The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Nate Crisman]

Nice graph! Someone has a lot of time on their hands.

Ill make the same graph in a few weeks when my 1g talon is running with a 14b & hotpipe on E85 and we can compare and see if the boost graph is significantly different. That will also give us data on what AIT a 14b is truely putting out running it "way out of range" and we can then get a rough idea of intercooler efficiency.

Real Data

 

[pneumo]

Those are both amazing times. What was the MPH on the 11.69 run? What was the cars weight at the time?

It was 116mph on that run. The car weighed 2850 with me in it.
BTW after I swapped on the big fmic and 3" uicp, I also matched it with FFTec's 75mm Leakproof throttle body.

 

[Nate Crisman]

PWR Barrel Liquid/Air IC 02510062 6"x10"x19" 650 HP 920 CFM <--that's what was on the 14b record setting passes so apparently matching a "rated" 920cfm/650hp intercooler with a 405cfm/300hp turbocharger works just fine.


Don't tell the 14b record holder he should have been running this one if he wanted to go even faster!
PWR Barrel Liquid/Air IC 02406041 4"x6"x11.75" 270 HP 390 CFM

 

[Phil1320]

PWR Barrel Liquid/Air IC 02510062 6"x10"x19" 650 HP 920 CFM <--that's what was on the 14b record setting passes so apparently matching a "rated" 920cfm/650hp intercooler with a 405cfm/300hp turbocharger works just fine.


Don't tell the 14b record holder he should have been running this one if he wanted to go even faster!
PWR Barrel Liquid/Air IC 02406041 4"x6"x11.75" 270 HP 390 CFM

I was gonna jump in the middle of this one but it was nice to sit back and watch for once

Will be interesting to see what comes of it Nate. You seem to have some nice ideas to push up against that goal of 10.83.

If/when I get back to the track(possible an 11.4 second 14b car may be for sale)....I'll be on a larger FMIC than the EVO 8, what it will be, who knows!

Good luck!

 

[forcefed86]

Ok..the first thing you said and I quoted it twice: "small smic" and "mid 11's" your statement is just wrong. None of the currently running fast cars are running anything either sidemounted nor small. Your trying to back away from this by twisting it around. None of the fast 14b cars have made any attempt at keeping the intercooler volume small, and the best running cars all have considerably large intercooler volume. Reality is not in line with your original statement.

Never said anything about 11's. I just said "the fast guys". And yes I said small. Small in comparison to some of the over kill IC's I've seen at the track. It was a general statement. Simply saying matching an IC to the turbo is key. That is all. Not trying to back out of anything.

It takes X amount of time for Y turbo to fill Z volume. The bigger the volume the longer it will take. There is no proof needed there. It's physics. And while I think your .003 time guesstimate may be a little off. I don't see how you can say that even .003 off the total ET is not a difference. Or does not exist. There is no such thing as instant boost.

An A/A IC can only be so efficient. Up until that point going larger will of course be better. After that point air outlet temp will cease to drop any farther and you'll just be left with more volume to fill. You will never be able to cool air to less than ambient. This is why I say a small more efficient core will work better. Just like the one posted.

Bigger is ALWAYS better. Prove me wrong with data and real world examples, not guestimates.

That's a pretty broad statement. And it's just not the case for any type of performance racing. Efficiency is key. Bigger does not always mean better. You can take a large A/A IC and put it up against a smaller more efficient core with better results and less lag.

I'd love to take a 300hp rated barrel IC I posted, and run it on your setup and measure the temp and E/T difference it would make. But I don't have a 14b car and comparing 2 different cars is a waste anyway. My DSM is a heavy daily driven car with all the options. Not my race toy.

I'm saying that in the real world even a dinky 14b can pressurize even the biggest volume intercooler system so quickly that it doesn't make any major difference at the drag strip. Maybe it makes a tiny difference in on/off throttle situations? But the drag strip is NOT an on/off throttle situation.

Maybe we just agree to disagree on what is considered an important "difference at the drag strip". Because a tenth can make or break you on race night. And if I can gain a tenth by going to smaller more efficient IC then I'm going to do it.

