The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Steve93Talon]

^ Read entire thread...seriously.

We've pretty much beat the topic to death now, until people start getting out and putting down numbers, we really won't be sure what is the most beneficial beyond what we already know. The 2g head/Evo III intake mani sounds like a great setup, but we haven't seen anyone do much with it yet in the 14b realm. Personally I think the key ingredients include weight loss, strong motor, stronger launch.

I've read the thread, seriously. Unlike alot of the benchracing/speculation/theory throughout the thread, I'm willing to actually try different parts like cams, heads, intakes, intercoolers, fuels, etc back to back to gain real world information. I already have pretty much a plan for the setup i'd like, I was just looking to see what others thought they'd like to see used with a 14b as a "perfect combo".

 

[TSimage]

In all seriousness.. Its mechanically suggested that a 2G head would improve performance over the 1g. The ONLY benefits of a 1g head is its massive chambers which only benefit people running large frame turbos as in 40r and larger. Other than that people are most likely losing ground in their builds. Those 272 cams also killed you, guranteed. the power band of the 14b isn't in the range of 272s. A nice 264/264 setup would be perfect. For a 16g I would go 264/272. Regardless without needing any "proof" of anything beyond what has been proven and what is known about the characteristics of these builds is a solid 8.5-9:1 motor (possibly higher compression if needed) running a 264 cam setup on a 2g head with a evo 3 intake manifold and 7cm evo 3 housing and manifold ported/ hogged out (or even a larger tubed SS manifold or even a FP manifold at that) into a megan style unrecirculated o2 housing, ported compressor housing and a meth injected hot pipe on e85 would produce maximum results.

This is giving the fast spool characteristics of the 2g/evo3 setup and the increased flow from larger 7cm housing and exhaust parts.

This would be the ultimate tdo5 turbo setup. It expends no bottom end and doesnt waste anything up top. Yes, this is all speculation but from a mechanical standpoint and what we already know through research, this is the ultimate setup.

I will be running something similar in my Galant. I will be starting with the 6 bolt head/intake manifold and then switching over to the Evo3 top half down the line if funds so allow. The rest of the parts are as mentioned except for myo2 housing is recirculated because I prefer the sleeper element and although unrecirculated housings are known to help with spool, that isn't an issue for this turbo so I probably wont lose anything.

Me and Dave would have some numbers for you but for whatever stupid fking reason, no one has a spare 344 mount. A guy is getting back to me today and hopefully he wont try to milk me for it.

 

[habitatguy187]

Cyclone IM is where it's at, but I guess if you're building boost off the line and using nlts it doesn't really matter what spool speed is.

 

[SBstar]

I've read the thread, seriously. Unlike alot of the benchracing/speculation/theory throughout the thread, I'm willing to actually try different parts like cams, heads, intakes, intercoolers, fuels, etc back to back to gain real world information. I already have pretty much a plan for the setup i'd like, I was just looking to see what others thought they'd like to see used with a 14b as a "perfect combo".

If you have money to spare and time and energy to throw at it, I pretty much agree with everything TSimage said. I'd probably end up throwing a liquid to air intercooler in there though, I still doubt the efficiency of a hotpipe design unless you're going with straight ethanol/methanol, of course there have been good results on a certain 1g auto that sort of make me wonder.

If you're going to be running straight methanol, I'd go high compression, probably at least the 10.5:1 range.

Side exit/short exhaust would probably be thrown on there. For the weight savings and absolutely no backpressure worries.

I like the 264/264 cam combo idea, but there are so many options out there in that variety I'd talk to someone who would really give you the best one. FP obviously has made a "special set" that Phil will hopefully be trying out for us.

Joe Bucci had it right, it's very very tough to argue with his results. Ideally I'd worry less about the "perfect" motor setup, and more about weight loss parts, fabrication, and making sure I'm hitting great 60fts.

 

[TSimage]

Cyclone IM is where it's at, but I guess if you're building boost off the line and using nlts it doesn't really matter what spool speed is.

There is really zero lag... I'm not quite sure if there would be any gains from a cycle manifold and not sure of the cyclones designed to fit a 2g head.. Considering the 2G head would be the most efficient route, naturally the E3 intake mani would be its best companion.

SB summed it all up in the end its going to be about weight reduction, tuning and driving.

As soon as we finish the Galant we will be running it at full weight to see where we are at and letting Dave's tuning do the talking. After we have seen what we can accomplish going that route we will move onto weight savings that can come from removing the AWS system, A/C, Heat, carpets, seats, etc etc.

We're almost ready to go, when the mount gets here its game on. Hopefully have the car running by the end of June at 100%.

