The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[GRNDSM]

I do not think that you realize just how ironic you are being suggesting that I do not know about rust . I am from New England, one of the worst areas when it comes to road salt usage (due to climate and population density), so we know all about rust! And around here, I am known as being rust enemy #1!

What you have to realize is that by the time you see rust spots, as seen on that Expo, that is only the tip of the iceberg! That means that this car is thoroughly contaminated by rust! It becomes a real problem when this rust weakens car's structure and suspension attachment points! You can try chasing these rust spots by cutting them out and welding-in new metal, but that is a band-aid approach. It would be a considerable effort and will not last very long.

Unfortunately, that Expo is nothing more than a (mechanical) parts car . IMO, investing major time into making it 4G63 powered would be a waste.

If you want your wagon looking like even more of a $hitbox than it already is, leave the fading paint on it! That is what I am planning on doing, at least for now

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

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Lol, shes almost ready .

 

[Gooberlog]

I love the tag!!!!

 

[SBstar]

Awesome plate! I'm "almost done" as well, unfortunately I've been too busy to finish up the break-in miles lately. But I'm about one days worth of a short drive away from changing the oil and having her ready to hit the track. I'm going to have to port out the OFH as my oil pressures are sky high if I take her into any rpms over cruising, after that I'm golden.

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

Lol thanks guys, it wasnt my first choice but they wouldnt let me get "ITSSTOCK" because it was 8 characters. I currently have 210miles on my new engine and i just picked up 11gallons of e85 today so i should be opening her up thursday or friday .

 

[Mr Peepers]

Awesome times again Pneumo and Phil, always been a huge fan and still extremely impressed. Mid 11's on stock injectors, smic, and misc piping still blows my mind. Same to everyone else running 14b's for all they're worth.

I'll hopefully be visiting the track again sometime with the 14b back on. Last year was frustrating with [email protected] my first 14b pass then never quite being able to hit another 1.6 60'. Since then I've put a fmic on, freshened up the trans (many thanks to Tim Zimmer) and gotten Ostrich so I can actually tune the car on Jackal pretty soon here. Anyway, just excited to hit to track and see if I can hit 11's with the 14b and call it a year.

 

[Gooberlog]

Awesome plate! I'm "almost done" as well, unfortunately I've been too busy to finish up the break-in miles lately. But I'm about one days worth of a short drive away from changing the oil and having her ready to hit the track. I'm going to have to port out the OFH as my oil pressures are sky high if I take her into any rpms over cruising, after that I'm golden.

Where does the gauge on the stock oil pressure gauge go to?

 

[forcefed86]

Awesome times again Pneumo and Phil, always been a huge fan and still extremely impressed. Mid 11's on stock injectors, smic, and misc piping still blows my mind. Same to everyone else running 14b's for all they're worth.

I'll hopefully be visiting the track again sometime with the 14b back on. Last year was frustrating with [email protected] my first 14b pass then never quite being able to hit another 1.6 60'. Since then I've put a fmic on, freshened up the trans (many thanks to Tim Zimmer) and gotten Ostrich so I can actually tune the car on Jackal pretty soon here. Anyway, just excited to hit to track and see if I can hit 11's with the 14b and call it a year.

Not that I'm any sort of 14b specialist, but theres a reason the fast guys keep the small SMIC on a small turbo. IMHO, a 14B will get lost in a large FMIC. Match the max CFM of the turbo to the IC for the best results in spool time . It's all about the 60' and 1/8th mile times with the the 14b record holders.

Where does the gauge on the stock oil pressure gauge go to?

Down on the oil filter housing is the sending unit for tha gauge. I'd throw a mechanical gauge on there and double check. High oil pressure is good. I wouldn't sweat it. Run a good low weight race oil and call it a done deal.

 

[SBstar]

I'm running a little more clearance in the bearings, therefore I'm using a 20w50 oil. I'm hitting just shy of 90psi at cruise (around 3k or so) currently, it's not going to hurt to get it a little lower, I'm not planning on going crazy with the porting. I've done my research on it and most are agreeing that it's too high. I'm also not relying on the stock gauge.

 

[Gooberlog]

Not that I'm any sort of 14b specialist...
...Down on the oil filter housing is the sending unit for tha gauge. I'd throw a mechanical gauge on there and double check. High oil pressure is good.

Yeah i know where the sending unit is. I've had to plug it back in on my hands and knees countless times when it went dead. I was asking SBstar where on his gauge the needle was, making him think he had high oil pressure, or at what psi on an aftermarket one.

