I put the E85 on, I switched over to the B setting of 73% which hasn't been touched or used since the 12.0 @ 113 night when it was making 26psi falling to about 22. Last night that barely made 21psi at all. I turned it up to 85% over those 4 runs which only got me 24psi falling to 20. Guess it just didn't right the bell that I was running more boost controller duty cycle than last time and seeing less boost. Bet the turbo was eating itself last night at the track.

And wouldn't you know it...I sold the last 14b I had this morning. Now the 14b I was planning to move onto the yellow DSM is blown. sux! So while I was thinking last night at home that I had at least got a decent base tune to start the talon project on E85, it seems I made one step forward and then one step back by blowing up the turbo.

 

[habitatguy187]

And wouldn't you know it...I sold the last 14b I had this morning.

PM me for a 14b on the cheap.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

I'll be taking my 14b powered FWD 1g to the track, San Antonio Raceway, tomorrow for the first time since my non-turbo -> turbo swap. All of my mods are in my profile. I'm just hoping I can get my launch figured out. I'm shooting for a mid 13 in the quarter but this will be my first time on the track with a turbo powered car so I know traction will be an issue. I'll post back tomorrow night with my results. Wish me luck!

 

[Nate Crisman]

Pulled the poor overworked and under-paid 14b off tonight to find this:

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Snapped off TDO5H turbine wheel. notice the chips, it's all beat up from contacting the turbine housing.

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The results of the wheel/housing contact: Im going to have to grab the dremel and some sandpaper flap wheels and try to get rid of the burrs so the next cartridge spins free. Sucks, as this was a nicely ported E3 7cm housing. I would have had it put together tonight if not for these burrs.

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Oh...I see what's missing! I'v got a used small 16g that Im going to slap on tomorrow after smoothing out the turbine housing without removing it from the car. Should be interesting to see what the 16g compressor wheel is worth compared to the 14b with no other changes.

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[SBstar]

Sounds like the E85 worked out pretty well then. I'm trying to talk the wife into letting me get some injectors so I can switch to E85, once you start paying for C16 a couple times it would be cheaper to get injectors and run E85. But, we may have bought a house so it might have to wait a while. I might try to get to the track this coming Wednesday night but it'll probably depend on what work looks like, plus we're leaving for Pennsylvania on Thursday. But I want that 12 second pass soon so I can start working it down lower!

Good luck today at the track 9!'clipseDOHC! Let us know how you do.

Overall, it's good to see a couple people getting out there finally, even if it is "new" people.

 

[SICKBIRD]

Nice, those are great runs so far! Thanks for the recognition here as well, much appreciated

As far as what I think you should do next--to the car? Nothing, except get a clutch in there that holds. If you can get the ACT Street lighter flywheel in there at the same time, even better. It really improves the response if nothing else and is well worth it.

What tire pressures were you running? I don't think you need to change tires in order to run quicker.......

I say get more drive time and play with tire pressures and such in order to get that 60' time down into the 1.7X range. It appears to me that your car has the power to tip into the 12's as it sits---pending new clutch disc.

Your A/F's are a bit fat at 10.8, but that's what I was running for A/F's when I was down at 12.0, so, it's safe anyway!

Obviously, your overall weight is fairly high at 3196, but, you can still make enough power to get well into the 12's. Do you run an 02 dump? If not, that would be the next mod I would suggest, or an 02 mounted external gate.

Good luck!

Thanks Phil I was hoping you would chime in here. As for tire pressure I was at 28 psi I know it was high but honestly forgot about adjusting it and didn't bring a tire pressure gauge anyway.I figure I might aswell throw the tires and rims on cause they are alot lighter and the tire's are 225/45/17's wich will definately aid in traction . I know I need to do the clutch to but I was kinda hoping to do the tranny aswell when it's out so will see I guess . What kinda a/f ratio's are you running now? I do know my wieght is heavy but I don't want to strip the car to much I still want to have interior in it I would be happy to run a mid 12 right now anyway. Why an o2 dump ? whats the gain? Was just wondering what is the record for fastest 14b car in Canada?
Thanks again

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

I ran on the track today, like I said this was my first time since my turbo swap. It was 95 degrees outside and I made a total of 10 passes. My best ET was a 14.3360 @ 101.17 MPH with a 2.4399 60'. My best 60' of the day was a 2.3789 so I really need to work on my FWD launch. I was really hoping to get into the 13's but I'm still happy with how my car did and now I know what I need to work on. All in all it was a success.

 

[SBstar]

I ran on the track today, like I said this was my first time since my turbo swap. It was 95 degrees outside and I made a total of 10 passes. My best ET was a 14.3360 @ 101.17 MPH with a 2.4399 60'. My best 60' of the day was a 2.3789 so I really need to work on my FWD launch. I was really hoping to get into the 13's but I'm still happy with how my car did and now I know what I need to work on. All in all it was a success.