Oh and I have another secret weapon :

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If all else fails we'll throw the motor in from the high compression aluminum rod motor from the Talon:

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This damn thing will run one way or another.

 

[SBstar]

Snuck out and did a little tuning Thursday night, got rid of all knock and boost leaks. I figured today was as good as any to get to the track to warm up for my late start to the season. The boost controller has seized itself up so I am/pretty much was stuck at a max of 15psi. (old Bushur style the nut has seized on the "bolt"). Figured it'd be good enough to make a few passes on to get a feel for it. All with straight 93 octane pump gas in the tank.

Best time was
13.119 @ 104.53
60ft of 1.803
1/8th 8.3505 @ 83.48

Best 60ft was a 1.79 I couldn't hook at all, forgot a tire pressure gauge so I couldn't lower the pressure down which really would've helped. Overall I'm just glad I got out and got that fire back. Next time we'll throw some real fuel in the tank and up the boost shooting for 12's. Race weight was 2980 with me in the car with a ton of weight loss left to do, still has essentially a full interior, all sound deadening, full doors, etc...I think by the end of this years racing season if I can keep finding time for it I should be able to hit my 2010 goal of 12.5's. I picked up a wideband and plan on installing that into the car this next week which should help with the tuning.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Here's where I'm at:

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This last weeks accomplishments:

• Built a motor this week & stuck it in
• JMF coil bracket, JMF intake, Fidanza flywheel, ACT2900/6pk installed
• washed the engine bay
• removed the wiring harnesses (already cut down to 13.5lb total for the entire car)
• mocked up the air/water ic, figured out pipe route & sizes.
• got my Tstat, water pipe, and TB clean up and the unused stuff blocked off via welds and threaded npt plugs
• ice water holding tank designed and went to fab shop. (bolts to existing pass seat mounts)
• center diff went to welding shop..once that comes back monday I'll build a trans and stick it in. I have a good trans apart and cleaned ready to assemble.
• Roughly figured out the fuel system layout.

This week I'll work on building a trans and installing it, fab work on the custom 2.5" compressor outlet pipe and the 3" pipe between ic and TB, start working on driveline install of axles,xcase, driveshaft, shifter, cables, and clutch hydraulics. Maybe start cutting the front sheetmetal up to mount the fuel cell & pump, so I can start fiddling with the fuel lines.

Still a long long way to go before it runs, but Im shooing to make passes on the 4th of July weekend.

 

[forcefed86]

There is really zero lag... I'm not quite sure if there would be any gains from a cycle manifold and not sure of the cyclones designed to fit a 2g head.. Considering the 2G head would be the most efficient route, naturally the E3 intake mani would be its best companion.

SB summed it all up in the end its going to be about weight reduction, tuning and driving.

As soon as we finish the Galant we will be running it at full weight to see where we are at and letting Dave's tuning do the talking. After we have seen what we can accomplish going that route we will move onto weight savings that can come from removing the AWS system, A/C, Heat, carpets, seats, etc etc.

We're almost ready to go, when the mount gets here its game on. Hopefully have the car running by the end of June at 100%.

Oh and I have another secret weapon :

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That piping looks very familiar...?

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I still don't think no IC is the way to go. There is not time for the air charge to be cooled efficiently. Just like a radiator with no thermostat. I don't see what all the fuss about spool time with an auto is? You're brake boosting at the start of the quarter and never out of boost till the end?

Not trying to harp on your point of view, just trying to understand... Awesome build BTW, Can't wait to see the final result. You spraying anything pre-turbo?

 

[hubz91talontsi]

I still don't think no IC is the way to go.

I guess you don't know joe bucci or john shepherd quite simply.. No intercooler is exactly the way to go. Big bulky intercoolers take up air. You lose air in the transfer from the turbo to intercooler to the intake. By reducing the intercooler you simply make power via water/air setup or methonal. Its a win/win.

 

[SBstar]

I guess you don't know joe bucci or john shepherd quite simply.. No intercooler is exactly the way to go. Big bulky intercoolers take up air. You lose air in the transfer from the turbo to intercooler to the intake. By reducing the intercooler you simply make power via water/air setup or methonal. Its a win/win.

Not trying to be a pain, but Joe Bucci did run an IC. John Shepherd runs straight methanol which is worlds apart from a normal setup. If you can cool the air enough with an alcohol based fuel, I completely agree, dump the IC, however, for the majority of setups it's more efficient to run an IC. So in other words, I'm agreeing, but adding another point

 

[Steve93Talon]

Those 272 cams also killed you, guranteed. the power band of the 14b isn't in the range of 272s. A nice 264/264 setup would be perfect.... running a 264 cam setup on a 2g head with a evo 3 intake manifold and 7cm evo 3 housing and manifold ported/ hogged out (or even a larger tubed SS manifold or even a FP manifold at that) into a megan style unrecirculated o2 housing, ported compressor housing and a meth injected hot pipe on e85 would produce maximum results.

