New 16G Dyno Numbers on C16

[dsm-onster]

Someof us were focusing on fuel tuning to get the percent IDC so that we could calculate the airflow of the ev3 16g.

ambient temps with 22 psi by red line of 7500rpms with 2 litres of displacement:

PV=nRT
n=PV/RT

R =.08206 or gas constant
T = 25.55*C or 298.7K
P = 2.5atm
V = [(7500rpms X 2Litres)/2] X 100% engine VE
n = number moles per minute

n=765 mol/min
n=12.75 mol/sec

Effective molar mass of air = .0289kg/mol (this is immaterial of volume. This based on a particle number or actual mass). Aiflow of this system = .37kg/sec

1kg = 2.2046lbs on earth

.37kg/sec X 2.2046lbs = .816 or 49lbs/min

Further,

The 20g map goes to .32m^3/sec. After 144krpms compressor speed.

1m^3/min = 35.3ft^3/sec

.32 m^3/sec X (60 seconds/minute) = 677.8 ft^3/min or 678cfm

678cfm, the limit of the 20g compressor, is under 49 lbs/min at atmosphering pressure and 80* intake temps. ??? Either Boyle, Charles, and Avgadro are wrong or . . .​

But nevertheless, let's not confuse 'strength' with 'technique'. . . personally, I've come full circle. That's just the compressor flow. The airflow is there for us to do what we can. Tuning isn't everything. By tune I hope you don't mean fuel and ignition timing. The best tuner in the world can't tune out lots of pumping losses and inefficient use of fuel. **Unless he has control over other event's. . . Fuel injector on time (not dead time), etc.

 

[Spyder4g64]

I just dont understand. Anyone can tune a car, theres not really any huge tricks. Just because he's a good tuner doesnt mean he can just magically make more power than other people can. I dont see how a turbo with that low of airflow can make that power.

My brother is running 28psi and 27* timing with 272's on his 16g with e85 and I would estimate him at around 380whp. Is that dyno known to show higher numbers than normal. Some dynos can show up to 20% more power than others on the same car.

I hate how everyone always says we are dealing with Curt Brown. What special stuff does he do to get this extra 50hp just from tuning. Also how the hell you break 400whp on pump gas, if thats what Im reading right??????

Doesn't E85 store less energy than gasoline?

 

[Spyder4g64]

If this is really what you think you obviously don't know me

Holy Shit, it was a joke... I thought you guys would understand that much.

The ONLY reason I started this thread was to let the tooners community know what we have done, and that it CAN be done. NOT to argue about it.

I'm sure you guys can relate. Years of research into build DSMs, just to be questioned on the validity of your work.

Congrats on your accomplishment. I can only dream of making that much power on a 16g..

 

[twenty5psi]

Someof us were focusing on fuel tuning to get the percent IDC so that we could calculate the airflow of the ev3 16g.

ambient temps with 22 psi by red line of 7500rpms with 2 litres of displacement:

PV=nRT
n=PV/RT

R =.08206 or gas constant
T = 25.55*C or 298.7K
P = 2.5atm
V = [(7500rpms X 2Litres)/2] X 100% engine VE
n = number moles per minute

n=765 mol/min
n=12.75 mol/sec

Effective molar mass of air = .0289kg/mol (this is immaterial of volume. This based on a particle number or actual mass). Aiflow of this system = .37kg/sec

1kg = 2.2046lbs on earth

.37kg/sec X 2.2046lbs = .816 or 49lbs/min

Further,

The 20g map goes to .32m^3/sec. After 144krpms compressor speed.

1m^3/min = 35.3ft^3/sec

.32 m^3/sec X (60 seconds/minute) = 677.8 ft^3/min or 678cfm

678cfm, the limit of the 20g compressor, is under 49 lbs/min at atmosphering pressure and 80* intake temps. ??? Either Boyle, Charles, and Avgadro are wrong or . . .​

But nevertheless, let's not confuse 'strength' with 'technique'. . . personally, I've come full circle. That's just the compressor flow. The airflow is there for us to do what we can. Tuning isn't everything. By tune I hope you don't mean fuel and ignition timing. The best tuner in the world can't tune out lots of pumping losses and inefficient use of fuel. **Unless he has control over other event's. . . Fuel injector on time (not dead time), etc.

It's nice to see someone actually use scientific data and laws of physics to try and disprove this rather than those that say it can't be done. Kudos to you!

