General Please help me fix my compressor surge!

[DSMPT]

Video!
1st through 3rd gear. Surge in 2nd and 3rd.

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I see what you are talking about, and understand why you wanted a stiffer BOV spring. We were talking about a different thing...
But I still recommend to put back the original BOV spring while diagnosing. Since you said that the original and the stiffer spring acted the same, the stiffer spring may make the situation more complicated in case if the BOV spring is not related to the issue. You can go with a stiffer spring later when you know that is you need.

Did you check what happen with the original BOV spring, without the boost controller (Running a boost source directly to the wastegate actuator) and a different vacuum/boost source for the BOV?

Is your car profile the recent? And What do you have in the inlet of turbo?

 

[silentsnow31802]

I see what you are talking about, and understand why you wanted a stiffer BOV spring. We were talking about a different thing...
But I still recommend to put back the original BOV spring while diagnosing. Since you said that the original and the stiffer spring acted the same, the stiffer spring may make the situation more complicated in case if the BOV spring is not related to the issue. You can go with a stiffer spring later when you know that is you need.

Did you check what happen with the original BOV spring, without the boost controller (Running a boost source directly to the wastegate actuator) and a different vacuum/boost source for the BOV?

Is your car profile the recent? And What do you have in the inlet of turbo?

I'll try plumbing the boost source directly to the wastegate and see what happens. That's a good idea. I never tried that with either spring. I think it's pretty recent.

Here are some engine bay pictures I took a few days ago

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[silentsnow31802]

Took two logs and videos. One is the original issue of the surging and a log so they can be matched up. The other is with the wastegate plumbed directly to the J-Pipe.
Also added my current tune just in case anyone wants to take a look. Still in the process of tuning for E85, keep in mind.

Boost controller:

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Wastegate:

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[silentsnow31802]

Anyone have any ideas?
The only thing I can think of is my intercooler piping. The side that goes from the intercooler to the throttle body goes through the stock hole for the side mount which is smaller than the rest of the piping. Maybe the step down in size is causing some sort of restriction? I also have this large silicone coupler where the GM MAF used to be. Not sure how those size changes would affect flow.

 

[We're on Boost]

I don't think it's your intercooler piping.

When you put this BOV back together, do you re-tuck the diaphragm like the guy is doing in this Tial Sport video?
Starting at 1:40 in the video:
TiAL Sport Q BOV
He's going round and round shoving it in with an allen wrench so it isn't being pinched anywhere.

Your videos, the light is not aimed right. The upper part of the port is in dark shadow. The light should be aimed upward so as to light up the upper part of the port and the o-ring area of the piston. The o-ring that is on the piston, part of it is visible all the time, I think. I think I can see the lower ring-land on the piston and about 20% of the o-ring above that at least, all the time. To me, if you watch the position of the lower ring land when there is no flutter, and then keep watching that as it starts to flutter, I don't think it has moved. I thought we would see the piston pull down 30 or 40 thou when the flutter gets going, but I can't tell, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Would be a lot clearer I think if the lighting was good.

Have you ever replaced that o-ring with a proper new one? What kind of stuff like grease or oil did you lube it up with?

Here's a wild-assed guess but it's so easy to do, why not try it. It's probably not the problem but it might tell us something.
Your Boost tab, you've been using 16 to 18 psi in the "And then 100% below" field. Right now you have 17.92 psi in there. Try setting that to 0. See if it changes the flutter at all. I mean 17 should be ok, but I'd try 0 for a little while.

 

[We're on Boost]

This might be worth kicking around - here's a clear look at a Tial BOV working and I think it's open more, opening farther at high vacuum than what we see yours doing.
The person in this video thinks this is about right. But he doesn't have any video of it while driving. He had just replaced a stiff spring with a lighter spring.
I personally don't know, my BOV is a simple thing with no rubber o-ring and no rubber diaphragm. It's just a piston in an adjustable length cylinder and the spring is shimable and the ports dump to atmosphere and it seems to work fine.
Tial Blowoff valve talk

 

[Justin DuBois]

I’m wondering if the lighter spring - shimmed - with more aggressive CAM that has a lower vacuum would balance out better than a stock CAM.

 

[silentsnow31802]

I don't think it's your intercooler piping.

When you put this BOV back together, do you re-tuck the diaphragm like the guy is doing in this Tial Sport video?
Starting at 1:40 in the video:
TiAL Sport Q BOV
He's going round and round shoving it in with an allen wrench so it isn't being pinched anywhere.