I think you'd be surprised how long it takes that 14B to pressurize that IC. As you said give me proof not guestimates. Put a pressure transducer on both sides and log it. I bet that little 14B spikes to bejesus trying to fill that IC initially. Generating allot more heat than is needed as well by doing so.

I'll make an excel graph of boost pressure vs. time for my last run at the track with a 14b and a 24x12x4" fmic and long routed 2.5" pipes to prove my point.

The graph is nice but what is it being compared to? How does it prove anything?

Comparing it to a completely non IC'd car won't prove anything either. Also I believe this has been done and logged over in the Alcohol injection pages. Results were poor. If I were going this route I'd give 100% methanol a try.

PWR Barrel Liquid/Air IC 02510062 6"x10"x19" 650 HP 920 CFM <--that's what was on the 14b record setting passes so apparently matching a "rated" 920cfm/650hp intercooler with a 405cfm/300hp turbocharger works just fine.


Don't tell the 14b record holder he should have been running this one if he wanted to go even faster!
PWR Barrel Liquid/Air IC 02406041 4"x6"x11.75" 270 HP 390 CFM

Again this proves nothing. The record holder has not tried a smaller unit? If your not making 600hp why do you think you need 600 hp worth of IC? It is very possible to cool the air to much with a water to air core. This will cause you to make less power.

Sorry if Im coming off as a jack-ass. I'm normally not the guy who goes off on rants, not sure why this rubbed me the wrong way.

Not at all, no worries mate. I've been a fan of you and your car for a while now. Just having a discussion.

 

[Nate Crisman]

All the graph proves is that when you don't lift on the shifts, the boost pressure doesn't really drop much at all on the gear changes, it only dips down to about 18psi during the fuel cut and then is back up to max boost on the first datalog sample that has fuel flowing. I honestly don't think we are talking even a hundreth of a second of ET change due to faster spoolup. I'v been racing these cars for more than a decade with all kinds of setups, mostly with smaller turbo, and in my experience we are arguing over nothing. We would be better off worrying about ideal gearing and tire size, weight loss, optimizing cam/intake manifold, and making the best of the exhaust path before we worry about the volume of the intercooler system, as those things will show more gain for the effort

While yes, physics states that it takes longer for XXX compressor to fill larger volume. Im just saying that I don't believe it to be significant enough variance to even be a consideration. IMO choosing an intercooler should be about maximising the temperature efficiency and pressure drop with respect to weight and packaging constraints. I still honestly believe there is no such thing as too cold or too big because even the largest air/air that we can possibly fit on the car is nowhere near as efficient as it could be.

I'm absolutely SURE running a 300hp rated air/water core to replace my xspower 24x12x4 air/air fmic would pick up power and ET. But Im just as sure that going to a 650hp rated air/water will make even more power and ET because it has more surface area and can sink heat quickly. That is where we diverge in opinion. If I can scrape together the cash, I'll surely test out an air/water core this summer. If I had the money, my 14b car would be getting a monsterous air/water core behind the firewall...something rated for like 1000hp. The larger the core mass, the more heat you can sink into it in a 10 second burst.' Straight methanol and no intercooler is the cheapest and simplest so that's what Im doing long run. (but I'll start on E85 in a couple weeks for shakedown runs)

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Glad your cool with me being an A-hole. ahahahaha No hard feelings at all.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Oh, how annoyed and frustrated am I!

12.398 @ 110.08 1.675 6250 launch boost 24 to 19psi. mid 11's AF. WAY early 1-2 shift, spinning.
12.079 @ 111.76 1.573 6250 launch spun through first gear. added 2* of timing, leaned out fuel little
12.067 @ 112.59 1.639 5750 launch. some spin. leaned out fuel, Boost up to 26psi spike settle to 20
12.168 @ 111.81 1.655 5500 launch. still spinning.
12.023 @ 113.02 1.700 5500 launch. spun hard, early 1-2 shift. hammered rest of gear changes out of frustration
12.156 @ 113.09 1.727 5250 launch. WTF! spun. I even tried doing a burnout, but I think I didn't get all the water off.