 

[dsm-onster]

I'm not disproving it. I'm disproving the speculated airflow of the evo316g that will wave through the masses with these results.

Whether or not TPG and Curt Brown did this is up to your trust in the dyno results. I, for one, do not think there's anything awry in the results. I DO think there's years of racing showing up here. And little to no one else can bring their car to TPG and expect the same results. . . That's not TPG's fault. That's the car owner's fault.

 

[twenty5psi]

I'm not disproving it. I'm disproving the speculated airflow of the evo316g that will wave through the masses with these results.

Whether or not TPG and Curt Brown did this is up to your trust in the dyno results. I, for one, do not think there's anything awry in the results. I DO think there's years of racing showing up here. And little to no one else can bring their car to TPG and expect the same results. . . That's not TPG's fault. That's the car owner's fault.

I guess I wasn't concise in what I meant. By disproving, I meant that you were showing mathematical results as to how much a 16g can actually flow. My post was supposed to convey that you actually went through and analyzed something vs someone stating that it can't be done. I don't disagree at all with the numbers the car has put down. I understand though that it takes a lot of tricks to do so that many people do not possess. The years of racing and tinkering do show very well in this case!

 

[dsm-onster]

I guess I wasn't concise in what I meant. By disproving, I meant that you were showing mathematical results as to how much a 16g can actually flow.

Can it flow that much? Would MHI fudge their compressor maps 7-10 lbs/min!!!?

 

[twenty5psi]

Can it flow that much? Would MHI fudge their compressor maps 7-10 lbs/min!!!?

Did you use Kelvin for Pv=nrT? The compressor map shows efficiency! While this may have been efficient for Curt, it won't be efficient for the masses!

 

[Boo5t_Addict]

I think he did use kelvin. The ideal gas law only applies when kelvin is used as the standard for temperature.

 

[dsm-onster]

Yea. T = 25.55*C or 298.7K. 25.55*C = 78*F ambient temp.

I don't think for anyone, the compressor map shows efficiency at .37kg/sec or 22psi at 7500rpms, 100% volumetric effciency and 298.7Kelvin.

325.5 L/sec = (12.75 mol/sec X .08206{gas constant} X 298.7K ) / .96atm{based on elevation of Morgantown, WV}

325L/sec = .325m^3/sec

The TD05HR 16g6 compressor, reverse scroll of the evo3 wheel. Exact same shape but with a more efficient housing:

 

[Mitsu725]

Dam this guy is making 500 and I thought my numbers were good, , I made 332.6 uncorrected...

 

[frosh29]

Airflow doesn't make horsepower, I posted this in the other thread. If you have Dsmlink get a datalog of a good run, then pull 15 degrees of timing and add 10% fuel. Airflow won't change, but horsepower will. It makes the whole airflow argument irrelevant, you can flow 50 lbs/min and make 250whp or 500whp.

This is such a good point.... you can tune your car for less power with Link. People here usually are tuning for more power though, not less. I think that's why people (and some shops) have a difficult time with effectively tuning their cars. Just turning timing up and removing fuel will not suffice for these cars.

Believe it or not, there are people out there that actually know about cars. I have worked on and built my own Talon and can safely say I only know about 10% of what there is out there, and that's a high estimate!! Nothing can make up for Experience, nothing. Link has been proven as a valuable tuning tool and in the right hands has taken cars faster than I want to go. I have seen poor tunes, I have given my car poor tunes, and then I have taken the time to put a nice tune down and you can feel the power difference. N/m the racing gas guys...not a lot of knock there. If the configuration is right, numbers like this can happen.

To be short, the people that argue these numbers want more proof than a web post/dyno charts and the people putting these types of numbers down want some type of privacy, not only in the parts used, but also in the other configurations of the car. I can understand both sides myself. It would be nice to see this particular vehicle at the track though, I bet it is pretty quick!

Nice car (for such a puny turbo)! I might have to take the prospective 20g and knock it down to an 18g...

Sorry for the long post.

 

[Dsmj89]

Damn what a beast of an evo3 16g. Great job.

 

[pboglio]

I think they revealed their "secret". Was a combination of radical cams, high compression, & E85. Still mind boggling though.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well c16 was used for the 499whp record. Which usually yields much more horsepower per unit airflow. But, yep, big GOOD cams free up alot of pumping loss and high compression probably increased thermal efficiency about 7-8%.