1G No start - believe fuel issue

[DSMReadyPerformance]

Background on the car: rebuilt bottom end, stock head. Car cranks over, I've test spark on all cylinders and have a strong spark. I'm getting fuel to the rail (not sure of pressure) and timing belt was checked by myself and another local dsmer. Set engine to tdc and re installed the C.A.S. with the notches lined up. Sprayed gas into the throttle body and car acts like it wants to start until the gas is no longer there. I'm getting 12.8 volts at the injector harness (charger hooked to battery) drained gas tank and put 7 gallons of fresh 93 in. Pulled CAS and spun it by hand I THINK I can hear the injectors clicking I'm not entirely sure. I'm not sure if the injectors are firing and I'm not sure if I have good pressure. Any ideas? Tips? Advice? Would be GREATLY appreciated.

 

[BLACK'98DSM]

Have you tested the injectors?

 

[DSMReadyPerformance]

Have you tested the injectors?

How do you recommend going about this? Are you referring to testing the resistance or testing the spray pattern? I'd like to find out if they are spraying at all

 

[ThunderChild]

You can manually clean them once removed by pulsing the injector with a 9v battery and back flowing some solvent through the injector. That will at least tell you if they're opening, and flush out some junk if it's in there.

Otherwise you can send them off for professional cleaning for $15-25 per injector. Do you have a second set of known good injectors you could borrow and swap in to test? I know my stock 450s were varnished badly from sitting when I got the car, and it took a couple baths in the sonic cleaner at my college to get them to flow right.

 

[DSMReadyPerformance]

You can manually clean them once removed by pulsing the injector with a 9v battery and back flowing some solvent through the injector. That will at least tell you if they're opening, and flush out some junk if it's in there.

Otherwise you can send them off for professional cleaning for $15-25 per injector. Do you have a second set of known good injectors you could borrow and swap in to test? I know my stock 450s were varnished badly from sitting when I got the car, and it took a couple baths in the sonic cleaner at my college to get them to flow right.

Unfortunately I dont have any that I can swap in. But I'll definitely try the 9volt trick in a few days when I can get over there! Anything else I should look for or anything else it could be? Also I've printed out and followed the "how to diagnose a no start" article. I've followed most of that article as well.

 

[ThunderChild]

If you have spark and compression, fuel is the only thing, and if you have rail pressure you should he able to get it to run, even if it is a bit low.

 

[DSMReadyPerformance]

If you have spark and compression, fuel is the only thing, and if you have rail pressure you should he able to get it to run, even if it is a bit low.

Yeah.. I'm just not quite sure what else could be preventing me from getting fuel into the cylinders. I'll have to check and see if I can get my injectors to spray with a 9v. But I mean what are the odds of all my injectors going bad at the same time or all being clogged? If I goto test them and they do spray a good pattern that else is left to look for? Ecu? Cas? Pressure?

 

[DSMPT]

Another basic things, should re-check the spark plug wiring order. even you have strong sparks, engine wouldn't fire up if the timing is wrong. Try to connect them oppositely and see if it fires up. I don't know how you are mounting the coil pack but if relocating the coil pack it sometimes makes you confused. And also check the spark plugs after cranking, if they are wet with fresh gas.

 

[DSMReadyPerformance]

Another basic things, should re-check the spark plug wiring order. even you have strong sparks, engine wouldn't fire up if the timing is wrong. Try to connect them oppositely and see if it fires up. I don't know how you are mounting the coil pack but if relocating the coil pack it sometimes makes you confused. And also check the spark plugs after cranking, if they are wet with fresh gas.

I have my spark plugs wired like in the diagram below and when I pull the plugs after cranking they are dry which I another reason I believe I'm not getting fuel into the cylinders.

 

[ThunderChild]

If the car sat for a long period then the injectors getting stuck isnt far fetched, and if you have fuel to the rail then there's not alot of other options.

Or the cas isn't functioning, ecm injector driver's are bad or the wiring in-between is jacked up.

Agree with @DSMPT as well, checking the basics can't hurt.

 

[DSMReadyPerformance]

If the car sat for a long period then the injectors getting stuck isnt far fetched, and if you have fuel to the rail then there's not alot of other options.

Or the cas isn't functioning, ecm injector driver's are bad or the wiring in-between is jacked up.

Agree with @DSMPT as well, checking the basics can't hurt.

The car has sat for quite a while so I will definitely check the to see if the injectors spray with the 9v. Also will look up the testing procedures for the CAS and test the ect while I'm at it. Just trying to think of all possibilities of what could be happening so when I goto work on it I can have a plan for what to check and test. The wiring is getting about 12.8v on each connector so the wiring should be good, unless the ecu drivers are bad. Is that something I would be able to see if I open the ecu?

 

[ThunderChild]

Possibly, but visually it can be difficult for the untrained eye, and I couldn't begin to tell you where to look, other than check for corrosion, burnt circuits and leaking caps. The drivers also send the negative signal to the injectors so you're aware, and 12.8 seems like good voltage on the positive side of the injectors.

 

[motomattx]

Leave the key on and ground the negative side of the injector connector while its plugged in, then pull that plug out of the cylinder and see if its wet or smells of gasoline, its likely the ecu.

