The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[SBstar]

Took long enough, but that's the problem with using a friend's garage an hour and a half away! It's tough to find time to use the one vehicle in the family left to go work on the other. But it's home now, I'm going to hook up the link today and get the settings to stock, I'm sure they're all over the place from the previous owner. I'm holding off on installing the 2g maf and the extrude honed manifold until I get to the track once, I want to see what kind of gains I can make on them.

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

Had to order a new clutch since i just ripped the whole center piece out of mine... New engine has 134 miles on it. At 200 i will run her all out... e85 and lots of boost . Sadly i cant find any used 15x7 wheels so i might have to make some passes on street tires, but if the trap speed is close then ill be happy... for now .

Taking the car up to work tomorrow to fab some shit up (new exhaust and new intercooler piping). Um, not much more weight reduction can be done to the car, just expensive things now.

Going to start doing some body work on the car, things like making it more aerodynamic. Such as hacking up the rear bumper and getting some sheetmetal to cover the front bumper!

 

[habitatguy187]

^^^Pics!???

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

Pics of what? I cant really show much .

 

[Nate Crisman]

I finished the 14b instal last night in my gvr4, and my initial impression was ", the car is neutered". Even though it spools up WAY faster than the T3T4, the top end loss feels completely dead past 6000rpm. Granted, Im on the same tune that was for 26psi to redline and the 14b is dropping down to about 16psi I think (no logs yet), so Im sure I can feed in significantly more ignition timing at higher rpm. It also revs up so slow that I have a feeling Im going to shift it early out of instinct as the power drops off so hard.

On a good note: no smoke, no leaks, no real fitment issues. I had to go back to 3" intake pipe as I only had one coupler that was even close to fitting on a 2" 14B inlet, and I had to make a sleeve to take up some space as well.

Im planning to hit the track next week, possibly on wednesday and friday nights. Planning to work on the tuning this week.

 

[Phil1320]

Pics of what? I cant really show much .

Seriously? Ok, well, when are you going to be ready to hit the track?

I finished the 14b instal last night in my gvr4, and my initial impression was ", the car is neutered". Even though it spools up WAY faster than the T3T4, the top end loss feels completely dead past 6000rpm. Granted, Im on the same tune that was for 26psi to redline and the 14b is dropping down to about 16psi I think (no logs yet), so Im sure I can feed in significantly more ignition timing at higher rpm. It also revs up so slow that I have a feeling Im going to shift it early out of instinct as the power drops off so hard.

On a good note: no smoke, no leaks, no real fitment issues. I had to go back to 3" intake pipe as I only had one coupler that was even close to fitting on a 2" 14B inlet, and I had to make a sleeve to take up some space as well.

Im planning to hit the track next week, possibly on wednesday and friday nights. Planning to work on the tuning this week.

Cool, good luck!

Took long enough, but that's the problem with using a friend's garage an hour and a half away! It's tough to find time to use the one vehicle in the family left to go work on the other. But it's home now, I'm going to hook up the link today and get the settings to stock, I'm sure they're all over the place from the previous owner. I'm holding off on installing the 2g maf and the extrude honed manifold until I get to the track once, I want to see what kind of gains I can make on them.

Hey, at least it's almost ready for your first passes of the year

 

[Gooberlog]

I finished the 14b instal last night in my gvr4, and my initial impression was ", the car is neutered".

Even on race gas and 21 psi my car feels like this. My 14b car really only feels (quick) if you launch it from a stop. Then you feel the quick acceleration, even a car as light as Phil's, i doubt it would have that throw you back in your seat effect like a turbo putting down a lot more lbs/min could.

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

Um im heading on vacation tomorrow and ill be gone for 8 days. As soon as i get back im going to tow the car to the shop and finish it up. Fill her up with e85 and start doing some street tuning .

 

[Nate Crisman]

Im actually trying to figure out if the possibility exists to drive my gvr4 to the track, drain the pumpgas, put in 3-4 gallons of sunoco methanol and get a jump on a baseline tune for the DSM w/ 14b?

Gvr4 has a 255 walbro, -6 feed line, aeromotive reg, 750cc FIC injectors. I'm wondering if the capacity is there to run 20-22psi of boost on the 14b on straight meth without any mechanical changes.

