New 16G Dyno Numbers on C16

[Nvisabl]

I guess I should have posted a mod list:

1994 TSI AWD
Bone Stock 122k mile longblock w/ HKS Cams
FP 16g w/ FP Manifold
BR FMIC
JMF Intake
DSMlink w/ 1000cc Tuned by yours truely
VP C16
MAFT
Stock Flywheel
Still has Balance Shafts

You big liar. I know your secrets <magic pixie dust> , No really congrats now lets make a big big number on that white polished turd in your garage.
Andrew has gotten all worked up again , man put 80lbs on him and send him to MMA

 

[danl]

So how much did your nearly stock evo put down, you seemed to have left that part out during your rant?

315 hp (no tach pickup that day so no torque) on nates dyno and 301hp and 315tq on CBRD's mustang dyno in York PA. Catback, MBC, and of course my tune. 92 octane, no knock, boost tapering to 17psi up top. If my car is the control and the variables are the dyno, nates dyno is closely matched to a "low reading" mustang dyno and isn't one of the "overly optimistic" dynos.

 

[h8r]

Great numbers... With that said... I don't race dynos, I could care less if he made 550 whp on the 16g. A dyno is a tuning tool. I do know their are many tricks one could play to cause the dyno to read funny, Just like plenty of tricks in making cars faster. I say, see what it traps, what it weighs and what the e.t is that tells you it is not only making power but making it in the right place.

To the member that was talking about micronite..think crane owns that name ( depending on the manu. some call it something different). It does make for less loss of power in the drivetrain. I was thinking with EVERY MOVING PART IN THE DRIVE LINE BEING CRYO TREATED AND COATED, their is plenty of power to be had.
I think his numbers could be better utilized on an engine dyno in complete form with all of the accessories he runs. Doing this would in fact tell you where the gain was made. I am betting it is in the clutch, trans, diffs...etc.... then we could say damn.... Curt Brown managed to only have 9% drive train loss on the dyno.....

Keep up the great work guys!


:mitsu:

 

[Ravenous]

9% drivetrain loss WTF, is that even possible? Oh show me your secrets you holy dsm man you .

 

[turboglenn]

Did the car have any ignition amplifier or spark box at all? Or was it just a good set of wires on stock coils?

 

[Black_Bullet]

9% drivetrain loss WTF, is that even possible? Oh show me your secrets you holy dsm man you .

How?....You can only take away so much drive train lose.....Before it isnt awd anymore that is.

 

[outlawdsm]

Was this car dyno'ed AWD or just FWD? What is the correction factor?
Hard to believe these numbers without a port job on the head, but I DO believe you guys. Its amazing how much the general DSM community doesnt know.
Keep up the good work!

 

[h8r]

9% drivetrain loss WTF, is that even possible? Oh show me your secrets you holy dsm man you .

Thats figure was just pulled from thin air... The point was that then we would have something else to pick his brain on how he does his magic. I do believe their are somethings like that helps perform as it does. Think of it as a collective package (much like weight savings) not one "magic part" makes the difference, it's all in the combination!

 

[h8r]

How?....You can only take away so much drive train lose.....Before it isnt awd anymore that is.

I agree, what clutch is being used, what dif, WHAT GEARS, etc... Is it a faceplated clutchless trans, or something like that?

 

[pickens]

Or since its on a dyno, he can simply blow compressed cold air directly into the turbo inlet. That'll bump up horsepower!

Obviously, something is up that's not quite on the straight and arrow.

It amazes me that someone would post a dyno sheet showing that they broken records and accomplished what no other major player has been able to do, then talks down to those who question and ask for some details and proof.

This reminds me of all the "Bush" type people who can't think for themselves and don't dare question the administration.

 

[h8r]

Or since its on a dyno, he can simply blow compressed cold air directly into the turbo inlet. That'll bump up horsepower!

Obviously, something is up that's not quite on the straight and arrow.

It amazes me that someone would post a dyno sheet showing that they broken records and accomplished what no other major player has been able to do, then talks down to those who question and ask for some details and proof.

This reminds me of all the "Bush" type people who can't think for themselves and don't dare question the administration.

Or you could tamper with the weather settings on the dyno, put a heater by the thermometer. I don't think that is what happened.