<--------Check out my join date, this isn't my first rodeo

 

[Nate Crisman]

Not that I'm any sort of 14b specialist, but theres a reason the fast guys keep the small SMIC on a small turbo. IMHO, a 14B will get lost in a large FMIC. Match the max CFM of the turbo to the IC for the best results in spool time . It's all about the 60' and 1/8th mile times with the the 14b record holders.

Hold the phone WTF

Who are these "fast guys" going mid 11's on a 14b with stock sidemount?

Phil: Evo8 fmic (the only recent mid 11 sec 14b car)
Dave: ETS fmic with shortroute pipes (highest mph awd 14b)
Joe Bucci: fmic for start, then air/water ic (current 14b record holder)
Leon: I know he had a big fmic "back in the day"

I completely disagree that having a small intercooler helps at all in any way/shape/form at the dragstrip. you have less heat sink material to absorb heat and more pressure drop across the core. Both are BAD for power production. I suggest the largest intercooler you can possibly run, I think the garret 24"x12"x4" would be ideal, it's the best performing intercooler Iv ever tested. I would bet it will absorb the most heat regardless of if there is a 14b or a GT35R pushing hot air into it. It will also have the least pressure drop across the core, so every psi your little 14b can make will end up at the intake manifold.

Spool time on a 14b is nearly instantaneous, enough to be a moot point. I know my 14b car leaves at about 16psi on the studderbox and never drops below 20psi since all the gear changes are nlts. Spool time should have just about nothing to do with 60', the launch is mostly rotating weight inertia, clutch engagement, and tire traction.

If you have some data, dragstrip test, or dyno test to show someone with a "small turbo" switching from a large and efficient intercooler to a smaller volume and less efficient intercooler and GAINING power overall; I would love to see it.

 

[FonZ454]

Agreed.

Fat core is key.

 

[Gooberlog]

It's hard to imagine, but even with a small turbo like the 14b, it still flows more than enough for quick spool up on a FMIC. I have the Punishment Racing FMIC short route 8" kit with "fairly large" 2.5" intercooler piping, and the 14B fills that core and piping just as quick as it did with the small stock piping and a small side mount. Maybe the difference would be a lot more noticeable at lower or close to stock boost levels, but hey, this IS "The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread" right?

 

[toofast82]

It's hard to imagine, but even with a small turbo like the 14b, it still flows more than enough for quick spool up on a FMIC. I have the Punishment Racing FMIC short route 8" kit with "fairly large" 2.5" intercooler piping, and the 14B fills that core and piping just as quick as it did with the small stock piping and a small side mount.

I actually ran a pretty big core and long route piping on a 14b/7cm and it still spooled up very fast

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

Stock sidemount FTMFW!

 

[forcefed86]

Hold the phone WTF

Who are these "fast guys" going mid 11's on a 14b with stock sidemount?

Phil: Evo8 fmic (the only recent mid 11 sec 14b car)
Dave: ETS fmic with shortroute pipes (highest mph awd 14b)
Joe Bucci: fmic for start, then air/water ic (current 14b record holder)
Leon: I know he had a big fmic "back in the day"

I completely disagree that having a small intercooler helps at all in any way/shape/form at the dragstrip. you have less heat sink material to absorb heat and more pressure drop across the core. Both are BAD for power production. I suggest the largest intercooler you can possibly run, I think the garret 24"x12"x4" would be ideal, it's the best performing intercooler Iv ever tested. I would bet it will absorb the most heat regardless of if there is a 14b or a GT35R pushing hot air into it. It will also have the least pressure drop across the core, so every psi your little 14b can make will end up at the intake manifold.

Spool time on a 14b is nearly instantaneous, enough to be a moot point. I know my 14b car leaves at about 16psi on the studderbox and never drops below 20psi since all the gear changes are nlts. Spool time should have just about nothing to do with 60', the launch is mostly rotating weight inertia, clutch engagement, and tire traction.

If you have some data, dragstrip test, or dyno test to show someone with a "small turbo" switching from a large and efficient intercooler to a smaller volume and less efficient intercooler and GAINING power overall; I would love to see it.

I personally never said anything about less efficient or a stock SMIC?

I said a matching core. If a core is rated to the same CFM as the turbo it won't have more than a 2-3psi drop. I'm saying use a smaller efficient core over the massive 2200cfm bastards I see on most tiny turbo cars.

