2G Need advice on turbo selection for 2.3L

[Boosted98gsx]

Because all the real tuners are interested in how many lbs, or in this case ounces per minute, their turbo flows when the car is off.

You completely miss the point. It's about conservation of angular momentum, RESPOOLABILITY.

 

[JWoodley]

You completely miss the point. It's about conservation of angular momentum, RESPOOLABILITY.

Gains in transient response will be negated by NLTS and/or anti-lag. OP has stated he will be running ECMlink V3.

 

[Loewen21]

You completely miss the point. It's about conservation of angular momentum, RESPOOLABILITY.

There's a big difference between respoolability, as you call it, and how fast a turbo spools initially. Whats being discussed here is which turbo will reach X psi at earlier RPMs. All tests i have seen show that the holsets or BWs will achieve earlier spool up.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

Show me a 75lb/min borg / holset that spools as fast as an HTA garrett then.

 

[JWoodley]

There's a big difference between respoolability, as you call it, and how fast a turbo spools initially. Whats being discussed here is which turbo will reach X psi at earlier RPMs. All tests i have seen show that the holsets or BWs will achieve earlier spool up.

And as far as I've seen this has proven true on a case by case basis. In terms of spool up, the advantage goes to BW/Holset.

Having ball bearings is cool, but not necessary to have great spool up characteristics as evident in the performance of these turbos. The HTA technology is nice as well, but Holsets have had billet wheels for a while now.

Why would someone choose a higher priced, "one time use"/expensive CHRA, slower spooling Garrett when they can get a less expensive, faster spooling, and in some cases higher mass flow rated turbo made by BW/Holset for less?

 

[94Jettameowpsst]

Show me a 75lb/min borg / holset that spools as fast as an HTA garrett then.

The bw 366 or w/e the equivelant turbo is to a 42r outspools and out performs the 42 by more than a hand full. Meaning it outspools the 42 also points to the fact it doesnt fall as flat on its face in between shifts either.
...and to top it off the bw is about 1000 dollars cheaper and is fully rebuildable

The HTA will outspool the borg/holset size for size....but if the borg or holset were ball bearing and non rebuildable they'd probably compete...

The HTA is overrated IMO, seriously, im not hatin, but if you wanna spend the extra money on something you probably wont need, be my guest.

 

[jshuman]

Well I would like to let the seller know today whether or not I am going to take it.
So lets talk bottom line:

4088r- great spool times, proven performance, but somewhat expensive and may fall short of my goals.

So here are the alternatives I am considering:
hx50
hx55
bw366
bw370
bw372

I have read about the hx50-55, but I do not now their prices.
I know very little about the bw turbos, and nothing of their prices.
If you guys could chime in with any of that info it would really help me out.
Also, do all of these have a t4 option?

 

[Boosted98gsx]

You are wanting to make 700hp and you're worried about COST?

[/thread]

This guy is retarded.

 

[94Jettameowpsst]

Well I would like to let the seller know today whether or not I am going to take it.
So lets talk bottom line:

4088r- great spool times, proven performance, but somewhat expensive and may fall short of my goals.

So here are the alternatives I am considering:
hx50
hx55
bw366
bw370
bw372

I have read about the hx50-55, but I do not now their prices.
I know very little about the bw turbos, and nothing of their prices.
If you guys could chime in with any of that info it would really help me out.
Also, do all of these have a t4 option?

Nothings going to be cheap.
Think when brent rau wants a turbo for his car he asks why its 5500 for a new one?

If you want power, you have to spend money, or ish's gonna break.

I have a 4088, and given it was on a stock 7 bolt, it was the laggiest thing i've ever ran.
Put it this way, in the world of efficiency, the 4088 is to garrett turbos as a 60-1 is to regular journal bearing units....its not too great.

I'm PM ing you

 

[jshuman]

Boosted98gsx,
Where did I say I am worried about cost. I am about to drop over 3k on a rotating assembly. Why dont you post somewhere else. You have done nothing to add to this thread. I dont know where I offeneded you, but what the hell man? I like to keep a running total of what everything is going to cost, and I think the only retarded thing to do would be throw my money around without first looking into all of my options. So please dont come in here and be disrespectful. Please leave this thread if you aren't going to help.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

somewhat expensive

Quoted for redundancy.

I have tried to help, but as soon as you spoke those words, you lost my assistance. Good luck in your endeavors.

 

[jshuman]

That is because it is in compratison to its holset equivalents. I never said I was not willing to pay that though. I am sorry for the confusion though. I have been saving for quite some time now. I am very prepared to spend a small fortune on this setup.

 

[tkelly27]

you lost my assistance.