 

[DSMReadyPerformance]

These are all good feedback and I'll be trying them all. Yes I'm aware the ecu is what grounds the injectors I just ran out of time before I could test the ground side. Thank you all for the feedback and hopefully I can get it to start in the next few days when I goto work on it or at least know why it's not starting.
So far I have:
-test grounds on injectors/ Harness. Use a test light on pos. And ground it on the injector harness and crank the car to see if it flashes. (Not sure if that'll work with high impedance injectors?) That should tell me if the ecu drivers are bad, correct?

-with the key on ground the injector to see if it sprays/ pull spark plug see if it smells like gas.

-if all else fails pull injectors and test with a 9v battery and some carb cleaner.

-test and check wiring to engine coolant temp sensor. (Harness was broke there when I got the car but I always thought bad ect would dump fuel into the cylinders not prevent it?)

-open ecu look for signs of damage, ect.

 

[DSMReadyPerformance]

So I got a chance to ride over and work on the talon. And I still believe it's a fuel issue? Maybe?

• I ohmed the ect and it came out to 1580 ohms.
• Tried reversing the wiring to the ect sensor (dont have a plug and dont know which wire goes to which pin so tried both ways)
• I unplugged the injector harnesses and hooked leads to a 9v battery and to each injector they all clicked.

It still just cranks over and over but with fuel sprayed into the intake it fires right up.

Anymore input or advice?? Thank you!

 

[90PNWTSI]

When this happened to me it was the ect. As I was Stripping the wires for new spade connectors I noticed The wires were corroded (straight up green!) I stripped back more and more and more every time I had corrosion. I ended up pulling the two pins for the ect at the ecu and ran new wires to the sensor. Fired up first try after that. But I’m far from an expert at anything just so happened to be my problem. hopefully it helps you some best of luck man!

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I have found the same thing on my wiring to the temp switch, lots of green. I put a new pigtail on with about 4-5" of new wire once I found good copper. Mine were VERY brittle also. It is an important sensor that the ECU uses and will cause no start problems so make sure it is good and has a good connector.

 

[DSMReadyPerformance]

I already tested the ect sensor with a dvom it read 1580 ohms I'm not sure if that is considered in spec or not. And I re wired the ect by peeling more wire back and got good copper. Ive wired it both ways and it didnt seem to make a difference. I'm not sure what else to look for as far as diagnosing what's wrong.. I really dont wanna throw parts at it I'd like to diagnose the problem first if anyone has any insight

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

No....please don't be that guy, the "just start changing stuff" guy. Be patient, we are trying. I bet it comes down to something simple like a bad or no ground thing.....something easy.
Have you pulled a plug wire off and put a sparkplug in it to watch for spark as you are cranking? It has to be laying on a ground but would give you visual confirmation.
Firing order correct? Things that come to mind......

 

[DSMReadyPerformance]

No....please don't be that guy, the "just start changing stuff" guy. Be patient, we are trying. I bet it comes down to something simple like a bad or no ground thing.....something easy.
Have you pulled a plug wire off and put a sparkplug in it to watch for spark as you are cranking? It has to be laying on a ground but would give you visual confirmation.
Firing order correct? Things that come to mind......

Yes I've already tested spark on all cylinders. I'm also getting fuel to the rail
Tested the injectors with 9v battery
Drained old gas and put in fresh gas
Also post #9 has a diagram of my firing order

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Humor me and try the firing order of 1-3-4-2, you can always change it back. This just seems to simple to be something complicated.
Everything you have done is right. If I were still scratching my head I would pull 1 injector out and put some carb spray or WD40 in a 3" pc of gas line, attach it to the injector and put some air pressure to the gas line and click the injector with the 9v battery. I do that to pickle injectors and to clean them if it is minimal. At least you would SEE it spraying and know that it works.

 

[DSMReadyPerformance]

Humor me and try the firing order of 1-3-4-2, you can always change it back. This just seems to simple to be something complicated.
Everything you have done is right. If I were still scratching my head I would pull 1 injector out and put some carb spray or WD40 in a 3" pc of gas line, attach it to the injector and put some air pressure to the gas line and click the injector with the 9v battery. I do that to pickle injectors and to clean them if it is minimal. At least you would SEE it spraying and know that it works.

I really do appreciate the replies and the help I cant thank you enough for trying to help me out.
I'm going over to work on it in a few hours later. I will pull the injectors out and spray some carb cleaner through them with a 9v and see what happens. Also I'll try your firing order. (Your referring to the valve cover order correct?)but just to know be cause I gotta ask Can I ask why you think that order will work?

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

We had a firing order issue this weekend when my son drove 2 hrs to "tune" the car and ended up the car wasn't even READY to be tuned so he had to play the same game but it was a 6 bolt in a 2g swap. 2 hrs of messing with it and being with me on the phone several times, it finally came down to the firing order and it was acting like yours, although I wasn't there in person. Its just a easy test.
See this thread...
https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/i...lug-wiring-order-for-92-talon-tsi-awd.368237/

 

[DSMReadyPerformance]

Ok will do. And if it does start with that wiring order does that mean my cas is 180° out or my wiring order was just wrong?..
Anything else you might say to check, test or look for when I work on it?

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Not that I can think of that others haven't covered and you tried.
If it starts, leave it alone and see how she runs. Once my son got that other car running, he found out that the clutch wouldn't even hold stock boost pressures so he headed home. They did the same as you like putting good gas in and trying multiple things.
We can figure out "why" if it does start and run on that firing order, later. Just trying to get the ole girl to start for you!