Something in a small water to air unit with chilled water would be best IMO. Heat soak would also be eliminated this way.

Similar to this unit...

Home » Shop » Forced Induction » Intercoolers » Liquid to Air Barrel » PWR 300 HP Liquid to Air barrel Intercooler 4x10


It's simple physics, esp. when using a manual car. It takes time to fill up the area/volume in an IC/piping. Especially when we all upgrade to 8 feet of 2.5"-3" piping.

You need to size the turbo to the engine, and the IC to the turbo to have an efficient setup. But you all aren't doing this.

Problem is the 14b guys are operating beyond the efficiency range of the 14B and trying to compensate with the large intercooler. So it makes sense why the large FMIC folks do better.

Switch any of those large FMIC setups to a smaller chilled water/air IC setup and I believe they will go slightly faster.

E85 cars allowed to compete for that record?

 

[TSimage]

Lets not put words in my mouth now...

Who said anything about less efficient? I said a matching core. I never said use the stock SMIC. If a core is rated to the same CFM as the turbo it won't have more than a 2-3psi drop. I'm saying use a smaller efficient core over the massive 2200cfm bastards I see on most tiny turbo cars. Something in a small water to air unit with chilled water would be best IMO. Heat soak would also be eliminated this way.

It's simple physics, esp. when using a manual car. It takes time to fill up the area/volume in an IC/piping. Especially when we all upgrade to 8 feet of 2.5"-3" piping.

You need to size the turbo to the engine, and the IC to the turbo to have an efficient setup. But you all aren't doing this.

Problem is the 14b guys are operating beyond the efficiency range of the 14B and trying to compensate with the large intercooler. So it makes sense why the large FMIC folks do better.

Switch any of those large FMIC setups to a smaller chilled water/air IC setup and I believe they will go slightly faster.

E85 cars allowed to compete for that record?






I personally never said anything about less efficient or a stock SMIC?

I said a matching core. If a core is rated to the same CFM as the turbo it won't have more than a 2-3psi drop. I'm saying use a smaller efficient core over the massive 2200cfm bastards I see on most tiny turbo cars.

Something in a small water to air unit with chilled water would be best IMO. Heat soak would also be eliminated this way.

Similar to this unit...

Home » Shop » Forced Induction » Intercoolers » Liquid to Air Barrel » PWR 300 HP Liquid to Air barrel Intercooler 4x10


It's simple physics, esp. when using a manual car. It takes time to fill up the area/volume in an IC/piping. Especially when we all upgrade to 8 feet of 2.5"-3" piping.

You need to size the turbo to the engine, and the IC to the turbo to have an efficient setup. But you all aren't doing this.

Problem is the 14b guys are operating beyond the efficiency range of the 14B and trying to compensate with the large intercooler. So it makes sense why the large FMIC folks do better.

Switch any of those large FMIC setups to a smaller chilled water/air IC setup and I believe they will go slightly faster.

E85 cars allowed to compete for that record?

Why wouldn't they?

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

Yeah any type of fuel is acceptable, just needs to be a 14b!

 

[pneumo]

I hit 11.69 on my 14b with stock injectors, stock cams, stock smic and stock ic pipes.
Then I installed FP2 cams, large injectors, smim, 24x12x3.5 fmic with 3" ic pipes and went 11.51 @118.

 

[91-gsx]

I hit 11.69 on my 14b with stock injectors, stock cams, stock smic and stock ic pipes.
Then I installed FP2 cams, large injectors, smim, 24x12x3.5 fmic with 3" ic pipes and went 11.51 @118.

Those are both amazing times. What was the MPH on the 11.69 run? What was the cars weight at the time?

 

[Nate Crisman]

I personally never said anything about less efficient or a stock SMIC?

I said a matching core. If a core is rated to the same CFM as the turbo it won't have more than a 2-3psi drop. I'm saying use a smaller efficient core over the massive 2200cfm bastards I see on most tiny turbo cars.

No actually what you said was:

Not that I'm any sort of 14b specialist, but theres a reason the fast guys keep the small SMIC on a small turbo.

Noone is running mid 11's on a small sidemount. All the fast 14b cars are running large FMIC cores. The fastest mph AWD 14B car even runs big 3" upper ic pipes. I would bet my car that Phil picks up significant power changing out his "small" stock Evo8 fmic for a giant volume garret 24x12x4 core. Are you saying that you believe running a larger intercooler results in a higher pressure drop than one "matched" to the same cfm as the turbo is rated?