FWD makes it tough, did you experiment with different launch rpms and try lowering the tire pressure? Overall though it's just good to get out to the track and work on things and see what needs improvement, the mph's aren't too bad so it's making power, just gotta get that 60' down.

 

[SICKBIRD]

Not bad at all for fwd you will have to update your avatar

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

FWD makes it tough, did you experiment with different launch rpms and try lowering the tire pressure? Overall though it's just good to get out to the track and work on things and see what needs improvement, the mph's aren't too bad so it's making power, just gotta get that 60' down.

I tried varying launch rpms. My first launch was at 4,000 rpms and I spun like crazy, it was a 2.9 60'. I changed to 3,500 rpms and got better launches but I'm getting some wheel hop. I have AGX struts set to full soft in the front and full stiff in the back and Prothane motor mounts, I thought that was supposed to help with the wheel hop. I never tried lowering the pressures. What is a good pressure?

Not bad at all for fwd you will have to update your avatar

Thanks! Profile and signature have been updated with the new times.

 

[1SloEvo]

On street tires, 3500rpm still seems quite a bit high. I would guess you would need to be launching in the 3k rpm range...maybe just a bit higher. Tire pressure for street tires should probably stay in the mid 20s or so at their lowest...just to save the tires if nothing else. They were not intended to run on that low of pressure.

Mathematically, your car has the power to go mid 13s all day long once you get the 60' times down. Every 0.1 off your 60' typically equates to 0.2 off your ET. So if you dropped the 60' times down in the 1.9x range, you've knocked of 0.5 from the 60' which should be 1 second off your ET...putting you around 13.3-13.4. If you can get down in the 1.7 range for you 60', you might be able to get down around 13.0-13.1!!! Of course that would take lots of practice and at least some drag radials on a FWD! I'll be there doing the same thing soon in my Laser!

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

On street tires, 3500rpm still seems quite a bit high. I would guess you would need to be launching in the 3k rpm range...maybe just a bit higher. Tire pressure for street tires should probably stay in the mid 20s or so at their lowest...just to save the tires if nothing else. They were not intended to run on that low of pressure.

Mathematically, your car has the power to go mid 13s all day long once you get the 60' times down. Every 0.1 off your 60' typically equates to 0.2 off your ET. So if you dropped the 60' times down in the 1.9x range, you've knocked of 0.5 from the 60' which should be 1 second off your ET...putting you around 13.3-13.4. If you can get down in the 1.7 range for you 60', you might be able to get down around 13.0-13.1!!! Of course that would take lots of practice and at least some drag radials on a FWD! I'll be there doing the same thing soon in my Laser!

I tried 3,000 rpms but it would just bog out. I pretty much stuck with 3,500. Next time I'll try something in between and also try lowering the tire pressure. I was trying and trying for 13's and I know the key is in the 60'. Here were all of my runs in order:

60' ET MPH
2.8 17.6 95.5 (Launch at 4k, spun all through 1st)
2.7 14.7 101.9 (no launch, best MPH)
2.8 15.0 100.6 (launch at 3k)
2.5 14.6 100.6 (started launching at 3.5k)
2.3 14.4 99.5 (best 60')
2.5 14.7 98.8
2.6 14.9 89.2 (on the brakes, I had 0 boost on gauge, blew my gauge line off)
2.6 14.7 101.5
2.4 14.3 101.1 (best ET)
2.5 14.6 99.7

Most of the runs were back to back and it was 95* so I'm sure my SMIC was heat soaked like crazy. Any other tips y'all have for getting traction, I'm all ears. I want 13's!

 

[SBstar]

For a fwd, slicks, or in the very least drag radials if you want some kind of traction. You definately want to lower the tire pressure a bit, I'd start around 25psi but go no lower then 20 on street radials. Personally I ran 25psi in mine with awd and was still spinning, I can't imagine being fwd. Track prep also plays a role, most T-n-T nights aren't going to be nearly as well prepped as event days.

 

[1SloEvo]

If you were bogging at 3k, then do like you mentioned. Drop the tire pressure. I'm assuming you were around 32psi or so in your tires since you didn't drop the pressure. I would start by dropping them to 27-28psi and launching around 3300rpm. You need to ride the clutch a little though. That might work pretty well. If you're still spinning just a bit, keep the rpm and drop the pressure down around 25psi and you should be good. 2-3psi makes a huge difference. Just be sure to make a couple of passes on each change if possible to make sure the changes you see in the run are from changes made to the car...not from something different in your technique. Change the least amount of variables between each run to be sure to learn from each change. That way you can put the best of all changes together. Otherwise, I see you running 13s real soon. Everything else about the runs looks good (except your boost gauge line blowing off - zip ties FTW)!