 

[wishihadatalon]

Or since its on a dyno, he can simply blow compressed cold air directly into the turbo inlet. That'll bump up horsepower!

Obviously, something is up that's not quite on the straight and arrow.

It amazes me that someone would post a dyno sheet showing that they broken records and accomplished what no other major player has been able to do, then talks down to those who question and ask for some details and proof.

This reminds me of all the "Bush" type people who can't think for themselves and don't dare question the administration.

Major player? You do know that Nate (original poster) is Brent Rau's crew chief right? I don't think the players get much larger than the worlds fastest DSM period. Everyone needs to realize that there will always be someone faster, and that some people do things better than them. Think about the way you are acting, it is very similar to rednecks talking about 4 cylinders. No one ever thought that a tiny 2.0 motor would ever power a chassis down the 1/4 mile in less than 7 seconds, but that has been proved wrong.

 

[rrussell]

No one ever thought that a tiny 2.0 motor would ever power a chassis down the 1/4 mile in less than 7 seconds, but that has been proved wrong.

Its all done with smoke and mirrors. I saw it on the Discovery channel.

 

[outlawdsm]

Was this car dyno'ed AWD or just FWD? What is the correction factor?

 

[DSM90AWD]

However, unlike the good ole days my mouth is zipped tied shut (New Years resolution that I am sticking to)!

I call SHENANNIGANS.. and this thread was believable to this point too

And great post by tkelly regarding factors (rotating mass) that would definitely contribute to improved dyno performance. Could also mention that most compressor maps stop at ~65% efficiency. Does this mean they do not operate past that.. no. If you have a HUGE/EFFICIENT FMIC and low inlet temps, a turbo could do alot more. Attention to detail and using only those parts that have proven to work is what it's all about.

Regardless of the Dyno results, I'd bet money Curt will meet his Drag goals with the car as his track record for doing has been unblemished

 

[dragonov_elite]

Congrats. Now waiting for a track day video.

 

[whitedawg]

They are just using the dyno as a tuning tool and to make sure they have their set-up maximized. The real proving ground is at the track where Curt Brown has proven it many times.

 

[dsm-onster]

The fp 16g come with a larger compressor cover and a non-MHI turbine housing. Via stealth316.com, we all have the results of what a larger cover can do with a compressor wheel with nearly identical trim/diameters. Is this what an evo3 16g can do?

The evo3 16g and the evo8 16g have identical compressor major and minor diameters. They also have identical blade thickness, hub diameter, and fin curvature. They spin counter-clockwise. The Coriolis effect in the northern hemesphere would cause the evo8 16gto flow slightly more But that's a stretch. . . That larger compressor housing is what really helps it push more slightly more air than the evo3. The td05hr evo8 compressor map we already have is a fingerprint of the absolute most of what an evo3 16g can do. So yea, we do have a compressor map. Anyone saying differently has not seen and measured both these compressor wheels (including me about a month past). This dyno report is off the charts. Even at 0.31 m^2/sec which is far off of the 65% efficiency line of the evo 8 compressor, you're looking at 657 cfm or times .068 you showing around 45 lbs/min. No where NEAR 450 whp.

Unless turbocharger break specific fuel consumption is something different for curt brown, 0.60-0.65 is what the best have to work with. You've mentioned low 11s a/f ratio and 1000cc injectors. What was the peak % IDC again?

The turbine can be clipped. This costs $90. It's a cheap way to surprise with a small turbo. Nevertheless, so many know that the evo3 gt turbo has a larger a/r turbine housing. FP uses a non-mhi chinese-based housing. Is this housing larger/flow more than the original 7cm^2 housing? There are too many questions.

Why post the dyno numbers, then turn around and say that secrets are what made this work? If you don't post the secrets, those interested have to go to your shop to get the secrets. Will you let them leave without a bill?

BTW, someone was yacking about manhood. . . Any real man doesn't piss and whine about a challenge to results that defy convention. This certainly goes beyond what a compressor map with a larger cover demonstrates vs. mhi evo3 16g. If it's "not about the flow" (which is foolish to claim), this certainly goes beyond the typical 10.2-10.6 hp per lb/min. Anyone who knows where they stand and why would understand and respect the challenge. Oh, and all y'alls trunks are bigger than mine. But I run welded motormounts and no balance shafts, so my wife smiles riding shotgun.