Your videos, the light is not aimed right. The upper part of the port is in dark shadow. The light should be aimed upward so as to light up the upper part of the port and the o-ring area of the piston. The o-ring that is on the piston, part of it is visible all the time, I think. I think I can see the lower ring-land on the piston and about 20% of the o-ring above that at least, all the time. To me, if you watch the position of the lower ring land when there is no flutter, and then keep watching that as it starts to flutter, I don't think it has moved. I thought we would see the piston pull down 30 or 40 thou when the flutter gets going, but I can't tell, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Would be a lot clearer I think if the lighting was good.

Have you ever replaced that o-ring with a proper new one? What kind of stuff like grease or oil did you lube it up with?

Here's a wild-assed guess but it's so easy to do, why not try it. It's probably not the problem but it might tell us something.
Your Boost tab, you've been using 16 to 18 psi in the "And then 100% below" field. Right now you have 17.92 psi in there. Try setting that to 0. See if it changes the flutter at all. I mean 17 should be ok, but I'd try 0 for a little while.

I did not but it didnt seem like I had to. I will remove it and check it and report back.
Its hard to get the light aimed for the video. Its held on the camera mount with zip ties. Ill figure a way to get it better though. I didnt think it was moving when it was fluttering but ill have to redo the lighting and take another video.
The o-ring is new. It didn thave one when I got the system so I had to purchase one. I have never lubed it but I can. I have some leftover from another project. Ill do that when I take it apart again.
Thats where my tuner has been putting the boost settings. No idea why but if its working for them than im okay with it.
I think if I put 0 there it will go away. It seems to only flutter at 8psi or above on partial throttle. I can give it a shot though and report back. At this point ill try anything.
Do you have a suggestion on a different way to control boost? Can it be done by RPM?

This might be worth kicking around - here's a clear look at a Tial BOV working and I think it's open more, opening farther at high vacuum than what we see yours doing.
The person in this video thinks this is about right. But he doesn't have any video of it while driving. He had just replaced a stiff spring with a lighter spring.
I personally don't know, my BOV is a simple thing with no rubber o-ring and no rubber diaphragm. It's just a piston in an adjustable length cylinder and the spring is shimable and the ports dump to atmosphere and it seems to work fine.
Tial Blowoff valve talk

That one is absolutely open more than mine. Im not sure its supposed to work that way though. Seems like his is open way too much. I chose my spring based on Tials own chart on what should be used. I can put the lighter back in and try it again. Last time I tried it didnt make any difference though.

I’m wondering if the lighter spring - shimmed - with more aggressive CAM that has a lower vacuum would balance out better than a stock CAM.

Light spring shimmed would make it stiffer no?
I have 272 cams at the moment. Or at least thats what im told by the person I got the car from. I havent verified myself.
I have thought about getting an adjustable cam gear to get the intake cam to open the valves earlier but I dont want to thrown that money at it if I dont need to.

 

[We're on Boost]

Its hard to get the light aimed for the video. Its held on the camera mount with zip ties. Ill figure a way to get it better though. I didnt think it was moving when it was fluttering but ill have to redo the lighting and take another video.

Yeah my BOV is also mounted hanging down from the pipe, like yours. I looked at it today thinking about how I would get a cam and a light in there to shoot from the right angle. All I could think of was if I still had an old cell phone that I didn't care about anymore I could shoot video with the phone's flash light on. I've shot video like that before, under the intake manifold, but it was with the engine turned off and nothing hot and my phone was old. Right now my phone is brand new and I don't have any old phones anymore.

Do you have a suggestion on a different way to control boost? Can it be done by RPM?

Yes the Base Duty Cycle table lets you put in duty cycle at RPM.

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In fact when I looked at your log from post #26 (3rd gear pull) I looked at that and thought, man he could have a 0 in the blank that is set to 17.92psi, and could have 100 in the table in the 3000 rpm column and the 3500 rpm column, and he would get the same result. The upside being that it wouldn't be running the boost control solenoid at 100% so much of the time. Would only run it at 100% between 3000 and 3500 rpm + manifold pressure above the "Lock at 0% below" number.
If you display WGSDuty in that log, you'll see that you got that anyway - it ran the solenoid at 100% from 3000 to 3500 rpm, and at that point the boost was above 17.92psi so it reverted to the values in the table which are around 60 - 70%.
That was a pretty good looking pull. So what I was thinking was, sure just put 100 in the fields at 3000 and 4000 rpm and leave the rest of the table as is, and put a 0 in the "100% below" blank.
Some people might say to use 90 or 95 instead of 100 for a max duty cycle, to take it easy on the solenoid, and on the driver chip in the ecu that sends current to it. I don't know if it's a big deal really but the driver chips in the ecu are always a bit of a worry.

