The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[snakeyes711]

Snakeeys you could look in to a Meth Injection kit to fight your knock, but you may be able to tune it out like you're mentioning. What boost level do you run on the 14B and on what fuel?

Boost set at 16-18 psi

Using Shell 93, or Sunoco 93 with some STP oct. booster. I'm going to try backing the base timing down to 2* first before anything else.

 

[Phil1320]

Well at least I know my 5 spokes "only" weight 17.25 lbs apiece instead of 19-20 like I thought. Makes me feel a little better keeping them for now.

As for my update, the engine is in the bay and almost everything is hooked up, I had to source a banjo bolt for the oil cooler so the next time I'm over there it will be firing up. I also got hooked up with a 2g maf setup so that'll be going on the car once I get link setup. Once she's broken in the tracks should be opening and we'll get a new baseline for this year.

Not bad. You can always get superlight wheels later. So, you're almost ready to go. Will be nice to see you get out there with Trav and post some numbers!

 

[Nate Crisman]

I'm pretty sure I wrote it elsewhere, but: Extreme's talon ran the 15" Volks with a 24.5 slick at one point, I think they were M & H. Anyway, they weighed in at 24.8 on the shipping scale. So, if you went to that set up there's 40 lbs. of unsprung weight to your advantage.......HUGE. My slicks are off the car now obviously because I'm using the car as a garage anchor right now. If I can locate a scale I'll weigh mine for comparisons' sake.

yup. 40lb of rotating weight is worth like 3X the weight loss off the body/chassis. 40lb loss in tire/wheel could be worth maybe a tenth and 1mph at the end?

I could sell my QTP's for at most $400, likely less. New slicks are about $750
I could sell the 2g wheels for maybe $100... lightweight 15" wheels aren't cheap say $400 at bare minimum for a good used set. Im looking at a best case $600 investment.

$600: That's a brand new Evo3 16g right there, which is obviously worth a lot more than 1/10second and 1mph.

I know the QTP's in 16" are bigger and heavier than I need, but they fill into my lap stupid cheap. Going to a 24" slick would save a chunk of weight, maybe 3-4lb per tire. I just don't feel it's worth the cost involved yet. If a set of used slicks falls in my lap, then I'll swap to 15" for sure.

 

[Phil1320]

yup. 40lb of rotating weight is worth like 3X the weight loss off the body/chassis. 40lb loss in tire/wheel could be worth maybe a tenth and 1mph at the end?

I could sell my QTP's for at most $400, likely less. New slicks are about $750
I could sell the 2g wheels for maybe $100... lightweight 15" wheels aren't cheap say $400 at bare minimum for a good used set. Im looking at a best case $600 investment.

$600: That's a brand new Evo3 16g right there, which is obviously worth a lot more than 1/10second and 1mph.

I know the QTP's in 16" are bigger and heavier than I need, but they fill into my lap stupid cheap. Going to a 24" slick would save a chunk of weight, maybe 3-4lb per tire. I just don't feel it's worth the cost involved yet. If a set of used slicks falls in my lap, then I'll swap to 15" for sure.

I'm with you there. I'd buy the Evo 3 16g turbo too, in fact, I did

I'm sure you'll hook and book on the 16's with QTP's just fine

 

[SBstar]

It's tough to justify spending big money on mods like that in the 14b realm. But in the end it's going to be what seperates the top from the not I suppose.

I'm hoping ETS runs another black friday sale this coming year, going to be my big "winter" mod.

 

[Phil1320]

It's tough to justify spending big money on mods like that in the 14b realm. But in the end it's going to be what seperates the top from the not I suppose.

I'm hoping ETS runs another black friday sale this coming year, going to be my big "winter" mod.

Agreed. It will always be that every little bit of advantage that counts, especially in the weight department. I'm sure there's more power to be made out of 14b combinations with all of these alternative fuel considerations, cam choices, and of course some will tune better than others, but, I think the weight is most important with this small turbo. It seems that we may see the most power ever out of the 14b this year with some of the more elaborate set ups I've been reading about.

I know what you mean about the "big money" spending in the 14b realm. But, I think the superlight wheels might be a more noticable contribution on a 14b car rather than on a big HP car where it may be masked a bit.

I'm sure ETS will run something......I still need an FMIC too.....

 

[pneumo]

I agree up to a point. Whoever builds a 14b contender still needs to weed out the useless mods that look good but don't add much power, like COP. A 14b builder on a strict budget really needs to focus on the right mods.