Let my buddy Utah drive the car for a couple runs, he goes:
12.342 @ 111.98 1.719 Utah is a little rusty and lets off in first gear..."who knows" 1-2 lift shift.
12.15X @ 108 1.6xx Utah has the slip. decent 60' and good 1/8 mile. missfiring in 4th gear...suspect we are out of gas

I make one more pass:
12.828 @ 83mph 1.611 I dropped the launch rpm to 5000 and slipped the clutch alot off the line and it came out smooth but kinda weak. started popping in 3rd, so I let out. Definatly out of gas.

So, as you can imagine, Im not happy with a 12.02 when I was really expecting to nail an 11. Wed night BBQ at Island just has absolutely no track prep and I think I was the only car on slicks after 8pm. I might be double cursed as well, with the Phil Beers 12.0 14b curse and jinxing myself with the comment about that last 25lb from the stock drivers seat.

Seriously, I just couldn't put two and two together tonight. My best ET comes on nearly the worst 60'. Seemed lowering the launch rpm and tire pressure (had the tires at about 14psi on the first few runs and steadly airing down to 10psi on the last runs) wasn't helping enough as the track condition just went away. Overall, I feel like I was chasing my tail the whole time.

What I changed from last time (12.1 @ 111): I slacked off for the last few weeks and didn't work on anything, and planned to run on friday. But family stuff came up for friday, and it didn't rain today so I rushed to try and get the car ready to go tonight. I did all the stuff this morning:
7cm E3 turbine housing and the punishment 2.5" o2 housing bolted in this morning The E3-7cm & tube o2 housing was 5.2lb lighter than the 6cm/1g o2 housing! (10.4lb to 15.6lb)
Swapped in a different stock radiator, my last one had a crack in the upper end tank that would spit coolant.
found a little worn through spot on the boost controller vac line from being pinched by the intake pipe. Bent down the nipple on the WG actuator for clearance. That could explain a bit of the spikey boost response.
Swap on the hoosiers, drop the exhaust, and remove the passenger front, rear seats, and 2 baby seats. I just didn't have time today to make a bracket for the RCI race seat.
-38lb for exhaust system
-39lb pass front seat
-22lb top rear seat
-15lb bottom rear seat
-15lb baby seats out (7.4lb each X 2)
-05lb lighter turbine and o2 housing
-------------------------------
134lb total weight loss compared to the last time. If I had time to make the bracket...an RCI race seat would have saved another ~25lb (44.8lb stock driver sear - 19lb RCI seat)

What I said earlier on other message boards:

If for some reason the car runs 12.020 I'll be absolutely kicking myself for not getting this done earlier.

Yeah, I totally Jinxed myself!

I had wanted to try using the DS-Map software to control boost since it's adjustable at 500rpm intervalls...maybe could help holding higher boost past 6000rpm?
I had wanted to run one of the RCI race seats from my DSM...but needed to make a bracket
I had wanted to have the nitrous kit on as well, but it's probobly a good thing I didn't.

 

[forcefed86]

Oh, how annoyed and frustrated am I!

Get a smaller intercooler..... Just kidding!

Impressive stuff! how tall are those hoosiers? Got room for tiny bit taller tire?

Either way 11's are sure to come! Small tail wind, cooler temp, better air... you'd be there!

Is this with e85?

 

[habitatguy187]

^^^ Was this on race gas or e85?

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

Get a smaller intercooler..... Just kidding!

Impressive stuff! how tall are those hoosiers? Got room for tiny bit taller tire?

Either way 11's are sure to come! Small tail wind, cooler temp, better air... you'd be there!

Is this with e85?

If i recall hes not running hoosiers, but they are 26"!

EDIT: i take that back, but i bet hes running 24.5" hoosiers .

 

[Nate Crisman]

Im running 26x9.5x16" Hoosier Quick Time Pro tires mounted on stock 2g GST 16x7" wheels.

I drained the stock tank, put in 2 gallons of Sunoco 116 racegas at the track. (seems that's enough for 8 good runs before starting to suck air)

Air temps were exactly the same as last time...starting between 75 and 80*F at the line and ending up at 95* to 100*F at the end of 4th gear. Very very consistent, even when hot lapping.