Something in a small water to air unit with chilled water would be best IMO. Heat soak would also be eliminated this way.

It's simple physics, esp. when using a manual car. It takes time to fill up the area/volume in an IC/piping. Especially when we all upgrade to 8 feet of 2.5"-3" piping.

You need to size the turbo to the engine, and the IC to the turbo to have an efficient setup. But you all aren't doing this.

Problem is the 14b guys are operating beyond the efficiency range of the 14B and trying to compensate with the large intercooler. So it makes sense why the large FMIC folks do better.

Switch any of those large FMIC setups to a smaller chilled water/air IC setup and I believe they will go slightly faster.

Of course switching from any air/air intercooler to an air/water intercooler with an icewater resevoir is going to pick up power and go significantly faster. Incredible heat sink potential and less pressure drop across the core. Exactly the same reasons a "giant 2200cfm bastard" air/air fmic core picks up power over a small fmic and even more over any sidemount ic, none of it having to do with matching volume or CFM rating. And we make more power running a 14b completely off the map at low efficiency than we do running a 14b at low boost/high efficiency and matching it to a smaller intercooler. Where I think you are wrong is that going by your logic, a 14b car would run best with a relatively small air/water intercooler. I think we would run best with a giant large volume 2000CFM monster air/water intercooler behind the dashboard. I have never ever ever seen an instance where increasingly larger intercooler results in anything but more power and a faster car.

The volume of the intercooler system is mostly meaningless for dragracing. you could put 3" lower ic pipe and a 4" upper ic pipe and run them the longest route possible to a monsterous giant intercooler and the effective boost level going down the dragstrip will not change significantly. I'v gone ran a 14b car with all sorts of intercooler setups:
stock sidemount with short hard pipes
small fmic core with short route hard pipes
large fmic core with short route pipes
Im going to run without any intercooler at all and short hard pipes.

They all spool up pretty much the same when it comes to drag racing. We aren't inflating a hot air balloon here, we are pressurizing a relatively closed system and it happens nearly instantly. If you are driving the car correctly...leaving the starting line on boost and never closing the throttle or opening the bov, then time to pressurize the intake system is of absolutely no consequence other than the time it takes to get on boost at the starting line. The difference between the smallest possible induction tract (2" hotpipe to TB) and the largest realistic induction track (3" pipes, long route to giant fmic core) is moot.

 

[forcefed86]

No one is running mid 11's on a small side mount.

SMIC? FMIC? It's in the front of the car. Does it really matter where the thing is located. That's irrelevant. I'm saying match the IC core to the charger don't go any larger.

All the fast 14b cars are running large FMIC cores.

The current record holder doesn't have an FMIC, so that's not exactly true?

The fastest mph AWD 14B car even runs big 3" upper ic pipes. I would bet my car that Phil picks up significant power changing out his "small" stock Evo8 fmic for a giant volume garret 24x12x4 core.

Are we talking about peak HP and MPH here or fastest ET? I'd bet if "the fastest car" swapped to a small Air/water IC with piping matched to the TB size it would go just as fast if not faster.

Are you saying that you believe running a larger intercooler results in a higher pressure drop than one "matched" to the same cfm as the turbo is rated?

No, I'm saying the larger the core the longer it takes to fill and the "laggier" the setup will be, esp. between shifts.

I'm not saying your going to pick up a half second, but If your shooting for a record every tenth counts.

Of course switching from any air/air intercooler to an air/water intercooler with an ice water reservoir is going to pick up power and go significantly faster. Incredible heat sink potential and less pressure drop across the core. Exactly the same reasons a "giant 2200cfm bastard" air/air fmic core picks up power over a small fmic and even more over any side mount ic, none of it having to do with matching volume or CFM rating. And we make more power running a 14b completely off the map at low efficiency than we do running a 14b at low boost/high efficiency and matching it to a smaller intercooler. Where I think you are wrong is that going by your logic, a 14b car would run best with a relatively small air/water intercooler. I think we would run best with a giant large volume 2000CFM monster air/water intercooler behind the dashboard. I have never ever seen an instance where increasingly larger intercooler results in anything but more power and a faster car.

As I said, there in lies the problem. Your running a turbo so far out of it's range that it is making more heat than it is suppose to. This is why you need a mismatched IC to compensate for that. I'm just saying I think there are better ways to achieve the same cooling that 24x12x4 core provides.