I noticed something I don't understand when I looked at the WGSDuty at less than 3000 rpm in that pull. The duty was slow picking up from 0% to 100% which it was supposed to do when you went over 0psi of boost. It did get up to 100% right about as you went past 3000 rpm, and at that point you already had 8psi of boost. Oh it's probably ok that it was slow picking up duty cycle because the spring in your wastegate should be keeping the wastegate shut until 8psi anyway, probably higher.
Do you know what boost psi your wastegate spring is supposedly set for?

Im not sure its supposed to work that way though.

I'm not sure either.

 

[Justin DuBois]

It matters how the boost control solenoid is plumbed. 100% could be Minimum or Maximum boost - plumbing dependent.

 

[silentsnow31802]

Yeah my BOV is also mounted hanging down from the pipe, like yours. I looked at it today thinking about how I would get a cam and a light in there to shoot from the right angle. All I could think of was if I still had an old cell phone that I didn't care about anymore I could shoot video with the phone's flash light on. I've shot video like that before, under the intake manifold, but it was with the engine turned off and nothing hot and my phone was old. Right now my phone is brand new and I don't have any old phones anymore.


Yes the Base Duty Cycle table lets you put in duty cycle at RPM.

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In fact when I looked at your log from post #26 (3rd gear pull) I looked at that and thought, man he could have a 0 in the blank that is set to 17.92psi, and could have 100 in the table in the 3000 rpm column and the 3500 rpm column, and he would get the same result. The upside being that it wouldn't be running the boost control solenoid at 100% so much of the time. Would only run it at 100% between 3000 and 3500 rpm + manifold pressure above the "Lock at 0% below" number.
If you display WGSDuty in that log, you'll see that you got that anyway - it ran the solenoid at 100% from 3000 to 3500 rpm, and at that point the boost was above 17.92psi so it reverted to the values in the table which are around 60 - 70%.
That was a pretty good looking pull. So what I was thinking was, sure just put 100 in the fields at 3000 and 4000 rpm and leave the rest of the table as is, and put a 0 in the "100% below" blank.
Some people might say to use 90 or 95 instead of 100 for a max duty cycle, to take it easy on the solenoid, and on the driver chip in the ecu that sends current to it. I don't know if it's a big deal really but the driver chips in the ecu are always a bit of a worry.

I noticed something I don't understand when I looked at the WGSDuty at less than 3000 rpm in that pull. The duty was slow picking up from 0% to 100% which it was supposed to do when you went over 0psi of boost. It did get up to 100% right about as you went past 3000 rpm, and at that point you already had 8psi of boost. Oh it's probably ok that it was slow picking up duty cycle because the spring in your wastegate should be keeping the wastegate shut until 8psi anyway, probably higher.
Do you know what boost psi your wastegate spring is supposedly set for?


I'm not sure either.

The wastegate is stock as far as I know. There is a log with a wastegate pull in post number 53 if you want to take a look. I cant at the moment, not on a computer I can open that file with.

It matters how the boost control solenoid is plumbed. 100% could be Minimum or Maximum boost - plumbing dependent.

My solenoid is plumbed like this.

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[Justin DuBois]

The wastegate is stock as far as I know. There is a log with a wastegate pull in post number 53 if you want to take a look. I cant at the moment, not on a computer I can open that file with.

My solenoid is plumbed like this.

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And you need to know the resting position of the valve without power applied. Is the valve open or closed at 0% Duty Cycle.

This looks "like" the stock solenoid, stock ECU boost control setup - but I'm curious if there is anything that limits the amount of air volume from the boost source - like a boost pill?

Consider the two scinero:
Min Boost would be when all the air from the boost source goes to the Internal WGA.
Maximum Boost would be when all the air from the boost source is directed away from the WGA. The question is - where does the boost source go when the WGA is getting nothing.

The stock solenoid bleeds boost to atmosphere to prevent boost from opening the WGA, and there is an aperture in the port of the solenoid to limit the loss (boost leak)

The pictured solenoid might be venting boost to the top port, or it might be blocking the boost - I'm not familiar, Do you know?