This is giving the fast spool characteristics of the 2g/evo3 setup and the increased flow from larger 7cm housing and exhaust parts.

This would be the ultimate tdo5 turbo setup. It expends no bottom end and doesnt waste anything up top. Yes, this is all speculation but from a mechanical standpoint and what we already know through research, this is the ultimate setup.

Like I said in my first post, I'm pretty convinced the 272s did more harm than good, you can see it in the dyno curve here. I'd like to think outside the box on cams and try some others like the FP1X & GSC S1s. I'd prefer to just baseline on the 1G head/intake/cams then do the 2G head swap before trying different cams, but I need to find an EVO 3 intake manifold before that can happen.

If you have money to spare and time and energy to throw at it, I pretty much agree with everything TSimage said. I'd probably end up throwing a liquid to air intercooler in there though, I still doubt the efficiency of a hotpipe design unless you're going with straight ethanol/methanol, of course there have been good results on a certain 1g auto that sort of make me wonder.

I've been down the W/A road before, it has it's place but I think with ethanol/methanol fuel it's not really going to add anything worthwhile. I've already got a pretty big FMIC for the car, and I'll probably try it back to back with a hotpipe once the rest is sorted out.

If you're going to be running straight methanol, I'd go high compression, probably at least the 10.5:1 range.

I've already got a 9:1 built engine from a 2G I just parted out, so I'll be sticking with that. I agree that higher compression would help, but I'm going to have to work with what I've got in that area for now.

Side exit/short exhaust would probably be thrown on there. For the weight savings and absolutely no backpressure worries.

It'll have a downpipe either dumping straight out or maybe a side exit right behind the front pass. side wheel. I'll also have an o2 dump on it. I might also try an external gate on the o2, to see if it'll hold boost any better. My previous setup hit 23psi and was down to 18psi by 6k.

I like the 264/264 cam combo idea, but there are so many options out there in that variety I'd talk to someone who would really give you the best one. FP obviously has made a "special set" that Phil will hopefully be trying out for us.

Like I said above, one area I'd like to experiment with the most is cams. I think they can give the best gains in terms of area under the curve, rather than just chasing peak power.

Joe Bucci had it right, it's very very tough to argue with his results. Ideally I'd worry less about the "perfect" motor setup, and more about weight loss parts, fabrication, and making sure I'm hitting great 60fts.

I agree 100%, weight and aero will probably help alot more than finding that last 20hp. I'll be taking every bit out of weight that I can out of this car, it cost me next to nothing so if it goes to the scrapyard when I'm done I'm not worried about it. I'll also be making mirror block-off plates, blocking most of the front bumper openings, and I'm going to fab an undertray to cover as much area as I can. It'll have full slicks on it.

Here's how she looks as I got her. I'll start a build blog and post the link soon.

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[TSimage]

That piping looks very familiar...?

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I still don't think no IC is the way to go. There is not time for the air charge to be cooled efficiently. Just like a radiator with no thermostat. I don't see what all the fuss about spool time with an auto is? You're brake boosting at the start of the quarter and never out of boost till the end?

Not trying to harp on your point of view, just trying to understand... Awesome build BTW, Can't wait to see the final result. You spraying anything pre-turbo?

Um, its going into a Galant which is a 5spd, not an auto.

And the air temps wont even be a concern running either e85 or e98 as well as doing either a full meth injection or a meth water mic. That hot pipe has 4 injector points alone. Imagine, instant spool, practically zero pressure drop on an already anemic turbo that needs all it can get.

We'll be ok .

 

[emo1010]

It'll have a downpipe either dumping straight out or maybe a side exit right behind the front pass. side wheel. I'll also have an o2 dump on it. I might also try an external gate on the o2, to see if it'll hold boost any better. My previous setup hit 23psi and was down to 18psi by 6k.

steve, we had an external on our 14b car and it held 22psi solid. The other key i think you have is a laser. Good luck!!

 

[Phil1320]

Snuck out and did a little tuning Thursday night, got rid of all knock and boost leaks. I figured today was as good as any to get to the track to warm up for my late start to the season. The boost controller has seized itself up so I am/pretty much was stuck at a max of 15psi. (old Bushur style the nut has seized on the "bolt"). Figured it'd be good enough to make a few passes on to get a feel for it. All with straight 93 octane pump gas in the tank.

