2G Need advice on turbo selection for 2.3L

[jshuman]

Hey guys,

I am to the point where its time to start purchasing parts for my new build. I was not planning on buying the turbo first, but I have come across a good deal on a new gt4088 t4 twin scroll. I am wondering if there is a better turbo for my build and my goals than this one. I would like to be comfortably into the 700whp range, and this car will be a weekend warrior at the most (driven less than 3k miles a year). Here is some info on the motor I am building:

It will be a 2.3l 6 bolt.

I will be purchasing the rotating assembly from ffwd:
-Groden aluminum rods
-Mahle pistons
-Butchered stroker crank.- yes I am aware that butchering weakens the crank.

Head:
-I have not decided whether or not to have it ported.
-Most likely I will use 280 cams with adjustable cam gears unless I find something better
-New valves and seals, ect.

Engine Management:
-DSMLink v3 for now

I think thats most of the big stuff.
Anyways, I could you some thoughts, advice, and opinions about this turbo or something that might work better for me.

Oh, and please don't just tell me to get a holset hx--. Explanations would be great.

Thanks,
Justin

 

[andy4g63]

Sonds perfect. There is guy, who is wiseman here on Tuners. His name is twicks69 and hehas/had similar setup. He posted awesome results-over 750WHP and 696Tq, with early spool up on a 2.3 L motor too. You might want to look into his setup, or get some info from him.

 

[jshuman]

I have read just about everything he has posted. That is why I started looking into the t4 twin scroll. It seems that I will be able to run a large turbo, have reasonable lag, and still have a decent powerband.
Thanks!

 

[94Jettameowpsst]

Bw S366

 

[jshuman]

I'll look into that, but could you give me reasons for that suggestion?

Also I should mention that it is .85 a/r.

 

[dsm-onster]

The 4088r is not a good choice for a comfortable 700whp. You need somethign that actually flows over 70lb/min. I could be wrong, but he's really pushed his turbo. I think you should buy a turbo that reaches it's maximum where you want to reach your goal, for the sake of spool speed and power under the curve. But you want "comfortable". So I am to assume you will be looking for maybe more later or just want the room for growth just incase.

YOu would do better with the gt4202r, hx50-55 or, the S370-372. Either sits at or over 90lb/min and have enough turbine to keep up with the flow. That's a 'comfortable' flow range for your goal. Twinscroll for all three.

 

[evileclipse909]

Build a high compression 2.3 and you'll spool even quicker.

 

[jshuman]

Yeah by comfortable I mean that I don't want to be trying to push the turbo beyond it's efficiency range. I was looking at the 4088 because he is selling it new for 300-500 less than if I bought it from a vendor.

What kind of peak power should I expect from it?

Also, what increase in lag would I see from those other choices?

Thanks for the replies

 

[Maglin]

I didn't read the reply cause you said you are getting your motor from FFWD. Talk to FFWD about your goals. They definitly know how to build high HP DSM's. I've spent a few hours on the phone when them a few years back for a customers build. IMO if I had the money I would have a fully built FFWD motor with all the works. But most people don't want to drop $15K on just a long block but with them you do get what you pay for.

 

[jshuman]

I actually have a day off for once tomorrow so I do plan on talking to them. Their site says that there can be a little wait for certain parts so I want to get things started with the rotating assembly. To respond to the comment about compression, I am planning on 9.0:1. Would you guys sugggest going to 9.5:1?

Unlike the holset 5 part thread, I am having a little trouble finding info on the bw turbos especially in regard to price. Would they be in the $1400 range?

 

[94Jettameowpsst]

BW S366 or 372 are in the 15-1800 dollar range but any turbo you run that supports that high of hp you're going to spend money.
You cant be worried about lag or boost bc either way you're going to be over 4800rpm full boost and 30+psi to achieve that goal.

I dont usually follow the "hype" but the hta 3586 is GOOD for 700+whp too

 

[jshuman]

I would be more than fine with 30+ psi before 5k. Im going to check on the pricing for a couple of the holset options as well.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

GT3582R HTA. Great spool (20psi at 4200rpms on a stroker) and excellent super fast respool on shifts.

 

[jshuman]

^Any idea what kind of power you are making on that setup?