 

[Phil1320]

I agree up to a point. Whoever builds a 14b contender still needs to weed out the useless mods that look good but don't add much power, like COP. A 14b builder on a strict budget really needs to focus on the right mods.

I agree there are plenty of mods that do little or nothing at all. COP has never been a consideration of mine....cleans up the engine bay and like you said looks good.

Even with all these variable set-ups that people talk of up here, and you've gone to.....I still think there's got to be a plateau with making power on the 14B on the immediate horizon. Short of using NOS. Maybe I'm wrong. But, let's say I'm right. Hypothetically, all the set-ups are exhausted and dyno numbers have peaked. Once that happens, the only way to go quicker is to reduce weight.

I did the opposite of all my local DSMr's. They bolted on turbos. I started pulling weight out. I was still quicker than most 16g cars and even handed a few 20g cars some losses. At that time I still had my stock fuel pump in the car.

Obviously, a strong running 14b car is key, but I think not being paired with extreme light weight will definitely hold the potential back.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Agree with both of you. Dave's correct in that a big portion of this project is picking and choosing your mods to fit your budget, skipping the least cost efficient parts. This is arguably the biggest thing because everyone of us is on a real budget, and most of us are scrimping hard.

There is absolutely no chance of attaining or even getting close to the 14b records without some extreme weight loss. I'v said it before, but I think an AWD 1G is going to have to weight under 2600lb with driver to even have a chance at getting the record with a 1.3 60' and "equal or better" power than PGW.

Phil has made the point that 1B power output is the main limiting factor (without nitrous). While I think there is still some significant power left on the table yet, there is no way the 20-30hp that I have in my mind will make up the difference between a stock 3000lb 1g awd and a 2100lb Project Goodwill.

Anyway....here's my spreadsheet to figure out weight loss #'s. Im going off the last known weight on the car from a post I made in mid 2005, saying the car was 2780 at the time with me on the Etown scale. I likely had about 3-4 gallons of racegas, no nitrous bottle, I was about 225 then, and was running an Evo3 cast exh manifold, PTE bolt on GT35R.

http://dsmpartout.com/pics/Talon/talon2010weight.pdf

If I can get everything done except the lexan windows, I should be 2530. the lexan hatch is one of the large weights Im not really sure is accurate.

 

[forcefed86]

Boost set at 16-18 psi

Using Shell 93, or Sunoco 93 with some STP oct. booster. I'm going to try backing the base timing down to 2* first before anything else.

I run e30 in my car and had to add close to 30% fuel (per SAFC) to my maps to keep my AFR in check. I wouldn't suggest 40% mix of e85 anyway.

STP and other such octane boosters are crap IMO. If anything they cause a hotter burn and more knock with my experiance.

Stop by any local paint store and get yourself a gallon of toluene to xylene. Mix that gallon in with a 1/4 tank or so. If you do a search it's very common, just read up on it a little.

As far a a 2g MAF goes. Just buy a 2.5" 45* alum intake pipe. (paid $15) and it was powder coated black. From here...

http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchan...Product_Code=PIP250-BLK-45&Category_Code=PIPE

Cut the top of the 2g intake off and hose clamp it on the pipe. This is a really tight fit I used a heat gun and soapy water.

Like so... only mine ended up being very short. like 6" total.

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[habitatguy187]

I wouldn't suggest 40% mix of e85 anyway.

Why not? e85 requires ~50% more fuel, throw in a 40% mix of that and you're down to it needing 20% more fuel for it to reach stock settings. The fuel trims can make up for any problems during idle/cruise, but here's where it gets fun.


Tom from ecmlink said that the 1g target afr during a wot pull is 9.1:1! Take away 20% of the fuel that you "won't be getting" due to the e85 mix and that puts your afr at 10.92:1, which is even lower than what most guys shoot for on pump gas. You could run a much higher mix and still be safe if you have something to tune the fuel trims with. Our cars are soooo pig rich under boost it's silly.

 

[forcefed86]

Why not? e85 requires ~50% more fuel, throw in a 40% mix of that and you're down to it needing 20% more fuel for it to reach stock settings. The fuel trims can make up for any problems during idle/cruise, but here's where it gets fun.


Tom from ecmlink said that the 1g target afr during a wot pull is 9.1:1! Take away 20% of the fuel that you "won't be getting" due to the e85 mix and that puts your afr at 10.92:1, which is even lower than what most guys shoot for on pump gas. You could run a much higher mix and still be safe if you have something to tune the fuel trims with. Our cars are soooo pig rich under boost it's silly.

My fault I was relating to personal experience. Anything much over 30% e85 and my 750cc injectors were close to maxed.

I suppose since he’s not making that much power with the 14b he could get away with it. I wasn’t thinking about that, he would probably be fine.

Either way, you won’t lean the car out with toluene/xylene. And you shouldn’t have to drive far to get it. Home Depot carries 1 gal. jugs of xylene last I checked.

 

[habitatguy187]

My fault I was relating to personal experience. Anything much over 30% e85 and my 750cc injectors were close to maxed.

I suppose since he's not making that much power with the 14b he could get away with it. I wasn't thinking about that, he would probably be fine.

Either way, you won't lean the car out with toluene/xylene. And you shouldn't have to drive far to get it. Home Depot carries 1 gal. jugs of xylene last I checked.

I'm not accusing you of anything since I'll take real-world results over math anyday. However I've been running a 50/50 mix of e85 on my 550s and 20g at 24 psi for quite some time now, also member on here jrohner dyno'd over 400hp using a 16g, straight e85, and 750s.

But snakeyes, every car is different, and just cause the math works out or someone else can do it just fine doesn't mean that you should just jump into it, I kinda made it sound that way and I'm sorry.




Forcefed how much is a gallon of this xylene you speak of?

 

[snakeyes711]

As far a a 2g MAF goes. Just buy a 2.5" 45* alum intake pipe. (paid $15) and it was powder coated black. From here...

cxracing.com: 2.5" Aluminum Pipe 45 Degree Bend, Powder Coated, Mandrel Bent, 2.0mm Thick, 18" Length

Cut the top of the 2g intake off and hose clamp it on the pipe. This is a really tight fit I used a heat gun and soapy water.

Like so... only mine ended up being very short. like 6" total.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I don't get what you mean by cutting the top off the 2g intake?

Tom from ecmlink said that the 1g target afr during a wot pull is 9.1:1! Take away 20% of the fuel that you "won't be getting" due to the e85 mix and that puts your afr at 10.92:1, which is even lower than what most guys shoot for on pump gas. You could run a much higher mix and still be safe if you have something to tune the fuel trims with. Our cars are soooo pig rich under boost it's silly.

Are you saying that I got my 1g target AFR to 11.6:1, I need to go change that. I'm going to go try 10.5:1 BTW there was a guy at the local track who said his talon ran best around 12:1, and 10* of base timing.

Also does reseting the ecu change your base timing?

 

[Phil1320]

"Hypothetically, all the set-ups are exhausted and dyno numbers have peaked. Once that happens, the only way to go quicker is to reduce weight."

-Me

Just read back over this.......reducing weight might not be the only way to go quicker as there's always improvements in driving as well. But, even that can plateau.....

 

[forcefed86]

I don't get what you mean by cutting the top off the 2g intake?

Can you not see the pic I posted? Just cut the top of an OEM 2g MAF pipe off and hose clamp it to a larger diameter pipe. 2.5" is the largest I would go.

Are you saying that I got my 1g target AFR to 11.6:1, I need to go change that. I'm going to go try 10.5:1 BTW there was a guy at the local track who said his talon ran best around 12:1, and 10* of base timing.

Also does reseting the ecu change your base timing?

Don't listen to everyone you hear at the track... Good way to blow an engine. The factory timing map is plenty high with the stock setting of 5* base. Unless your running e85,race gas, or meth injection. I'd retard the base a few degrees if anything.

The ECU always thinks it's at 5* base, then has X amount of adjustment fore and aft to try to bring the timing to the factory tables. To set timing follow procedures in link below.

Visual Frequently Answered Questions - Home Page

Although every car is different, most have found pump gas setups like the low 11.0-11.3 range with around 17* total timing. I'd get a chip that is calibrated for your new larger injectors and MAF, eliminated fuel cut, changed your AFR's to the proper level and cut back on timing. (dsmchips.com).

 

[snakeyes711]

Can you not see the pic I posted? Just cut the top of an OEM 2g MAF pipe off and hose clamp it to a larger diameter pipe. 2.5" is the largest I would go.




Don't listen to everyone you hear at the track... Good way to blow an engine. The factory timing map is plenty high with the stock setting of 5* base. Unless your running e85,race gas, or meth injection. I'd retard the base a few degrees if anything.

The ECU always thinks it's at 5* base, then has X amount of adjustment fore and aft to try to bring the timing to the factory tables. To set timing follow procedures in link below.

Visual Frequently Answered Questions - Home Page

Although every car is different, most have found pump gas setups like the low 11.0-11.3 range with around 17* total timing. I'd get a chip that is calibrated for your new larger injectors and MAF, eliminated fuel cut, changed your AFR's to the proper level and cut back on timing. (dsmchips.com).