The volume of the intercooler system is mostly meaningless for drag racing. you could put 3" lower ic pipe and a 4" upper ic pipe and run them the longest route possible to a monstrous giant intercooler and the effective boost level going down the drag strip will not change significantly. I've gone ran a 14b car with all sorts of intercooler setups:
stock side mount with short hard pipes
small fmic core with short route hard pipes
large fmic core with short route pipes
I'm going to run without any intercooler at all and short hard pipes.

They all spool up pretty much the same when it comes to drag racing. We aren't inflating a hot air balloon here, we are pressurizing a relatively closed system and it happens nearly instantly. If you are driving the car correctly...leaving the starting line on boost and never closing the throttle or opening the bov, then time to pressurize the intake system is of absolutely no consequence other than the time it takes to get on boost at the starting line. The difference between the smallest possible induction tract (2" hotpipe to TB) and the largest realistic induction track (3" pipes, long route to giant fmic core) is moot.

So your saying a 405cfm turbo (really less CFM at the levels your running it at) Will be able to fill up a large 24x12x4 IC and 3" piping just as quickly as a 4x10 barrel IC with 2.25" piping? With no difference in lag/spool time?
I have a hard time believing that.

In the 14B class, I'd think 100% methanol and no IC would be the way to go.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Ok..the first thing you said and I quoted it twice: "small smic" and "mid 11's" your statement is just wrong. None of the currently running fast cars are running anything either sidemounted nor small. Your trying to back away from this by twisting it around. None of the fast 14b cars have made any attempt at keeping the intercooler volume small, and the best running cars all have considerably large intercooler volume. Reality is not in line with your original statement.

Yes, I am saying that the larger core takes .005 seconds to fill and the small core takes .003 seconds to fill. Even if my numbers are off by a smidge it makes absolutely no difference. Why do you care about lag on shifts? DONT LIFT THE THROTTLE DONT OPEN THE BOV DONT LET THE BOOST DROP. Lag on a 14b is completely irrelevent.

Have you ever raced a 14b car? We are talking about nearly the smallest turbocharger for this car not a GT42. Even if you lift throttle on a shift, boost recovery to 20+ psi is instant. If you don't lift, you never ever have to worry about intercooler volume or recovery. Again MOOT POINT.

As far as air/water cores are concerned: The water ic Joe Buccie ran back in 2005 likely had a CFM rating higher than any of the air/air fmic cores the rest of us run. I agree that all of us currently running a large Air/Air fmic would run faster with a smaller air/water core, but I disagree with your assertion that volume and spoolup has anything to do with it. Less pressure drop and higher thermal efficiency is why there is a gain to be had. And the larger the air/water core the better the efficiency and the lower pressure drop. Bigger is ALWAYS better. Prove me wrong with data and real world examples, not guestimates.

We run the 14b out of the highest efficiency range because that is what works best. All that matters is the ET/MPH, not where the line goes on a compressor map.

Prove me wrong with data, not guestimates.


EDIT: Sorry if Im coming off as a jack-ass. I'm normally not the guy who goes off on rants, not sure why this rubbed me the wrong way.

So your saying a 405cfm turbo (really less CFM at the levels your running it at) Will be able to fill up a large 24x12x4 IC and 3" piping just as quickly as a 4x10 barrel IC with 2.25" piping? With no difference in lag/spool time?
I have a hard time believing that.

In the 14B class, I'd think 100% methanol and no IC would be the way to go.

Yes That's exactly what Im saying. I'm saying that in the real world even a dinky 14b can pressurize even the biggest volume intercooler system so quickly that it doesn't make any major difference at the dragstrip. Maybe it makes a tiny difference in on/off throttle situations? But the dragstrip is NOT an on/off throttle situation.

If you can drive well and have the car setup correctly..the throttle should be 100% to the floor from about 1 second before the green light till your 50 feet past the finish line with no exceptions. In reality the dinky 14b pressurizes even the largest intercooler and pipe system before you drop the clutch and never needs to recover or re-spool since you never let off....(save for the natural boost pressure tappering off as the engine outflows the compressor as rpm goes up).

I'll make an excell graph of boost pressure vs time for my last run at the track with a 14b and a 24x12x4" fmic and long routed 2.5" pipes to prove my point.

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[damage]

And here I always thought my 13.2@102 on a barely modified stock car was good! I was glad the dang car would even launch decently, windshield wipers scratching the glass all up going down the track.

 

[habitatguy187]

Nice graph! Someone has a lot of time on their hands.