 

[Boosted98gsx]

Dude. power doesn't mean anything. Dyno's are tuning tools, and any dyno numbers are arbitrary.

What I can tell you, is I ran an 11.6 on 93 oct and 20psi, then an 11.6 @ 125mph at 28 psi later (3200lb street car, with an open rear diff that doesn't like to launch).

 

[jshuman]

I'm definitely not only concerned with power, but in all honesty, I wont be going to the track often. Especially since I am building a stroker I know I wont be setting any kind of track records. So as of right now, horsepower is one of the only ways I have of letting you guys know what my goals are for the car.

 

[dsm-onster]

Power does truely mean everything for the subject matter or we would be running stock automobiles. Anyone that says otherwise is selling you something. Powerband, peak power, and what you have to do to get the powerband shape and peak power you want: this is the point of your thread, right?

A dyno's numeric output may not mean anything, due to operator differences, dyno brands, etc. But, Trap Speed levels the playing field, because power can be deduced *accurately* from ending speed due to the 2nd law of motion, F=ma. Boosted98gsx has put down 488hp at 28psi with a GT3582R HTA, 2.3 stroker fp3 cams, 8.8:1 CR, ERL Cast Stainless Ex Mani, Steel Magnus revised 2nd style SMIM replica "to the mm", dsmlink, and open flowing exhaust.

DSM.org HP from ET and MPH
Race Cars ET Calculator
Calculators for 1/4-Mile ET & MPH vs. HP and Weight- Stealth 316.com: with explanation.

Trap speed is not dependent on driving skills. If you know how to push the gas pedal and the motor stays together, the above calculators can be used. Your ET is driver skill specific. You'll need about 250whp more from the above setup to reach your goal. . . I wonder how much more boost and timing that will take

 

[jshuman]

So basically the HTA35r is not right for me. But yes, the point of this thread is to build a 2.3l that makes over 700whp. Actually, its finding the best turbo to reach that goal. The engine is taken care of.

The more I read about the bw turbos, the more appealing they seem.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

Over 700hp, think 40r or 42r. You're definitely in t4 range at that point (At least w/o ridiculous boost).

Bad thing about BWs is that they are very slow spooling relative to garrett turbo's of the same flow and BB. But with antilag, they make up for it. However they do have more efficient comp maps. If you're going balls to the wall meth + superEMS, then by all means go for one.

 

[JWoodley]

Bad thing about BWs is that they are very slow spooling relative to garrett turbo's of the same flow and BB.

I'm not sure where you got this information, but there are several (read 10+) guys on this forum that can attest to the exact opposite. The BW/Holset/Schwitzer turbos tend to out spool their BB counterparts. This is part of their mass appeal.

I'm sure Matt will see this post and chime in soon.

 

[1bad92awd]

At least a 40R or 42R for 700+ whp. A 35R is a good turbo no doubt, but if like you said this is not a track car and your only measures at this point are 700whp, then you will need something larger than the 35R for sure. Yes a 35R can make somewhat close to that, but that would be maxing it out which is what you said you didnt want to do.

 

[nuclearr]

I would port the head for better flow and to maximise the 280 cams your going to run.

 

[jshuman]

As for EMS, it will be dsmlink v3 for now. I dont think my tuning ability is quite ready for AEM EMS, but I am very comfortable with dsmlink and I have tuned several of my friends cars with it. I will eventually step up to EMS though. I'm just still educating myself on it. I will probably get flamed for this, but I do want to play around with 93 + meth on this setup aslo. I have hyperdrive digital alcohol injection and I would like to see what I can do with it as well. But for the 700hp numbers, I know I will have to up the octane.

Anyways, I definitely want t4. It seems like thats definitely the way to go to achieve my goals.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

I'm not sure where you got this information, but there are several (read 10+) guys on this forum that can attest to the exact opposite. The BW/Holset/Schwitzer turbos tend to out spool their BB counterparts. This is part of their mass appeal.

I'm sure Matt will see this post and chime in soon.

Please show me a video of a BW turbo still spinning a minute after the engine is shut off.

 

[JWoodley]

Please show me a video of a BW turbo still spinning a minute after the engine is shut off.

Because all the real tuners are interested in how many lbs, or in this case ounces per minute, their turbo flows when the car is off.