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

^ i dont think you have enough pump or injector for straight meth!

 

[ziggo0]

I'm joining the 14b club here in a few...just picked one up for 100$, good exhaust side but the compressor is chewed up. Managed to find a good compressor wheel for 32 bux...that will be here next week hopefully. It will have a 7cm^2 exhaust housing ported to hell and back sooooooo I'm hoping this will be a nice turbo (over the shit ebay 16g that came with my car!).

 

[Nate Crisman]

^ i dont think you have enough pump or injector for straight meth!

after some tuning today: spiking to 23psi falling off to 19psi. timing from 14* to 19*. A/F is in the low 11's up to 6000rpm then falling to low 10's by 7000rpm. I never saw more than 61% duty cycle. Im running 40psi base fuel pressure.

I would guess when I lean out the 6000 to 7500range to get a 11.0 to 11.2 a/f the injector duty cycle will be in the mid 50% area.

Lucas English went like 125mph through an auto running as much boost as an E3 16g could make on a motor with upgraded cams. On a single 255 pump and 1000cc injectors. I think my setup will be lucky to go 112mph and make about 150hp less.

I think Im going to try it. Ill go wednesday, make a pass or two on pumpgas to get a baseline. Then drain the gasoline/put in methanol. Ill richen up my fuel map about 40%, lower the boost to an 18psi setting and work from there. Even if I run out of injector, I'll at least learn something and collect some interesting and possibly useful datalogs

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

i was seeing 120% idc with e85 with 680s and 37 base fuel pressure with a 14b at 24-25psi (idk my gauge only goes to 20 ). I now have 865cc injectors but i need to get a fuel pressure regulator!

 

[Nate Crisman]

I took #139 over to Island dragway tonight to meet up with a bunch of GVR4 guys and make some passes on my new "temporary" setup: a stock 14b turbo with 6cm turbine housing and 1g o2 housing (both very lightly ported).

Anyway..here's the setup. I estimate about 3080 to 3100 lb total weight. On hoosier QTP's. 2 gallons of 116 racegas.

12.921 @ 106.09 - 1.764 street pumpgas tune & boost level. 5000rpm launch = BOG Boost spike to 24 falling to 19psi at 6800rpm shift points. 17* - 19* timing. mid 10's AF. 85*F on line 99*F at trap.

12.334 @ 110.18 - 1.601 6500rpm studderbox. Boost spike 25psi fall to 20.5. Timing 19* to 22* 6500rpm shifts Low 11's AF

12.223 @ 110.50 - 1.582 Timing 21 - 23* Mid 11's AF Same boost & launch.

12.310 @ 110.63 - 1.643 same tune. tried to drop clutch faster = little more bog. AIT 75* on line up to 93* at trap.

12.169 @ 111.16 - 1.582 Boost turned up. spike 26.5 fall to 21psi. Same tune. AIT 76* line to 95 at trap. shifted 3-4 early at 6200.

12.424 @ 109.56 - 1.602 Hotlap style ...tried shifting at 7000rpm in every gear. it didn't like it at all. 82*F on line up to 102*F at trap. Hot motor/turbo/IC and past peak power = lost mph.

I was set to make one last run, but the lanes closed. I had bumped the launch rpm to 6900 and planned to rev out first to 7000 and shift rest at 6500. But I still think it would have maybe been another 12.1 or a 12.0X at best.

Stats for the 12.1 run: 4.961 330' - 7.729 @ 88.82 1/8mile - 10.142 1000'


I was really hoping for an 11.9, but damn I just couldn't get the car out of the hole any better. It seems like this combo just doesn't make any power past 6000rpm and wants to be shifted very early around 6200-6500rpm. That doesn't work out so well when you launch at nearly 7000rpm. It feels like I shift out of first so soon and am already way past peak power.

Things to improve: Maybe the 6cm housing and stock o2 housing? stock cams? I suppose I could have leaned it out another half point to 12.0AF. Maybe gone another degree or two of timing? Im really not sure why the 60' wasn't quite as good as I had hoped for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QGwVvOFG3c

 

[forcefed86]

I took #139 over to Island dragway tonight to meet up with a bunch of GVR4 guys and make some passes on my new "temporary" setup: a stock 14b turbo with 6cm turbine housing and 1g o2 housing (both very lightly ported).