Best time was
13.119 @ 104.53
60ft of 1.803
1/8th 8.3505 @ 83.48

Best 60ft was a 1.79 I couldn't hook at all, forgot a tire pressure gauge so I couldn't lower the pressure down which really would've helped. Overall I'm just glad I got out and got that fire back. Next time we'll throw some real fuel in the tank and up the boost shooting for 12's. Race weight was 2980 with me in the car with a ton of weight loss left to do, still has essentially a full interior, all sound deadening, full doors, etc...I think by the end of this years racing season if I can keep finding time for it I should be able to hit my 2010 goal of 12.5's. I picked up a wideband and plan on installing that into the car this next week which should help with the tuning.

Nice job! just about ready to tip into the 12's. I remember 13.11 became one of my personal bests years back, then hit 13.02....then into the 12's at 12.95. You will obviously hit the 12's this year for sure. If you can get that 60' down .10 you're there....I was running 12.8-9 with your 104 traps...

I like the 264/264 cam combo idea, but there are so many options out there in that variety I'd talk to someone who would really give you the best one. FP obviously has made a "special set" that Phil will hopefully be trying out for us.

Joe Bucci had it right, it's very very tough to argue with his results. Ideally I'd worry less about the "perfect" motor setup, and more about weight loss parts, fabrication, and making sure I'm hitting great 60fts.

Unfortunately, I won't be tossing the cams in any time soon. I would like to be able to provide you with those results, both on the dyno and at the strip. Honestly, I'm sure they will work well with my basic set up, stock engine, compression, head, etc. But, the other guys have proven that even building an engine totally for larger turbos will still get the job done with the 14b. I would think the HKS 264 would be the best cam out there for the 14b.......on a stock head anyway.

I haven't been up here much in the last few months, but, what happend to all the new guys that were going to be out on the 14b this year? I was thinking I'd come up here and see some new numbers. I'm thinking that some of them have figured out that running 11's, let alone 10's, on the 14b is no walk in the park.

To add to some of the replies up here. I don't know if there is a "perfect" set-up for the 14b...at the strip anyway. As I stated above, it looks like any set-up will work with this turbo. I'm talking bolt-on parts here, not fuel choices---I know this can be relative to the bolt-on set-up---but I will continue to run standard race gas with a traditional air-air I/C set up so I'm not speaking of methanol - E85 etc. Someone mentioned the Cyclone intake mani....I have one in the garage, but I truly feel it would not help me at the strip at all, if anything it appears that it would slow intake velocity, so, I haven't put it on and don't plan to unless the car is used for other purposes than drag racing. However, I would entertain any case against this.

So, I agree, it's less about the perfect set-up, and more about power to weight and driving. With some decent weight reduction, all you need is about 260 AWHP to run low 12's and maybe tip into the 11's. And, any decent running 4G63 with good compression and basic bolt-ons should be able to hit 260 AWHP.....

 

[Gooberlog]

I think a buddy of mine has a complete 14b available for sale if anyone needs a back up. I can check on condition and get pics and a price for you guys if you want. I'm sure all of these 14b's running max boost levels, one of them will kick the bucket soon just as mine did back in April.

 

[Phil1320]

I think a buddy of mine has a complete 14b available for sale if anyone needs a back up. I can check on condition and get pics and a price for you guys if you want. I'm sure all of these 14b's running max boost levels, one of them will kick the bucket soon just as mine did back in April.

I'd be interested.

 

[Gooberlog]

I'll try to get info/pics tonight for you Phil.

 

[Phil1320]

I'll try to get info/pics tonight for you Phil.

Cool....I figured with what I found on the VR4, having an extra around wouldn't be a bad idea. How's the Laser? Heading back to the strip soon?

 

[1SloEvo]

Been reading through this thread for a while now. I am pretty stoked about my upcoming adventure. I picked up a 1990 Laser RS turbo and plan to do a "Bucci" kind of thing with the car. However, I've got a couple of different steps in the road that I want to make just to see what the car runs in different configurations instead of going straight into the strip it, slick it, add more boost and fuel and run it kind of setup. I am hoping to be able to get remotely close to what his times were and I know it will be a long and hard road, but whatever I end up running will be fine. The car is 100% stock right now with exception to the wheels and has 143000 miles on it. I did a compression check and the numbers were all in the 150-160 range...so the motor should be doing good. I'll knock out a few maintenance items and then get to racing it once I get back in town in August!

I'll keep an eye out on this thread to see how some of the other 14b cars in here end up running this year.

 

[hawaiifiveoh]

Has anyone tried going with an auto setup for decent 14b times?