 

[Black_Bullet]

The fp 16g come with a larger compressor cover and a non-MHI turbine housing. Via stealth316.com, we all have the results of what a larger cover can do with a compressor wheel with nearly identical trim/diameters. Is this what an evo3 16g can do?

The evo3 16g and the evo8 16g have identical compressor major and minor diameters. They also have identical blade thickness, hub diameter, and fin curvature. They spin counter-clockwise. The Coriolis effect in the northern hemesphere would cause the evo8 16gto flow slightly more But that's a stretch. . . That larger compressor housing is what really helps it push more slightly more air than the evo3. The td05hr evo8 compressor map we already have is a fingerprint of the absolute most of what an evo3 16g can do. So yea, we do have a compressor map. Anyone saying differently has not seen and measured both these compressor wheels (including me about a month past). This dyno report is off the charts. Even at 0.31 m^2/sec which is far off of the 65% efficiency line of the evo 8 compressor, you're looking at 657 cfm or times .068 you showing around 45 lbs/min. No where NEAR 450 whp.

Unless turbocharger break specific fuel consumption is something different for curt brown, 0.60-0.65 is what the best have to work with. You've mentioned low 11s a/f ratio and 1000cc injectors. What was the peak % IDC again?

The turbine can be clipped. This costs $90. It's a cheap way to surprise with a small turbo. Nevertheless, so many know that the evo3 gt turbo has a larger a/r turbine housing. FP uses a non-mhi chinese-based housing. Is this housing larger/flow more than the original 7cm^2 housing? There are too many questions.

Why post the dyno numbers, then turn around and say that secrets are what made this work? If you don't post the secrets, those interested have to go to your shop to get the secrets. Will you let them leave without a bill?

BTW, someone was yacking about manhood. . . Any real man doesn't piss and whine about a challenge to results that defy convention. This certainly goes beyond what a compressor map with a larger cover demonstrates vs. mhi evo3 16g. If it's "not about the flow" (which is foolish to claim), this certainly goes beyond the typical 10.2-10.6 hp per lb/min. Anyone who knows where they stand and why would understand and respect the challenge. All y'alls trunks are bigger than mine. But I run welded motormounts and no balance shafts, so my wife smiles riding shotgun.

And truth is, this is nothing more than just thinking logically...

 

[whitedawg]

The fp 16g come with a larger compressor cover and a non-MHI turbine housing. Via stealth316.com, we all have the results of what a larger cover can do with a compressor wheel with nearly identical trim/diameters. Is this what an evo3 16g can do?

The evo3 16g and the evo8 16g have identical compressor major and minor diameters. They also have identical blade thickness, hub diameter, and fin curvature. They spin counter-clockwise. The Coriolis effect in the northern hemesphere would cause the evo8 16gto flow slightly more But that's a stretch. . . That larger compressor housing is what really helps it push more slightly more air than the evo3. The td05hr evo8 compressor map we already have is a fingerprint of the absolute most of what an evo3 16g can do. So yea, we do have a compressor map. Anyone saying differently has not seen and measured both these compressor wheels (including me about a month past). This dyno report is off the charts. Even at 0.31 m^2/sec which is far off of the 65% efficiency line of the evo 8 compressor, you're looking at 657 cfm or times .068 you showing around 45 lbs/min. No where NEAR 450 whp.

Unless turbocharger break specific fuel consumption is something different for curt brown, 0.60-0.65 is what the best have to work with. You've mentioned low 11s a/f ratio and 1000cc injectors. What was the peak % IDC again?

The turbine can be clipped. This costs $90. It's a cheap way to surprise with a small turbo. Nevertheless, so many know that the evo3 gt turbo has a larger a/r turbine housing. FP uses a non-mhi chinese-based housing. Is this housing larger/flow more than the original 7cm^2 housing? There are too many questions.

Why post the dyno numbers, then turn around and say that secrets are what made this work? If you don't post the secrets, those interested have to go to your shop to get the secrets. Will you let them leave without a bill?