Fedex stopped off a used air/water IC (FrozenBoost.com 14.5 x 5 x 4.5" barrel type) I picked up for $100 shipped. Figured that was cheap enough to justify experimenting with.


Anyway, I think the GVR4 is going to stand at 12.0 on the 14b. I'v got a 16g cartridge ready to go in anytime (takes like 25 min to swap cart since Im not running water lines). Im starting to assemble my yellow 1g this weekend and need that 14b back. So while going to the track on a sunday with a prepared track surface would likely net some 11's, I just think concentrating on getting my real 14b racecar going is more important. Specially since it's nearly June and the car is still a shell.

 

[SBstar]

Bummer you're not going to take the vr4 into the 11's on the 14b Nate. Would've been cool to see that done with the "big heavy 4 door".

Season's wasteing away and I'm still chasing my tail around the car, waiting on TB shaft seals.

 

[TSimage]

I'd be done with my Galant but everyone has been flaking on me as far as that front 344 mount goes.. Designated funds for the Galant are nearing their end and if I don't hold off soon it will start eating into my other projects.. sigh*

 

[Nate Crisman]

Bummer you're not going to take the vr4 into the 11's on the 14b Nate. Would've been cool to see that done with the "big heavy 4 door".

Season's wasteing away and I'm still chasing my tail around the car, waiting on TB shaft seals.

yeah, it kinda sucks, but honestly, I KNOW it was capable of an 11, I just couldn't put a good 60' together with the right tuning on that specific night considering it went 12.0 on a 1.7 On a sunday with a good track surface and starting with the 113mph tune/setup from the start Im sure I'd have a stack of 11.9 and 11.8's if I could consistently 60' in the 1.5's like it should.

And YES...the season is wasting away! That's exactly why I have to stop worrying about GVR4 where there is no chance of getting the overall 14b record and move all my effort into the project that might have a chance at it.

Ok, well the project has begun. Saturday I had a few buddies come over to help me out with some swapping and pushing.

• Ended up getting the front and rear subframes installed correctly along with a 4bolt rear diff.
• Spent some time removing all the oem fuel lines, fill hose, and fuel tank mounts since the car is going to run a 1gal fuel cell up in the front fender for max weight loss.
• Cleaned off and went over the rear shocks (GC coilovers on AGX shocks)...shocks are good, coilovers now adjust smoothly.
• The rear subframe came out of TK's car...all poly ES suspension bushings, Jay racing solid toe joints, and custom delrin subframe and mustache bar bushings. It's totally solid.
• The front subframe basically came out, cleaned, and went back in after checking the steering rack, wheel bearings, brakes, and bushings with everything checking out as usable.

Ill likely get the yellow 1g on the lift later this week. Then start building a motor/trans and putting them in toward the end of the week. I'd like to have the car running around maybe June 12-13 weekend in 3 weeks? I'v got 95% of the parts to do it, it's just a matter of effort and time now.

Few pics: Kinda sucks since it was all subframe & chassis work...nothing really looks different on exterior other than the wheel/tire swap. More pics soon.

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[Phil1320]

yeah, it kinda sucks, but honestly, I KNOW it was capable of an 11, I just couldn't put a good 60' together with the right tuning on that specific night considering it went 12.0 on a 1.7 On a sunday with a good track surface and starting with the 113mph tune/setup from the start Im sure I'd have a stack of 11.9 and 11.8's if I could consistently 60' in the 1.5's like it should.

And YES...the season is wasting away! That's exactly why I have to stop worrying about GVR4 where there is no chance of getting the overall 14b record and move all my effort into the project that might have a chance at it.

Ok, well the project has begun. Saturday I had a few buddies come over to help me out with some swapping and pushing.

• Ended up getting the front and rear subframes installed correctly along with a 4bolt rear diff.
• Spent some time removing all the oem fuel lines, fill hose, and fuel tank mounts since the car is going to run a 1gal fuel cell up in the front fender for max weight loss.
• Cleaned off and went over the rear shocks (GC coilovers on AGX shocks)...shocks are good, coilovers now adjust smoothly.
• The rear subframe came out of TK's car...all poly ES suspension bushings, Jay racing solid toe joints, and custom delrin subframe and mustache bar bushings. It's totally solid.
• The front subframe basically came out, cleaned, and went back in after checking the steering rack, wheel bearings, brakes, and bushings with everything checking out as usable.