 

[SBstar]

Has anyone tried going with an auto setup for decent 14b times?

There's a car/person who was posting in here a while back, but kind of disappeared around the start of the racing season (at least the start of the season for us up north guys).

 

[Gooberlog]

Cool....I figured with what I found on the VR4, having an extra around wouldn't be a bad idea. How's the Laser? Heading back to the strip soon?

Phil, I'm still trying to get that turbo from my friend. Our schedules conflict and at his work they have gates that they close up at 6ish and i need him to get them out of the shop.

The laser is great. I got the holset turbo on the car and running a few weeks ago. About a week ago i resealed the oil lines on it and haven't driven it more than a mile to check to make sure they sealed good yet. I need to boost it up a bit to make sure she's all good. Right now with the stock motor and a weak clutch I have the boost set a "low" 20psi on pump gas. From what i've read, this turbo wakes up at 26psi and guys are pushing them in to the upper 30's and even low 40's pounds of boost. I have a ACT 2100 in my car and i think that raising the boost will make it slip, so i'm working on getting a 2600 PP and my clutch dis should be ok to keep using. I'm also looking to a set of ARP head studs. Once i upgrade the clutch i'll try running 25-26psi but i'd like to get some head studs before i go up to say 30psi. I'm working on some engine internals soon so maybe by the end of the year i can upgrade this thing to run 30psi all the time. I think i might wait on going to the track until i get a new clutch, cause right now mine is ok and i can probably get some money for it to go towards the next one. I'll let you know about that turbo soon.

 

[Phil1320]

Phil, I'm still trying to get that turbo from my friend. Our schedules conflict and at his work they have gates that they close up at 6ish and i need him to get them out of the shop.

The laser is great. I got the holset turbo on the car and running a few weeks ago. About a week ago i resealed the oil lines on it and haven't driven it more than a mile to check to make sure they sealed good yet. I need to boost it up a bit to make sure she's all good. Right now with the stock motor and a weak clutch I have the boost set a "low" 20psi on pump gas. From what i've read, this turbo wakes up at 26psi and guys are pushing them in to the upper 30's and even low 40's pounds of boost. I have a ACT 2100 in my car and i think that raising the boost will make it slip, so i'm working on getting a 2600 PP and my clutch dis should be ok to keep using. I'm also looking to a set of ARP head studs. Once i upgrade the clutch i'll try running 25-26psi but i'd like to get some head studs before i go up to say 30psi. I'm working on some engine internals soon so maybe by the end of the year i can upgrade this thing to run 30psi all the time. I think i might wait on going to the track until i get a new clutch, cause right now mine is ok and i can probably get some money for it to go towards the next one. I'll let you know about that turbo soon.

No sweat, I'm not going anywhere!

Sounds like an awesome set up Trav. I see why you want to take it easy as of yet though. Smart choice. Can't wait to hear how well it runs at the strip even if it's not til next year. Glad you got your dream set-up and I'm sure it will rip!

 

[jjrock5]

I've silently been reading this thread. I have ran FP T28, T25, HX35, and now a FP Green.

I have a 14b in my basement, maybe someday at some point it'd be interesting to build up one of these and have some fun with the lil snail.

Keep up the 14b update guys.

 

[SBstar]

Keep up the 14b update guys.

Wish there was more to post then my slow times, where are all these guys at who posted up these grand setups!

I expected SBR to be knocking on the 11's with their setup by this time, must have gotten busy with other ventures.

I hit the track again two days after my first runs, it was an Import showdown day and I figured why not enter and have some fun, learn a little bit about competitive racing and get some practice on a pro tree. I tossed some 110 in the tank (they don't have C16 at that drag strip) and took a guess on the boost controller. Ended up at 18psi for the day. The first pass was the "best", a 13.2 @ 104, 2nd gear would not go in at all. Felt like the shifter was hitting a wall before 2nd would engage. I figured I just missed so I tried another qualifying round, again this time 2nd did the same thing, finally clicking in with a little grinding on the 3rd or 4th attempt. Same thing all day, made 4 passes in all before I was eliminated, placed 3rd out of the 6 people in the class I ran, overall it was a pretty sad turnout for the event. 13.2, 13.5, 13.9, and 13.5 again...none of them with 2nd gear.

Got the car home and figured out my shifter cables gave up the ghost, I had excessive play in one of the ends, looked like something gave up. I ordered a new set and just got them installed yesterday, shifts smoother now then it ever did. Also picked up a new set of spark plugs to replace my 2 year old bpr6es finally. Unfortunately another shot at 12's will have to wait a couple weeks as we have a vacation all next week followed by another trip for a wedding in Pennsylvania.