General Please help me fix my compressor surge!

[We're on Boost]

In the first one, the "Lock at settings 0", I see that it obeys the table whenever BoostPSI is above 0. When BoostPSI is below 0, then the duty cycle is 0. So the "Lock at 0% below" is still actually in effect. That's ok though - for what we're doing we mostly wanted it using the table values whenever the BoostPSI is above 0. Maybe if you really needed it to use the table all the way to the left, you'd put -29.92 in those 2 blanks.
The first log and video also show that the table value of about 60% is enough to make it flutter.

Yes it did start to flutter at that point. It happened so late and so quick that it didnt register in my head that it happened until after I put my foot down. I thought I was in the clear. It had to have been right on the edge.

Too bad that it was right on the edge there. So there might be a little more tweaking of the table possible, but not any more great improvements to be had probably from just this work around.

 

[silentsnow31802]

In the first one, the "Lock at settings 0", I see that it obeys the table whenever BoostPSI is above 0. When BoostPSI is below 0, then the duty cycle is 0. So the "Lock at 0% below" is still actually in effect. That's ok though - for what we're doing we mostly wanted it using the table values whenever the BoostPSI is above 0. Maybe if you really needed it to use the table all the way to the left, you'd put -29.92 in those 2 blanks.
The first log and video also show that the table value of about 60% is enough to make it flutter.


Too bad that it was right on the edge there. So there might be a little more tweaking of the table possible, but not any more great improvements to be had probably from just this work around.

Oh yea good point about the Lock at 0% below field. I think your right it was still in effect just didnt matter in this case.
Ill have to get another log without backing off now that I expect it to still happen.
Think im going to try and mess with the settings a bit if I have time this weekend and see if I can find the tipping point.
Luckily this way once im past 4000 the boost comes on strong as the turbo is already spooled its just dumping its pressure into the exhaust instead of the engine.

 

[We're on Boost]

If no easy fix turns up, you might want to try a 2-chamber BOV like what Justin was talking about in post #43.
That way you'd have the normal top chamber where increasing air pressure tries to keep the valve closed, and you'd have a lower chamber where increasing air pressure tries to open the valve.
The hose to the lower chamber you would connect to the J-pipe or wherever you have a fitting near the compressor outlet.
So the pressure in that hose would be like what you are measuring with the gauge in your videos, where we see it going to 11psi and then you get surge/flutter and at the same time the pressure in the intake manifold is only 3 or 4 psi, when the throttle is about 27% and revs about 4000. Big imbalance in the pressures under that condition. You have a turbo that is eager to make boost even when there is not much exhaust energy, which results in this big imbalance.

When you are at that condition, the lower chamber would have a lot more air pressure in it than the upper chamber, so hopefully it would open the valve and relieve that 11psi down to something a few psi less and there would be no surge. Opening the valve at that condition does more than just relieving pressure. It moves your operating point on the compressor map down and to the right. Both good for getting away from the surge line and solidly into the proper map area where it belongs. Moves it down because lower pressure. Moves it to the right because there will be more air flowing through the turbo. Some of the air is being "wasted" rather than going to the engine but so what. It saves your turbo from surge damage.

I have to wonder why the heck did Greddy discontinue the Type-S?
But the Greddy Type-R is still pretty easy to buy new I think, and they are 2-chamber. There are Type-S knock-offs available too, usually advertising "sounds just like fast and furious" and I have no idea about their quality.
@Justin DuBois is there a reason for why you got an old Type-S rather than a new Type-R? Also, I don't understand why you said "This is a drag car BOV. Not really designed for smooth throttle response." Your car has pretty good throttle modulation doesn't it? Your car uses a TD05H turbine wheel in a 7cm turbine housing, so in that way it's in the same ballpark as the car in this thread.

Which reminds me, this line in the OP's turbo spec, I don't get it:
"Garrett T04B 70mm Turbine" (this is from post #90 on page 4)
Does this turbo have a Garrett turbine wheel?
70mm would be the compressor wheel. Does it have a Garrett compressor wheel?
What is this really?

 

[silentsnow31802]

Which reminds me, this line in the OP's turbo spec, I don't get it:
"Garrett T04B 70mm Turbine" (this is from post #90 on page 4)
Does this turbo have a Garrett turbine wheel?
70mm would be the compressor wheel. Does it have a Garrett compressor wheel?
What is this really?