Holsets you can normally find on ebay, I have no idea where to get them new. Rebuild kits can be found here
Holset Kits

There are a few places to get BW's that I know of, BEP has them
Bullseye Power Turbos
and GV is a sponsor who carries them
Borg Warner - GVautosport

 

[jshuman]

Thanks for the links, tkelly. Today is the first day off I have had in a long time, and I have been on here reading all day. I will definitely look into those.

Thanks again

 

[tkelly27]

I'm not thoroughly read up on all these turbos, I doubt I'll ever make that much power, but I think you should consider BB's not being rebuildable in your decision too. Even brand new DBB turbos fail out of the box, or just outside warranty life. To me it's not worth the extra spool up (if there is any) to have a CHRA that's only worth it's trade in value on a new one.

I think you can get the BW's in ball bearing housings, I'm not sure.

Also, the more you look around on these things... well, here is one from a guy that works at Full-Race from the lancer registry
Extended Tip Borg warner s366 TURBO ?? - Page 2 - Mitsubishi Lancer Register Forum
"We have a drag honda running the 4294R, and we just set the mph record for this turbo. Unfortunatley this turbo can not keep up with the much less expensive and much faster borgwarner S400SX equipped cars (like the entire class) so were going to do a back-to-back test of gt42R vs S400SX and see what the diff is exactly"

I wasn't even looking for it being better, just if it came in ball bearing or not. The more I find, the more confused I get!

 

[dsm-onster]

Oh, enough is enough!

Show me a 75lb/min borg / holset that spools as fast as an HTA garrett then.

I can show you a hx40 pro (flows more air than your turbo), that spools faster than your turbo though you have a 2.3L stroker. This hx40 user has a 2.0L motor. Look at the dsmlink forums much? 20psi (GM MAP verified) by 3900rpms with a 2.0L block. Don't even ask what this turbo can do at 40psi with a stroker. We all aready know.

Now, if you want to see transient response, the famed advantage of ballistic tech, take a look at Vigge's 4cylinder saab respool.

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Thanx to Vigge for messaging me some of his holset efforts from across the pond

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. . . Oh yea, that's an hx40 pro on a saab 2.3,the 70lb/min one; not a ball bearing HTA gt35r on a 2.4l motor. The world of DSMs is small and closed-minded indeed. The black line is the boost.

Ballistic tech means nothing to spool and respool compared to what efficiency does for spool and respool. Even garret falls back on their reliability factor WTF. Read up on that one. I am not going to spend an hour bashing bb turbos. But I will say that more efficient wheels need less energy to rotate them, regardless of bearing structure. That's what it means to have more numbers to the left of this =>% particular sign on the compressor map and turbine map.

Heaven forbid you from yelling, "what's the best time and trap speed a journal bearing turbo has done?"

Those that want 700whp worry about where to put their money, for a savings in one component will provide enough capital to be applied to another part in upgrade or modification. Number one rule of racing: go faster with the money you have. As you can tell some people havn't been able to understand that. You have a long way to go with your 488whp HTA gt35r with a stroker at nearly 30psi and every bolton under the sun. An hx35 user has done more than you with exactly the same boost and far less boltons and displacement with nothing more than race gas.

 

[dsm-onster]

Jshuman, the hx50-55 turbos have been putting over 700whp down for a few years now. There's a 707whp hx50powered AWD saab in europe. He ran out of injector on the dyno, hense his lower number . Still managed 9seconds and 141mph at 2900lbs. That's my suggestion. Budget to the max. The hx52 is a 90lb/min turbo. And one on tuners has already shown that, on a *2.0L*, it spools to 10psi by 4800rpms with the stock divided housing and divided runner manifold. You'll want a twinscroll setup for any turbo you choose here.

I suggest more than the 4088r. I think Tim did a FANTASTIC job with his 4088r setup. But he's even looking at a bigger BW setup now. You need 42r size and flow.

 

[jshuman]

Right now, the bw366 &370 look good as well as the hx50 and hx52. The rebuild factor is something I am giving more consideration to. I was looking at maps for the 366 and 370 and I was very impressed.

 

[jshuman]

Jshuman, the hx50-55 turbos have been putting over 700whp down for a few years now. There's a 707whp hx50powered AWD saab in europe. He ran out of injector on the dyno, hense his lower number . Still managed 9seconds and 141mph at 2900lbs. That's my suggestion. Budget to the max. The hx52 is a 90lb/min turbo. And one on tuners has already shown that, on a *2.0L*, it spools to 10psi by 4800rpms with the stock divided housing and divided runner manifold. You'll want a twinscroll setup for any turbo you choose here.

I suggest more than the 4088r. I think Tim did a FANTASTIC job with his 4088r setup. But he's even looking at a bigger BW setup now. You need 42r size and flow.

Ah, a straight response. I cant thank you enough . I agree, I dont think there is anything wrong with considering prices when I can shift the money saved on a turbo to having portwork done on the head. Anyways, for the holset considerations, it seems like the hx52 meets my needs quite well and is the cheapest option. