The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[SBstar]

Congrats Shane! That's a lot of ET for that mph. You're definitely doing a really good job with the power you have.

Thanks Kevin! That 60' was unreal, and obviously a huge part of why it did that well. I'm convinced that's not the best it can 60' though.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Equally impressive is the 1.42 60'. And some were saying 1.3x on 14b isn't possible. You're damn close.

I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that stopped dreaming long enough to even suggest a 60 foot limit for a 14b, but I never said it wasn't possible. If you go back 2+ years to posts 1425 and 1437 I did say it's highly unlikely though, and I still believe it is. Shane is very close, but he's also clearly launching with everything the car has, with slicks and a launch rpm above his shift rpm. 1.3s on a 14b at 2500 lbs are mathematically improbable based on some quick estimates I did 2 years ago, but not impossible. As I said back then, I hope someone does it.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Thanks Kevin! That 60' was unreal, and obviously a huge part of why it did that well. I'm convinced that's not the best it can 60' though.

That's the spirit. What do you think you can improve on for the 60 foot? Was there a lot of wheel spin? You've got to be close to the power to weight limit, but there are always other little tips and tricks that can add up.

 

[SBstar]

Well, it's tough to say what happened because it went by so fast. I do believe I spun though. I haven't even began to play with suspension adjustments though. I am not preloading which is supposed to help. And I still believe the car can make more power/torque. I just can't believe my second launch on slicks is as good as it can get.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I just can't believe my second launch on slicks is as good as it can get.

That can be tough to get used to. My car always runs it's best within 2 or 3 passes of a major setup change. It's pretty annoying, but it just means you're doing things right and you don't have to make 50 passes waiting for that ringer where everything happens to go perfectly. You guys at the top of the list are doing an awesome job. At that level, all of the low hanging fruit has been picked. Each tenth gets exponentially harder to get.

I'm sure there is room for improvement, but consider this. Let's say you drop that 1.42 to the magic 1.39. Is it repeatable? What does that ultimately do for ET? I'd expect a half a tenth from it. From that perspective, determine how much effort that particular gain is worth. When you're 99% of the way to the "ideal" 60 foot for your power:weight, you probably stand to gain more ET by focusing on other areas. That was my main point when I first brought this up.

I finally found a 14b for my car, but I'll be living vicariously through you and Justin for a while yet, so keep working the ET down and kicking ass.

 

[SBstar]

I totally understand what you're saying, the magical 1.3? 60' isn't going to be a main goal, just something that I think of as possible. I also think 10.?? is possible for an awd. I'm not exactly close to either currently, but the closer you get the easier it is to believe in. This car can lose a lot more weight, even with the addition of a roll bar. It's running a 2g maf on Link v2.5, a crappy intake setup, a nearly stock 2g exhaust manifold, no dial in on the cams, a 200K plus mile stock 7.8:1 6 bolt block, unported head with old valves and seals on 14 out of 16, a street/strip fmic, etc. There's just so much more that could be done. It might not be a big gain, but 10-20 hp at this level is actually pretty big! And let's not mention that I'm doing my own tuning and I am very far away from proficient at it. I'm not saying I'll address all those things, but there's a lot more on the table.

 

[Phil1320]

Just cause you asked

1. Joe Bucci 10.876 @ 123.83 FWD
2. Justin Aichele 11.036 @ 125.59 FWD
3. Shane Webster 11.300 @ 117.16 AWD
4. Nate Crisman 11.377 @ 116.63 AWD
5. Phil Beers 11.497 @ 113.85 AWD
6. David Womer 11.514 @ 118.13 AWD
7. Leon Reitman 11.642 @ 116.56 AWD
8. Nick Carleton 11.767 @ 115.93 AWD
9. Aaron Sadorf 11.76 @ 113.37 FWD
10. Lucas English 11.7X @ XXX.X - I know he ran 11.7 and blew up his 14b AWD

Glad you bumped me another spot......honestly, couldn't have been done by a better guy. Again, super impressive effort with your 'limitations.'

I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that stopped dreaming long enough to even suggest a 60 foot limit for a 14b, but I never said it wasn't possible. If you go back 2+ years to posts 1425 and 1437 I did say it's highly unlikely though, and I still believe it is. Shane is very close, but he's also clearly launching with everything the car has, with slicks and a launch rpm above his shift rpm. 1.3s on a 14b at 2500 lbs are mathematically improbable based on some quick estimates I did 2 years ago, but not impossible. As I said back then, I hope someone does it.

Tons of variables for sure. And, generally speaking, I agree 100%.

However, us quick 14b guys don't have too much 'general' about us at this level.

I think that 1.42 definitely leans on the possibility of the 1.3s being a reality this season.

 

[1qkfwd]

I really think Shane's car can 1.39 60'. Money and time being so tight really gives some time to look over the setup and see what the next biggest most affordable track improvement is. This go around it was the tires. I think weight would be the next big thing. Shane did an awesome job of working with what he had to gain. Stick with it how you can and 10s are in your pocket.

One thing I'll add, I am in the process of swapping over to the awd trans and taller tire. I got a great baseline on the fwd trans. So I swap the trans and hopfully will see if theres some hidden ET to be had. One big thing I'm happy about is no mods needed to run the 1g awd flywheel shield.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

I know I already told you but I'll put it here too, CONGRATS SHANE!!!

 

[Phil1320]

That can be tough to get used to. My car always runs it's best within 2 or 3 passes of a major setup change. It's pretty annoying, but it just means you're doing things right and you don't have to make 50 passes waiting for that ringer where everything happens to go perfectly. You guys at the top of the list are doing an awesome job. At that level, all of the low hanging fruit has been picked. Each tenth gets exponentially harder to get.

I'm sure there is room for improvement, but consider this. Let's say you drop that 1.42 to the magic 1.39. Is it repeatable? What does that ultimately do for ET?

I'll say that I definitely settled in to a 1.48-1.51 consistant 60' range once I was on the studderbox. That was with launch rpm at 6000 which generated 12 psi. Slick pressures at about 10 psi. 2600 PP. Street Disc.

I know that hitting a 1.39 vs. 1.42 won't do much for overall ET, if anything at all. It's just about breaking the run down such as the guy celebrating his 1.30 in his thread title.

On the flip side, a 1.39 60' for me grabs a tenth from my best 60' which should be noticeable on the timeslip even if only in hundredths.

I think a combination of brand new slicks, solid 4 puck clutch, and that 6750 launch rpm propelled Shane to the 1.42. That's a .15 improvement for him to the 60' mark alone which rewarded him with a .24 ET reduction. And, of course, the 100 lb. weight reduction always helps it all.

I agree with Shane that theres plenty more left. One legitamate pass will not be the top of the mark for 2013.

 

[iaintmaci]

I totally understand what you're saying, the magical 1.3? 60' isn't going to be a main goal, just something that I think of as possible. I also think 10.?? is possible for an awd. I'm not exactly close to either currently, but the closer you get the easier it is to believe in. This car can lose a lot more weight, even with the addition of a roll bar. It's running a 2g maf on Link v2.5, a crappy intake setup, a nearly stock 2g exhaust manifold, no dial in on the cams, a 200K plus mile stock 7.8:1 6 bolt block, unported head with old valves and seals on 14 out of 16, a street/strip fmic, etc. There's just so much more that could be done. It might not be a big gain, but 10-20 hp at this level is actually pretty big! And let's not mention that I'm doing my own tuning and I am very far away from proficient at it. I'm not saying I'll address all those things, but there's a lot more on the table.

After seeing you run an 11.300 makes my goal of 13's look a little silly. Keeps making me reconsider upgrading to something bigger next year. Might be entertaining to see how far I can push the 14b on used and second hand parts. .

 

[SBstar]

This whole car has been built on used and secondhand parts!

 

[iaintmaci]

Well, I am not willing to go as far on weight loss as you have. I still use this thing for a DD and like some of my stuff.

Still, I need to get this thing to a track and see what I can put down.

 

[1qkfwd]

Shane, a 1.42 to a 1.39 brings your time down to 11.27 and .4 away from joes 10.87. Just some food for thought.

 

[Phil1320]

Shane, a 1.42 to a 1.39 brings your time down to 11.27 and .4 away from joes 10.87. Just some food for thought.

Not neccessarily. It doesn't always work out like that.

Pretty sure this is the point that Kev was making.....

 

[1SloEvo]

Yeah, but as most drag racers calculate, each .1 off the 60' generally results in .2 off the ET on consistent runs. So if he knocks off .03 off the 60', it could result in running in the 11.22-11.26 range with all other variables the same. But how often do those variables really line up the exact same??

 

[1qkfwd]

1.39 to a 1.42 is .03. 11.30-.03 is 11.27. I'm not giving any extra credit for time. That's unpredictable. The car ran 11.30 with a 1.42 60' time. Thats predictable and can be reproduced. The 60' comes in a range. Shane's either maxed at a 1.42 and will have short times that range for example from 1.42-1.48. Or he's got room for improvement. He will need to get back to the track and get a handful of runs to see where he sits.

I personally think that his car has it in it to hit a 1.39. That's just my opinion on what track experience I have.

 

[Phil1320]

1.39 to a 1.42 is .03. 11.30-.03 is 11.27. I'm not giving any extra credit for time. That's unpredictable. The car ran 11.30 with a 1.42 60' time. Thats predictable and can be reproduced. The 60' comes in a range. Shane's either maxed at a 1.42 and will have short times that range for example from 1.42-1.48. Or he's got room for improvement. He will need to get back to the track and get a handful of runs to see where he sits.

I personally think that his car has it in it to hit a 1.39. That's just my opinion on what track experience I have.

That's valid only if he has the EXACT SAME RUN OTHERWISE.

He can be off on a shift point and that .03 vanishes, for example.

.03 at the 60' doesn't automatically mean .03 at the 1/4


I know an AWD 14b car can hit 1.3s......and if anyone can pull it off, Shane can.

 

[bullettdsm]

Lol, @ you guys bench racing .

1.3x Launch? I don't care what it nets you, that would be awesome on such "little" power.

As for runs and changes, Kev's got a point in that the early runs after a change are usually your best..... for people who know their set-up well and are very consistent.

Phil and Kev both know their set-ups well and usually the max results of a change are seen in the first few runs. BUT if there are a lot of things changed (especially if there are power AND traction changes) it may take a little more.

Now Shane's made quite a few changes since being "out" on the track. He's actually questioning knowing his set-up well (which imo is probably true). So his consistency at running the same way each time is suspect until he knows his set-up well (just as Justin ARFW is seeing with his set-up by feeling out different aspects of his set-up).

As for me, since I made a bunch of changes over the winter and am still waiting on parts, I'll live vicariously through you guys for now, .

 

[SBstar]

I'll agree to that. Even from last year there were very few runs where I didn't change something to see how the car would react. I Haven't had/taken the opportunity to go and just attempt to do the same thing over and over. I have been fortunate in that most changes I made ended up with positive results though. The car was at 25 psi of boost, I have no way of knowing if it made more power or not, don't even have "virtual dyno" logs to compare. I have two launches done on these new slicks, and a total of five launches on "slicks" ever. I think the learning curve to consistency is beyond that. Due to my speed sensor issue (which is fixed now BTW) I may have lucked into an optimum launch technique. I really don't know until I get to play around with it. I'm confident in my shift points for the power band I have, but there is always variance run to run. I'd say I'm still learning my entire "setup".

Now, is the hard part though. So much safety stuff to consider which isn't going to be bought overnight. This years budget went into the slicks/wheels and extra cash isn't just going to appear. So, I don't know when I'll be back at the track. I am strongly considering getting on a dyno though sometime soon. Hopefully that will give me a chance to see what the car is making and make some small adjustments in the tuning.

So even I may be living vicariously through Justin for a little while again.

 

[Phil1320]

I'll agree to that. Even from last year there were very few runs where I didn't change something to see how the car would react. I Haven't had/taken the opportunity to go and just attempt to do the same thing over and over. I have been fortunate in that most changes I made ended up with positive results though. The car was at 25 psi of boost, I have no way of knowing if it made more power or not, don't even have "virtual dyno" logs to compare. I have two launches done on these new slicks, and a total of five launches on "slicks" ever. I think the learning curve to consistency is beyond that. Due to my speed sensor issue (which is fixed now BTW) I may have lucked into an optimum launch technique. I really don't know until I get to play around with it. I'm confident in my shift points for the power band I have, but there is always variance run to run. I'd say I'm still learning my entire "setup".

Now, is the hard part though. So much safety stuff to consider which isn't going to be bought overnight. This years budget went into the slicks/wheels and extra cash isn't just going to appear. So, I don't know when I'll be back at the track. I am strongly considering getting on a dyno though sometime soon. Hopefully that will give me a chance to see what the car is making and make some small adjustments in the tuning.

So even I may be living vicariously through Justin for a little while again.

My belief is you've got another .15 in the car as it sits. Just driving and maximizing.

Is there another dragstrip in the vicinity that might let you get off two passes ?

Rather than having to wait to accumulate all the safety gear...

 

[SBstar]

There is another strip I could go to. And I probably could get away with at least two passes, maybe even more as apparently it's the "less strict" track. But, that crash we witnessed freaked my wife out a little bit and she has stated that she isn't really interested in me racing until I can have a roll bar in the car. Maybe that'll wear off, maybe not. But, there's also the risk that I go and get one pass in and they don't let me run at all. That's a long drive and entry fee for that. I'll be working towards figuring it all out that's for sure.

I would agree that it would seem there is more in the car just by getting more passes in and focusing on my driving. I'd like to believe there's .15 there, and maybe there is, I know I can add a degree or two of timing. I'd also like to play with the boost levels some more. 25 may actually be too high and I'd make more power at say 23 by producing a little less hot air. Tuning and driving is definitely my two areas to improve upon. The setup is strong even if there are other things I can improve there. I think more weight can be lost fairly cheaply/easily but that will be offset by the roll bar setup if/when it goes in. I've been tentative to set a new goal but I think I stated to Justin that after beating Nate's 11.37 that 11.25 made sense to be the next goal. I think that will be what I shoot for next time at the track but I also think I may have to set my sights higher. Honestly, there is no telling until I can get more then one actual run down the track.

Speaking of Justin, when is that race coming up? Is the 14b still going to be on the car for it?
And Steve, are you itching to get back to the strip again now? Anyone else!

 

[Phil1320]

Makes sense. I'm contemplating just doin my rollbar now rather that worrying about the weight as much. I mean I'd like to make some passes as light as possible, but, safety is #1.

Like I said, my local track was telling me to slow down when I hit 11.59 last time out. So, I'll get booted immediately.

With my car being as apart as it is, it might be the best time...

 

[SBstar]

For you Phil, make sure you think ahead. Obviously if the car is going to see the drag strip again you'll need at minimum a roll bar setup. But, you want it to also be compliant for the road racing you plan on doing.

As cool as it was to get that badge of honor, kicked out of the track feeling, it also kind of sucks. Now I'm wondering what I'm going to do and how I'm going to get the safety stuff done. I don't regret the wheels/slicks at all, but I do regret not just assuming I'd only get one trip to the track before I'd need the safety stuff and planning for it. I may have planned a little further ahead. You do have to think about your own safety out there as well and there's a reason why they have those rules in place once you go this quick.

 

[Phil1320]

For you Phil, make sure you think ahead. Obviously if the car is going to see the drag strip again you'll need at minimum a roll bar setup. But, you want it to also be compliant for the road racing you plan on doing.

As cool as it was to get that badge of honor, kicked out of the track feeling, it also kind of sucks. Now I'm wondering what I'm going to do and how I'm going to get the safety stuff done. I don't regret the wheels/slicks at all, but I do regret not just assuming I'd only get one trip to the track before I'd need the safety stuff and planning for it. I may have planned a little further ahead. You do have to think about your own safety out there as well and there's a reason why they have those rules in place once you go this quick.

Definitely. I'm going to just do the basic 6 point rollbar for starters. However once the drags are done, or I'm not as weight conscious, I'll have the door bars removed, and have nascar bars made and have the cage extended for full roof protection etc.

I think your idea of buying the premade kit is a good one. Unless theres someone local to you that will do all the bending/cutting and supply the materials for the same $.

I actually have the main hoop & X - brace that met the rear shock towers from OG DSMr Jack Culotta's GSX. It's chromoly. I'll see if my local shop wants to use the main hoop and work from there, or bend all new stuff.

The only issue for me, and it's a pretty big one, is that most roadracing sanctioning bodies don't allow use of chromoly cages. Only mild steel. My Archer #34 doesn't have the original moly cage in it. The guy that originally bought it from the Archer brothers did race the car and was forced to pull the original cage in favor of the mild steel.

So! For time trial stuff I might be ok with chromoly. But, if I were to ever truly 'race' I would be forced to do the same.