BTW, someone was yacking about manhood. . . Any real man doesn't piss and whine about a challenge to results that defy convention. This certainly goes beyond what a compressor map with a larger cover demonstrates vs. mhi evo3 16g. If it's "not about the flow" (which is foolish to claim), this certainly goes beyond the typical 10.2-10.6 hp per lb/min. Anyone who knows where they stand and why would understand and respect the challenge. All y'alls trunks are bigger than mine. But I run welded motormounts and no balance shafts, so my wife smiles riding shotgun.

I disagree, I've seen dyno's on dsmlink where lbs/min X 10= whp.

 

[red91gst]

WOW!

How did I miss 2 pages of BS in four days out of the country.

FINAL POST:

Secrets are secrets. There are reasons why our car and Curt's are faster than everyone else, and if we shared everything that would defeat the purpose of our research.

The car made the power on an AWD dynojet, STD correct which was 1.03 (3%). It was on a ported E316g. No special turbine housing, comp cover, or bigger compressor wheel. A goddamn E316g.

We don't have to prove this to anyone, and when you see the car at the track this summer you'll know that the numbers are correct.

Now get off your keyboards and try n catch us .

 

[BGGSTin]

Or since its on a dyno, he can simply blow compressed cold air directly into the turbo inlet. That'll bump up horsepower!

Obviously, something is up that's not quite on the straight and arrow.

It amazes me that someone would post a dyno sheet showing that they broken records and accomplished what no other major player has been able to do, then talks down to those who question and ask for some details and proof.

This reminds me of all the "Bush" type people who can't think for themselves and don't dare question the administration.

Major player? You do know that Nate (original poster) is Brent Rau's crew chief right? I don't think the players get much larger than the worlds fastest DSM period. Everyone needs to realize that there will always be someone faster, and that some people do things better than them. Think about the way you are acting, it is very similar to rednecks talking about 4 cylinders. No one ever thought that a tiny 2.0 motor would ever power a chassis down the 1/4 mile in less than 7 seconds, but that has been proved wrong.

OH SNAP SON...YOU'VE JUST BEEN OWNED!!

Come back with something good, because from my point of view your foots already in your mouth.

P.S. There were no dyno tricks...it has a fan on the front mount, which is done anywhere and that's about it. It was done in awd trim. There's nothing to be hidden, I'll make sure I make documentaries of everything we do now.

 

[wortdog]

Airflow is generally just an estimation of maximum HP, there are a lot of other factors that go into it, especially on a chassis dyno. I'm not saying this is what they did (or that they did anything like this) but an example would be a gear treatment I had read about in a certain RWD magazine not too long ago. They micro surface finished the gears in the differential and gained 6hp, at the wheels. If you do that in the two differentials, the transmission, add in lower rotating mass of lighter wheels and drive shaft, you could easily be seeing more than 30 extra hp to the tires. Just in the drive train alone you can free up a lot of power robbing friction, and who knows what people making 270hp with 16g's are leaving on the table every where else in their combination. A car is a complete system, not just an engine.

As stated before, airflow is just an estimate of hp, change your timing, change your fuel trims, change your compression ratio, change how much heat the engine wastes, etc. etc. and you'll be making more or less.

It's entirely possible this is real, it's also possible that there is some trickery going on. Just because it hasn't happened before doesn't mean it can't! It's hard to say either way until it runs the 1/4 mile and it's weight is given. You can't really fake 1/4 mile runs : D

Definitely, and don't forget things like engine and drivetrain fluids, maybe a twin disk clutch, using springs on the brake calipers to pull the pads all the way off the rotors, etc. I'm betting the wheels and AL driveshaft are two of the larger 'little fractions' that are adding up here. The driveshaft also eliminates some bearing friction along with the drop in rotational inertia.

Also, REM Isf process for the win

 

[3literpwr]

I think he should drop in a 32mm restrictor and come play with the big boys in the woods... No more dyno racing...

 

[red91gst]

I think he should drop in a 32mm restrictor and come play with the big boys in the woods... No more dyno racing...

Hell no! haha

When my pretty car breaks we trailer it home. When yours break you drive it with rods hanging out of the block, broken wheels, bashed suspension, and half on fire to the next stage.

I'll stick to 1/4 mile stuff