Ill likely get the yellow 1g on the lift later this week. Then start building a motor/trans and putting them in toward the end of the week. I'd like to have the car running around maybe June 12-13 weekend in 3 weeks? I'v got 95% of the parts to do it, it's just a matter of effort and time now.

Few pics: Kinda sucks since it was all subframe & chassis work...nothing really looks different on exterior other than the wheel/tire swap. More pics soon.

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Great progress! Car looks great! Good luck! Can't wait to hear of your success.....

 

[Nate Crisman]

DSMlink V3 on the way. I picked up a second hand "but never used" kit for $400. Sell my Ostrich for $135: $265 investment to get the better datalogging system and the adjustable nitrous activation and secondary fuel maps. When I found out the software runs on Apple OSX I just about crapped my pants Im sold. now I don't need to use a crappy windows laptop nor a palm pilot anymore!

 

[Steve93Talon]

DSMlink V3 on the way. I picked up a second hand "but never used" kit for $400. Sell my Ostrich for $135: $265 investment to get the better datalogging system and the adjustable nitrous activation and secondary fuel maps. When I found out the software runs on Apple OSX I just about crapped my pants Im sold. now I don't need to use a crappy windows laptop nor a palm pilot anymore!

DSMlink on OSX has been around for awhile, V2 was done by a member, V3 is officially supported. Alot of people are having trouble with it on OSX 10.6 though, not sure if they've sorted it out yet.

On the subject of 14b times and your yellow car, I realized I still had the video up from the '05 NJ shootout. I spanked you hard with my 14b (I think you smoked the clutch on the launch)

NJ Shootout

 

[Nate Crisman]

DSMlink on OSX has been around for awhile, V2 was done by a member, V3 is officially supported. Alot of people are having trouble with it on OSX 10.6 though, not sure if they've sorted it out yet.

On the subject of 14b times and your yellow car, I realized I still had the video up from the '05 NJ shootout. I spanked you hard with my 14b (I think you smoked the clutch on the launch)

NJ Shootout

Yeah, that was the day that we found out an ACT2600/street disk will not hold back the torque from 150shot on top of a 130mph turbo setup.

I had got the nitrous hooked up that week, tested it at Island dragway on friday (ECSO was on sat I think) but didn't launch with the nitrous on...just activated in 3 and 4 gears. (went 10.2 @ 142 like that on friday night with 120 jets). I remember thinking i'd possibly get into the 9's at the ECSO by turning the nitrous on in 2nd gear and bumping the jetting to 150hp, but it smoked the clutch all way down the track on the first qualifying pass. I think the run against you was the second qualifier and the car literally didn't even move when I dropped the clutch. Wouldn't even limp into the trailer. Wore a street disk to the rivets in like 5 runs with the nitrous on.

I bet that setup made like 650ft-lb at the wheels with that much nitrous and 35psi of boost. a act2600 is rated for like 385-415ft-lb hahaha no chance. We put a 2900pp/6puck disk in it and even that slipped a bit in 4th gear once it got hot, we ended up with the "totally unmanageable" 3200/4puck insane clutch.

 

[GRAVEDIGGER]

Yeah, that was the day that we found out an ACT2600/street disk will not hold back the torque from 150shot on top of a 130mph turbo setup.

I had got the nitrous hooked up that week, tested it at Island dragway on friday (ECSO was on sat I think) but didn't launch with the nitrous on...just activated in 3 and 4 gears. (went 10.2 @ 142 like that on friday night with 120 jets). I remember thinking i'd possibly get into the 9's at the ECSO by turning the nitrous on in 2nd gear and bumping the jetting to 150hp, but it smoked the clutch all way down the track on the first qualifying pass. I think the run against you was the second qualifier and the car literally didn't even move when I dropped the clutch. Wouldn't even limp into the trailer. Wore a street disk to the rivets in like 5 runs with the nitrous on.