Anyway..here's the setup. I estimate about 3080 to 3100 lb total weight. On hoosier QTP's. 2 gallons of 116 racegas.

12.921 @ 106.09 - 1.764 street pumpgas tune & boost level. 5000rpm launch = BOG Boost spike to 24 falling to 19psi at 6800rpm shift points. 17* - 19* timing. mid 10's AF. 85*F on line 99*F at trap.

12.334 @ 110.18 - 1.601 6500rpm studderbox. Boost spike 25psi fall to 20.5. Timing 19* to 22* 6500rpm shifts Low 11's AF

12.223 @ 110.50 - 1.582 Timing 21 - 23* Mid 11's AF Same boost & launch.

12.310 @ 110.63 - 1.643 same tune. tried to drop clutch faster = little more bog. AIT 75* on line up to 93* at trap.

12.169 @ 111.16 - 1.582 Boost turned up. spike 26.5 fall to 21psi. Same tune. AIT 76* line to 95 at trap. shifted 3-4 early at 6200.

12.424 @ 109.56 - 1.602 Hotlap style ...tried shifting at 7000rpm in every gear. it didn't like it at all. 82*F on line up to 102*F at trap. Hot motor/turbo/IC and past peak power = lost mph.

I was set to make one last run, but the lanes closed. I had bumped the launch rpm to 6900 and planned to rev out first to 7000 and shift rest at 6500. But I still think it would have maybe been another 12.1 or a 12.0X at best.

Stats for the 12.1 run: 4.961 330' - 7.729 @ 88.82 1/8mile - 10.142 1000'


I was really hoping for an 11.9, but damn I just couldn't get the car out of the hole any better. It seems like this combo just doesn't make any power past 6000rpm and wants to be shifted very early around 6200-6500rpm. That doesn't work out so well when you launch at nearly 7000rpm. It feels like I shift out of first so soon and am already way past peak power.

Things to improve: Maybe the 6cm housing and stock o2 housing? stock cams? I suppose I could have leaned it out another half point to 12.0AF. Maybe gone another degree or two of timing? Im really not sure why the 60' wasn't quite as good as I had hoped for.

YouTube - GVR4 #139 14B runs at Island Dragway

Great times none the less! How tall are your QTP's?

 

[Nate Crisman]

Great times none the less! How tall are your QTP's?

26" x 9.5" x 16" Quick Time Pro. I got the tires for "stupid cheap", one of them is chunked on the edge so they aren't worth much to sell imho. I know they are really too tall and I'd be better off with M&H 24" tires, but the $ investment between selling these and buying new slicks isn't worth the gain by my guestimate.

 

[Gooberlog]

Good job on the low 12 sec pass with the galant Nate.

 

[RedEyeBanDiT]

WOW QUICK TIMES! Do you have any weight reduction?

 

[Nate Crisman]

Ack. watching video frame by frame: Im spinning the tires pretty hard off the line. I can't believe I didn't really notice it last night at the track! Explains the slow 60' times for sure. Funny how it seems so obvious in hindsight, but at the track last night I would have sworn I was completely hooking up. The car still left pretty hard, it's not at all like spinning street tires where you just sit and go nowhere, but just wasn't quite as hard as it should have been. I was attributing the 60's being about a tenth slow to "early 1-2 shift & lack of power at high rpm". In reality I was simply spinning the tires.

When I had the bigger turbo, if I spun the tires on the launch it wouldn't hook up at all in first gear and as the power came up it would totally haze the tires. And if it was totally hooked up, it moved out to 1.48 to low 1.5's. But with this low power setup, it seems I can spin them initially and kinda "ride it out" and the tires hook up about 20' off the line and still go 1.58 to 1.60. listed to the squeel in the videos If it was 100% hooked up I should have been doing about a full tenth better 60'

Thinking about it last night, powerband just isn't a reasonable thought when it comes to the weak 60'. My talon in 2004 with 14b on the same dia tires, same total weight, same mph, same engine combo with stock cams and 14b...would consistently go 1.50 to 1.51 and 11.9 @ 111mph. Theres no reason this car can't do exactly the same or better.