 

[silentsnow31802]

And you need to know the resting position of the valve without power applied. Is the valve open or closed at 0% Duty Cycle.

This looks "like" the stock solenoid, stock ECU boost control setup - but I'm curious if there is anything that limits the amount of air volume from the boost source - like a boost pill?

Consider the two scinero:
Min Boost would be when all the air from the boost source goes to the Internal WGA.
Maximum Boost would be when all the air from the boost source is directed away from the WGA. The question is - where does the boost source go when the WGA is getting nothing.

The stock solenoid bleeds boost to atmosphere to prevent boost from opening the WGA, and there is an aperture in the port of the solenoid to limit the loss (boost leak)

The pictured solenoid might be venting boost to the top port, or it might be blocking the boost - I'm not familiar, Do you know?

It is this on here...

Whoops, we couldn't find that.

it does not state if its normally closed or open. It actually says both for some reason. I can check myself tomorrow when I get a chance. Im curious now that you mention that.

There is no restrictor pills in my setup. So there should be no restrictions in any boost source lines.

Can I get clarification on what exactly Duty Cycle means? Is this the percentage the boost solenoid opens? So 0 would be closed and 100 would be full open (or vice versa depending on solenoids resting position)

 

[We're on Boost]

The pictured solenoid might be venting boost to the top port, or it might be blocking the boost - I'm not familiar, Do you know?

Justin it looks to me like he is using the Ingersoll-Rand solenoid that is sold by ECMtuning.
It also looks to me like he is using the lower port on the side of the solenoid that has 2 ports.

Check out this diagram and text for the port operation on the IR solenoid.

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That diagram and text are taken straight from the ECMtuning page here:

bcsinstall [ECMTuning - wiki]

dsmlink.com

Basically, 0% duty cycle ("inactive") completely connects the lower port to the "common" port which allows maximum air pressure through to the actuator canister. That air pressure acts against (opposing) the spring. Spring is trying to close the wastegate. Air pressure in the canister is trying to open it. So more air pressure in the canister is minimum boost.

 

[curt-s]

Even if the WG was flapping around or improperly actuated, the overall effect on boost would be delayed and dampened as the turbine sees and then doesn't see exhaust gas flow. Having this surge-like sound at less than 8psi is quite unusual. RPM doesn't rise fast enough to be overboosting and the throttle position generally speaks to that attained boost pressure. Although those are the flattest TPS readings after a shift I think I've ever seen. Good muscle memory on the pedal, I suppose. Or an obstruction

In the second video, it looks like at 0:19 the BOV valve starts to open. Maybe it's my eyes but I keep rewatching it and it looks like it drops a mm or so.
Maybe draw a thin horizontal line on it in view of the camera just to confirm this isn't BOV flutter?

 

[silentsnow31802]

Unusual indeed. Im not one to usually post a thread asking for help, I like to do research and figure things out on my own. However, this one has me pretty stumped.
Im not sure what you mean about flattest TPS readings. I put my foot back to where it was before the shift? This is my first manual car in about 15 years so it must luck .

Its hard to tell if the valve starts to open. That shadow in my lighting isnt helping. Im going to try and get a better video this weekend. Also maybe share a picture of my camera setup

 

[We're on Boost]

In the second video, it looks like at 0:19 the BOV valve starts to open. Maybe it's my eyes but I keep rewatching it and it looks like it drops a mm or so.
Maybe draw a thin horizontal line on it in view of the camera just to confirm this isn't BOV flutter?

I'd like to see it better too. I think there already is a line there on the piston that we could see just fine if we had lighting aimed slightly upward instead of downward.
The line is the lower ring land in the piston that the o-ring sits on. It's right there all the time, I think. I don't think the piston ever goes up far enough to completely hide the o-ring in any of these videos. I wonder if the piston ever completely closes. If the diaphragm is pinched, the piston probably wouldn't ever go full travel in either direction.

 

[silentsnow31802]

I'd like to see it better too. I think there already is a line there on the piston that we could see just fine if we had lighting aimed slightly upward instead of downward.
The line is the lower ring land in the piston that the o-ring sits on. It's right there all the time, I think. I don't think the piston ever goes up far enough to completely hide the o-ring in any of these videos. I wonder if the piston ever completely closes. If the diaphragm is pinched, the piston probably wouldn't ever go full travel in either direction.