The turbine wheel is the exhaust side right? It does have a Garrett 70mm exhaust wheelie thing in a machined to fit big 16g housing.

EDIT: You made me question myself and I may have read Justin's email wrong.

An EVO 3 turbo is 48/68 and this one is 48/70 because of a Garrett something or other wheel on im not sure what side of the turbo anymore. I thought it was the exhaust side but now I'm not sure.

 

[We're on Boost]

The turbine wheel is the exhaust side right? It does have a Garrett 70mm exhaust wheelie thing in a machined to fit big 16g housing.

EDIT: You made me question myself and I may have read Justin's email wrong.

An EVO 3 turbo is 48/68 and this one is 48/70 because of a Garrett something or other wheel on im not sure what side of the turbo anymore. I thought it was the exhaust side but now I'm not sure.

Yes the turbine wheel is the exhaust wheel.
Ok I think I got it by looking at T series wheel sizes. 70mm is way too big for a turbine wheel in this turbo size. But it's exactly what the exducer diameter is for a Garrett T04B compressor wheel. We don't get 70mm turbine wheels until much bigger turbos than this.

Here's a chart I found for Garrett T04B compressor wheel sizes:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

All of them have a 70mm exducer and 2 or 3 of them have a 48mm inducer.
So I think your compressor wheel must be one of those Garrett wheels.
And your turbine wheel just about has to be a Mitsubishi (MHI) TD05H because the turbine wheel and the shaft are made as one part.
The TD05H turbine wheel is what is used in all the 16g's, and in the 14b, and in hybrid or bastard 20g turbos.

 

[silentsnow31802]

Yes the turbine wheel is the exhaust wheel.
Ok I think I got it by looking at T series wheel sizes. 70mm is way too big for a turbine wheel in this turbo size. But it's exactly what the exducer diameter is for a Garrett T04B compressor wheel. We don't get 70mm turbine wheels until much bigger turbos than this.

Here's a chart I found for Garrett T04B compressor wheel sizes:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

All of them have a 70mm exducer and 2 or 3 of them have a 48mm inducer.
So I think your compressor wheel must be one of those Garrett wheels.
And your turbine wheel just about has to be a Mitsubishi (MHI) TD05H because the turbine wheel and the shaft are made as one part.
The TD05H turbine wheel is what is used in all the 16g's, and in the 14b, and in hybrid or bastard 20g turbos.

Okay that makes sense. I think your right. So might that be why I'm getting surge when I'm not supposed to? Bigger wheel make more air?

 

[We're on Boost]

Okay that makes sense. I think your right. So might that be why I'm getting surge when I'm not supposed to? Bigger wheel make more air?

Well the wheel is almost the same size, and the inducer of it is the same size. But since it is a completely different wheel from the MHI wheels, I am curious to see a compressor map for it if we could find one. The thing we'd want to look at on the map would be where the surge line is.
So I looked last night for T04B compressor maps and found some but I don't think any of them are the right one for this wheel. The way people were naming these things at the time was kind of different. Even if I was looking at the right map I probably wouldn't know it because it would have some unfamiliar naming convention.

At the time that a lot of people were using T series wheels I was only interested in the T04E stuff, mainly the T04E 50 trim.
The T04B stuff I never got familiar with at all.

I wonder how many turbos Jus has built this exact way?
I don't think it's a common enough configuration that we'd find a bunch of people out there with them who would have anecdotal umm anecdotes about it. Which is a disadvantage in my mind. Compared to one with an actual MHI 16g compressor wheel.

When it comes to the turbo, another thing about it just in general is the thing about how much exhaust energy a turbo needs to get really pumping. Yours wants to go pretty hard already with only 27% throttle and ~4000 rpm. A bigger turbo, mainly one with a bigger turbine housing (like 8cm instead of 7cm) and a bigger turbine wheel will need more exhaust flow to get rowdy.
So for an example, an FP Green UHF 57S for DSM turbo has an 8cm turbine housing, a bigger turbine wheel, and the compressor cover has large anti-surge ports around the compressor inlet which are supposed to reduce and soften any surge that might happen. I would expect it to be less pushy than your current turbo at 27% throttle and 4000 rpm.