Didn't you see where I edited that post?

I got the timing set at 5* base. The thing is I was knocking high in the rpms with the 450's, now I got 560's, my IDC is more at 75%. However the knock is still there, even more I think. Maybe from the added timing, I set the timing to 0* base, and did a run with zero knock to red line, funny. (Even though there was significantly less power), I set the base at 4*, I guess thats what it'll have to be, I also got the knock lower by lowering the AFR to 10.8:1-11:1

Maybe I can try a leaner mix, lower, and richen it up as the rpms go up? I going to lowes. BTW how, and when will your base time setting reset or will it?

 

[Phil1320]

Agree with both of you. Dave's correct in that a big portion of this project is picking and choosing your mods to fit your budget, skipping the least cost efficient parts. This is arguably the biggest thing because everyone of us is on a real budget, and most of us are scrimping hard.

There is absolutely no chance of attaining or even getting close to the 14b records without some extreme weight loss. I'v said it before, but I think an AWD 1G is going to have to weight under 2600lb with driver to even have a chance at getting the record with a 1.3 60' and "equal or better" power than PGW.

Phil has made the point that 1B power output is the main limiting factor (without nitrous). While I think there is still some significant power left on the table yet, there is no way the 20-30hp that I have in my mind will make up the difference between a stock 3000lb 1g awd and a 2100lb Project Goodwill.

Anyway....here's my spreadsheet to figure out weight loss #'s. QUOTE]

Budget is a big factor. I mean, I could throw some big $ at the project, but it just isn't the way I want to tackle running quicker. I like the gradual process, and chipping away.

Pretty good weight reduction list there.....

Some of the things on your list I still have to do actually.

Last time I checked, my car was pulling about 6.6 lbs. per HP

Power to weight is the key ultimately. I'm looking for 5 lbs. per HP and that should be the ticket.

 

[Nate Crisman]

My galant went back to 14B turbo today, I should hopefully be finished up tonight. The car has been smoking for a couple weeks now on boost, and the turbo has some significant up/down shaft play. Sucks, the only turbo I have on hand is the 14b I bought to use on the yellow 1g, but I really need the gvr4 for transportation.

But I guess I can use this as an opportunity to learn a little more in prep for running a dinky turbo on the racecar this summer, collect some datalogs, and try out a few things. I guess I'm going to run at Island on Apr 23rd, next friday for a GalantVR4 meet...see if I can beat the 12.3 14b/galant record:icon_question: Should be interesting to see what the air temp and boost curve looks like.


Just need to finish up the basic re-assembly tonight, shorten the lower ic pipe to fit, and re-do the vac lines to the boost controller. I used a 6cm turbine housing with just a little bit of portwork on the inlet. (metal was SUPER hard, nearly impossible to port). Shimmed the actuator for a little preload. Basic ported 1g o2 housing I had laying around. My feelings are this is only temporary until I can find a good used 16G to swap in..then 14b can go on the talon.


Some pics:

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[Phil1320]

Awesome Nate! That will be a cool goal to beat! 12.2 or bust! Good luck!

 

[habitatguy187]

Any reason in particular for the 6cm housing?

 

[Nate Crisman]

Any reason in particular for the 6cm housing?

It's all I had that would work quickly. There were two 7cm housings in the shop: one old style 7cm was setup for external gate on o2 housing with no flapper, and the evo3 housing had two stripped holes that need nut/bolt assembly that I didn't feel llike dealing with right now. Remeber this isn't a performance build, it is a temporary fix. I'll try to run it as well as I can at the track, but getting the car running asap is more important than worrying about ideal porting. The way it is now, I can easily just swap a ported Evo3 16G and aftermarket o2 housing on when I find one used for sale and not have to deal with anything unusual.

 

[SBstar]

The DSM is back home! Drove her home tonight, had to drive like a maniac since it's on break-in time Approximately 425 miles more and I'll believe in her enough to get to the drag strip, I'm hoping I can find time to put in those break-in miles quickly. Such a relief to be driving it again. Hopefully we'll be posting up new 14b times shortly.

 

[Phil1320]

The DSM is back home! Drove her home tonight, had to drive like a maniac since it's on break-in time Approximately 425 miles more and I'll believe in her enough to get to the drag strip, I'm hoping I can find time to put in those break-in miles quickly. Such a relief to be driving it again. Hopefully we'll be posting up new 14b times shortly.

Awesome! That's great! Can't wait to hear how you do.

 

[Gooberlog]

Good job Shane, I'm glad you're finally rounding third base!