I guess Im going to give it another shot in a couple week to try and get an 11.9

 

[pneumo]

Nice times, Nate! I think this puts you as the quickest GVR4 on a 14b! The 60' times are still very nice, but there's always room for improvement.

 

[RedEyeBanDiT]

Well I dont understand how you can get your stock turbo'd car to run such quick times. Especially in a 4 door.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Nice times, Nate! I think this puts you as the quickest GVR4 on a 14b! The 60' times are still very nice, but there's always room for improvement.

Yeah, I guess this is the GVR4 14b record for now, your helping out with the same thing out in CA right? someone doing a 14b GVR4? hows that going?

I think there is a solid .100 to .125 that can come off the 60' time, which "should" gain about 2 tenths up top, just about enough to get an 11.9 with the same power. Im going to see about swapping the turbine housing and o2 housing and reducing some weight for the next time out: leaving the street exhaust and seats at the shop, maybe see if I can stick one of my 16lb plastic RCI race seats from my DSM in there for a night.
-100lb. + 15hp -.100 on the 60' should add up to a significant improvement.

In Car video my buddy Utah made:
In-Car Nate's GVR4 on Vimeo

WOW QUICK TIMES! Do you have any weight reduction?

Well I dont understand how you can get your stock turbo'd car to run such quick times. Especially in a 4 door.

The car may be a 4dr, but it's still only 2850lb car. I'v done significant weight loss on it. GVR4s are roughly 250lb heavier than an AWD dsm "stock for stock", but have just as much or more stuff that can be removed. Getting a GVR4 to run quick is exactly the same method to make a DSM run quick...it's practically the same exact car.

My major weight loss:

• light weight slicks -17lb
• CF hood. -17lb
• aluminum crankpulley & flywheel
• light aluminum coilover shocks -24lb
• removed both metal bumper supports (100lb right there)
• removed AC..completely. the underdash box and wiring are gone too.
• removed cruise control and emissions stuff underhood
• removed ABS..completely! even the trigger rings are cut off.
• lots of misc brackets, heat shields, and hardware removed.
• Aluminum intake and ic pipes.
• all wiring harnesses were stripped down and unused wire/plugs cut out.
• 15lb lawnmower battery relocated to steering rack subframe. Short wires reduce weight.

My car still has full oem leather interior, power sunroof, power windows, door locks, alarm system, power mirrors. It looks externally and interior wise like a full weight everyday car. Actually these times were with 14lb worth of baby seats in the back as well....everyone who checks the car out always gets a laugh out of that so I left them in for kicks.

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[pneumo]

Yeah, I guess this is the GVR4 14b record for now, your helping out with the same thing out in CA right? someone doing a 14b GVR4? hows that going?

It's going slowly. I've been very busy keeping my 2 DSM's in one piece, so there's not much time leftover. I just hit a new best time yesterday, 10.1@ 143.4!

 

[Phil1320]

I'm joining the 14b club here in a few...just picked one up for 100$, good exhaust side but the compressor is chewed up. Managed to find a good compressor wheel for 32 bux...that will be here next week hopefully. It will have a 7cm^2 exhaust housing ported to hell and back sooooooo I'm hoping this will be a nice turbo (over the shit ebay 16g that came with my car!).

Welcome! Good luck!

"12.169 @ 111.16 - 1.582 "

Awesome stuff Nate! Soon to be 11 second stock turbo VR4!

 

[Nate Crisman]

Welcome! Good luck!

"12.169 @ 111.16 - 1.582 "

Awesome stuff Nate! Soon to be 11 second stock turbo VR4!

That's the plan. I picked up a small 16g with a good 7cm housing last week, so Im going to swap the turbine housing in first. With the forward facing ofh and alternator relocation, I think I can do it without disturbing any oil lines or the manifold. Then, assuming it can nail an 11 next time out, Ill swap the cartridge and get this 14b available for the talon.

I'm really liking this small turbo stuff again, guess I might as well sell off the T3T4 setup that I pulled off the GVR4.