I see you are doing flex fuel with about 78% ethanol, and speed density, and some 272 cams, so it's not like you would be totally wasting the higher flowing capability of a larger turbo like the Green. And maybe a turbo that is hyperactive at low throttle settings is not what you want, but it seems to be what you have. So that is why I mention the idea of larger turbos.
Maybe you want to keep a more stock look under the hood for CA visual inspections? Is that part of what you have to think about?

 

[We're on Boost]

The Green turbo is not made to use the J-pipe though. You'd have to get rid of the J-pipe. That would be a good thing in itself. But it would mean different lower piping - from turbo to intercooler. Your intercooler looks to me like it is OK although I don't see any specs for it.
The FP 68HTA would be another turbo to consider and it uses a J-pipe. It also comes in an 8cm turbine housing. FP makes it in 2 versions (2 different turbine wheels).

 

[pagosa dsm]

I have a holset hx35. I live at 9000 feet. I experience compressor surge at middle throttle at 10PSI. for the solution I installed a tornado in the intake pipe. this solved my compressor surge. This is what CAT and Ford did to solve their compressor surge.

 

[silentsnow31802]

I've seen this mentioned.
Your talking about those as seen on tv things right?
I dunno how I feel about using that but I'm willing to try it.
Got a link to the one you use?

I have a holset hx35. I live at 9000 feet. I experience compressor surge at middle throttle at 10PSI. for the solution I installed a tornado in the intake pipe. this solved my compressor surge. This is what CAT and Ford did to solve their compressor surge.

 

[pagosa dsm]

I've seen this mentioned.
Your talking about those as seen on tv things right?
I dunno how I feel about using that but I'm willing to try it.
Got a link to the one you use?

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[We're on Boost]

I installed a tornado in the intake pipe.

Can you post a shot or two of how the install looks, how it fits together with the turbo - air filter - MAF and whatnot to make your whole intake?
Is the OD of it 2.75 inches?

 

[pagosa dsm]

Can you post a shot or two of how the install looks, how it fits together with the turbo - air filter - MAF and whatnot to make your whole intake?
Is the OD of it 2.75 inches?

buy a tornado that fits the ID of your intake tube. mine is 3inch. I can take a picture later.

 

[silentsnow31802]

They look to be slightly adjustable.
Wonder if the 70mm one will fit a 2.5 inch tube.
I think I have a 3 inch section available where my GM MAF used to be. Do you use a 70mm tornado on a 3 inch pipe?

 

[We're on Boost]

They look to be slightly adjustable.

It looks like each size has about a 4mm range.
If you pick one of those size pictures, you do get a page with some decent info on that particular size.

Divide the mm number by 25.4 to get inches of course.
Or if you are starting from inches, multiply by 25.4 to get mm.

For example 2.5 inches is 63.5mm which unfortunately falls right in-between 2 of their sizes. So for that one you'd have to get right down on it with an accurate measurement of your pipe ID, not just a nominal number.

3 inches, if you are talking about a 3" GM MAF, they are almost a quarter of an inch bigger than 3 inches. So again you would have to actually measure the ID of your hardware there.

 

[silentsnow31802]

Quick update to this.
I purchased one of those tornado things with extreme skepticism. It was only 20 bucks so I figured why the hell not.
Well, it didn't completely fix the surging but it sure did help. I installed it between my intercooler outlet and the 90 coming off the throttle body. I have a large silicone coupler there where the GM MAF used to be so I figured it would be a good place to install it.
I think between that and slightly limiting boost at lower RPM I can consider this good enough.
Appreciate the help from everyone here.

 

[silentsnow31802]

Well the wheel is almost the same size, and the inducer of it is the same size. But since it is a completely different wheel from the MHI wheels, I am curious to see a compressor map for it if we could find one. The thing we'd want to look at on the map would be where the surge line is.
So I looked last night for T04B compressor maps and found some but I don't think any of them are the right one for this wheel. The way people were naming these things at the time was kind of different. Even if I was looking at the right map I probably wouldn't know it because it would have some unfamiliar naming convention.