I bet that setup made like 650ft-lb at the wheels with that much nitrous and 35psi of boost. a act2600 is rated for like 385-415ft-lb hahaha no chance. We put a 2900pp/6puck disk in it and even that slipped a bit in 4th gear once it got hot, we ended up with the "totally unmanageable" 3200/4puck insane clutch.

Great story there Nate! A 3200/4 puck... WOW I bet that was something.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Great story there Nate! A 3200/4 puck... WOW I bet that was something.

It was pretty much a lightswitch and made the car damn near impossible to launch with my setup (drag radials, poor suspension setup, huge torque with nitrous on & no torque with nitrous off). Honestly my 60' times we consistent 1.50 to 1.55 on the 2600/street disk before the nitrous went on and the car would go 10.8 over and over @ 130.

With the nitrous on and that 3200/4puck, I would either bog to 1.8's or spin to 1.7's and often miss 2nd gear due to crazy wheelspin. The car also darted left/right and slid out in second when it would break traction when the ntirous came on. I really should have been running bias ply slicks and either a progressive or dual stage nitrous system. 150hp-180hp worth of nitrous is just too much to effectively use on radial tires in first and second gear. It was somewhat a waste trying to make clean passes like that.

 

[rhamlinii]

It was pretty much a lightswitch and made the car damn near impossible to launch with my setup (drag radials, poor suspension setup, huge torque with nitrous on & no torque with nitrous off). Honestly my 60' times we consistent 1.50 to 1.55 on the 2600/street disk before the nitrous went on and the car would go 10.8 over and over @ 130.

With the nitrous on and that 3200/4puck, I would either bog to 1.8's or spin to 1.7's and often miss 2nd gear due to crazy wheelspin. The car also darted left/right and slid out in second when it would break traction when the ntirous came on. I really should have been running bias ply slicks and either a progressive or dual stage nitrous system. 150hp-180hp worth of nitrous is just too much to effectively use on radial tires in first and second gear. It was somewhat a waste trying to make clean passes like that.

I'm using a 3200 with the newer sprung 6 puck disk. Other then stop in go traffic I love it. The secret is just slipping it just right. I can't do that with my friends 2600 with.solid disk.I hate driving his car.How did your car re-act when you sprayed that 60-1. Think of spraying this turd and I have that manifold?

 

[pneumo]

Stories like that make me thankful we have twin disc clutches now.

Hey Nate, going a little OT here, if we can't find the right front motor mount bracket for the Galant, would an AWD DSM front crossmember work with a DSM motor mount bracket on the Galant body? Thanks for any info.

 

[TSimage]

Nate I heard you have one?

If so please PM me and let me know how much it'll cost me to get it donated to the 14b cause!

 

[Steve93Talon]

Back on the 14b topic, I'm building a gutted FWD 14b setup, Goodwill style. I'm looking to keep it simple, meaning no cage (unless I get to the point where I need it), no fuel cell, etc. I'm looking for input from everyone on what you'd like to see as far as supporting mods.

My previous '93 AWD setup that ran 12.1 had a stock 6 bolt bottom end with 2G pistons, stock head, stock intake mani, and HKS 272s. I was also on a Dejon SMIC. I would have loved to dyno and run the car back to back with stock cams vs the 272s to see if they helped or hurt. From looking at my dyno graph, the car spooled pretty late for a 14b setup, and still fell off a cliff over 6k.

I have always speculated that milder, or even stock cams, might have helped. This time around, I'd like to test a few different combos to find out. I'm starting out with a 9:1 built bottom end and stock 1G head/intake/cams. From there I may swap in a set of HKS 272s so I can get the back to back numbers I wanted from last time. Any other thoughts on the ideal cams for a 14b?

I also have a mint 2G head I'd like to swap in. I have been looking for an EVO3 intake manifold to use with it (anyone got one?). I think that combo would really be beneficial to a 14b setup. I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on what their ultimate small turbo parts combo would be.

 

[SBstar]

^ Read entire thread...seriously.

We've pretty much beat the topic to death now, until people start getting out and putting down numbers, we really won't be sure what is the most beneficial beyond what we already know. The 2g head/Evo III intake mani sounds like a great setup, but we haven't seen anyone do much with it yet in the 14b realm. Personally I think the key ingredients include weight loss, strong motor, stronger launch.