I will also be removing the BOV this weekend to check the diaphragm. I did not tuck it like one of the videos posted. I didnt think I had to. Ill take some pictures while I have it out. Also make sure its completely closed when resting. I see what you mean about it looking like it never completely hides the o-ring. I thought the same while reviewing the videos.

I did check the condition of the diaphragm, and it looked fine. I've had it open a few times to change out the spring.

 

[DSMPT]

I'll try plumbing the boost source directly to the wastegate and see what happens. That's a good idea. I never tried that with either spring. I think it's pretty recent.

Here are some engine bay pictures I took a few days ago

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Took two logs and videos. One is the original issue of the surging and a log so they can be matched up. The other is with the wastegate plumbed directly to the J-Pipe.
Also added my current tune just in case anyone wants to take a look. Still in the process of tuning for E85, keep in mind.

Boost controller:

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Wastegate:

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As you will be checking the boost controller setup and the BOV, I may ask something different.
Did you try to run without the turbo intake pipe/air filter and the 45 degree long silicone coupler to see what would happen?

 

[silentsnow31802]

As you will be checking the boost controller setup and the BOV, I may ask something different.
Did you try to run without the turbo intake pipe/air filter and the 45 degree long silicone coupler to see what would happen?

Ive only ran it as you see it.
Which 45-degree long coupler? The one on the turbo inlet?
I can remove the entire thing and leave the inlet completely open if thats what your asking.

 

[DSMPT]

I can remove the entire thing and leave the inlet completely open if thats what your asking.

Yes, that's what I asked. A soft/long silicone coupler at the turbo inlet sometimes causes surging or choking. Just to eliminate possibility one by one.

 

[silentsnow31802]

Yes, that's what I asked. A soft/long silicone coupler at the turbo inlet sometimes causes surging or choking. Just to eliminate possibility one by one.

Is that ends up being it i swear to God...

 

[We're on Boost]

I found the exploded view parts drawing that Tial has for this BOV and strangely they don't even show the piston o-ring as a separate part.
But Verocious Motorsports has a pretty good pic of the diaphragm and piston with o-ring on it as a single assembly. I can't tell if it is a regular round section o-ring or if it is something a little different. Usually these darn manufacturers won't tell you that it's just a standard o-ring # XXX. They seem to want to keep o-rings mysterious enough so that you have to pay them $5 for it when you could probably buy them for 10 cents each from The O-ring Store if you knew what one it was. Anyway:

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And here is the exploded parts list which I found on Vivid Racing.
The only o-ring they show as a separate part in this list is the one on the weld flange.
BTW I still haven't found where Tial says what kind of lube to put on the piston o-ring.

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[silentsnow31802]

I found the exploded view parts drawing that Tial has for this BOV and strangely they don't even show the piston o-ring as a separate part.
But Verocious Motorsports has a pretty good pic of the diaphragm and piston with o-ring on it as a single assembly. I can't tell if it is a regular round section o-ring or if it is something a little different. Usually these darn manufacturers won't tell you that it's just a standard o-ring # XXX. They seem to want to keep o-rings mysterious enough so that you have to pay them $5 for it when you could probably buy them for 10 cents each from The O-ring Store if you knew what one it was. Anyway:

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And here is the exploded parts list which I found on Vivid Racing.
The only o-ring they show as a separate part in this list is the one on the weld flange.
BTW I still haven't found where Tial says what kind of lube to put on this o-ring.

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Nice! Im absolutely saving those images to my Eclipse Stuff folder.
I have some fancy O-Ring lube I can use. Cant remember off the top of my head who makes it. But it should work just fine.
Ill see if I remember to update this with the name of the stuff.

 

[We're on Boost]

Nice! Im absolutely saving those images to my Eclipse Stuff folder.
I have some fancy O-Ring lube I can use. Cant remember off the top of my head who makes it. But it should work just fine.
Ill see if I remember to update this with the name of the stuff.

I have a "Stuff" folder too. It's got a lot of Stuff in it. Yeesh it has 10,370 files. 10 GB.
You know, some types of o-ring lube are made for assemblies that move very slowly or don't move at all, like the o-ring on the Weld Flange.
I use Dow Corning Silicone Compound 111 for things like that.
But 111 Compound is very viscous. I don't think I'd use it on something that has to move fast and moves a lot like this piston, because it would probably drag too much.
That's why I think it would be good to know what Tial says to use on it.

I did email Tial tech support twice in 2016 and got pretty good answers back.
At the time it was Tech Support <[email protected]>