At the time that a lot of people were using T series wheels I was only interested in the T04E stuff, mainly the T04E 50 trim.
The T04B stuff I never got familiar with at all.

I wonder how many turbos Jus has built this exact way?
I don't think it's a common enough configuration that we'd find a bunch of people out there with them who would have anecdotal umm anecdotes about it. Which is a disadvantage in my mind. Compared to one with an actual MHI 16g compressor wheel.

When it comes to the turbo, another thing about it just in general is the thing about how much exhaust energy a turbo needs to get really pumping. Yours wants to go pretty hard already with only 27% throttle and ~4000 rpm. A bigger turbo, mainly one with a bigger turbine housing (like 8cm instead of 7cm) and a bigger turbine wheel will need more exhaust flow to get rowdy.
So for an example, an FP Green UHF 57S for DSM turbo has an 8cm turbine housing, a bigger turbine wheel, and the compressor cover has large anti-surge ports around the compressor inlet which are supposed to reduce and soften any surge that might happen. I would expect it to be less pushy than your current turbo at 27% throttle and 4000 rpm.

I see you are doing flex fuel with about 78% ethanol, and speed density, and some 272 cams, so it's not like you would be totally wasting the higher flowing capability of a larger turbo like the Green. And maybe a turbo that is hyperactive at low throttle settings is not what you want, but it seems to be what you have. So that is why I mention the idea of larger turbos.
Maybe you want to keep a more stock look under the hood for CA visual inspections? Is that part of what you have to think about?

Oh I just reread this and realized I never actually responded!

I think this is the first one Jus has built this way. Not sure why he did it. At the time I was welcoming the potential upgrade. Still do in fact. Im okay with having to tune around it. Suppose that leaves more on the table if I can use it in the future.

I would like to keep this one. Its freshy built and the rest of the engines internals are stock and also freshly rebuilt so I dont want to put something larger on it that may tempt me to go deeper into the engine.

Under the hood is very not stock looking. Im way past the point of keeping that look. So that is not something im going for at all.

 

[pagosa dsm]

Quick update to this.
I purchased one of those tornado things with extreme skepticism. It was only 20 bucks so I figured why the hell not.
Well, it didn't completely fix the surging but it sure did help. I installed it between my intercooler outlet and the 90 coming off the throttle body. I have a large silicone coupler there where the GM MAF used to be so I figured it would be a good place to install it.
I think between that and slightly limiting boost at lower RPM I can consider this good enough.
Appreciate the help from everyone here.

I installed mine in the intake tube to the inlet of the turbo. that is what Ford and CAT did. I found out about this fix on the GM Buick site.

 

[We're on Boost]

I installed mine in the intake tube to the inlet of the turbo. that is what Ford and CAT did. I found out about this fix on the GM Buick site.

Yes, at the turbo inlet is what I thought from your post.
Do you have a link directly to what you saw about it on the GM Buick site?

 

[silentsnow31802]

Well I guess im going to be getting a second one and putting it in the right place!
I assumed since the surging was between the turbo and the throttle body thats where the thingy should go.

 

[pagosa dsm]

Yes, at the turbo inlet is what I thought from your post.
Do you have a link directly to what you saw about it on the GM Buick site?

sorry I don't have a link. you guys are making a mountain out of an ant hill. measure your ID of your intake tube and install it.

 

[silentsnow31802]

sorry I don't have a link. you guys are making a mountain out of an ant hill. measure your ID of your intake tube and install it.

Are we?
You suggested this tornado thing and you said put it in your intake so I did just that.
Turns out "intake tube" meant between the turbo and filter not turbo and engine so I said I need to get another. Thats pretty much it....

 

[pagosa dsm]

Are we?
You suggested this tornado thing and you said put it in your intake so I did just that.
Turns out "intake tube" meant between the turbo and filter not turbo and engine so I said I need to get another. Thats pretty much it....

I checked my post, and I said intake pipe, not intake.

 

[silentsnow31802]

I checked my post, and I said intake pipe, not intake.

No no no. You literally said intake tube in post 113. You changed it to pipe and gave a description after I had said I bought it and installed it.

I don't know why we're arguing about this. There is no reason. I admitted I misunderstood you original suggestion and said I would remedy it.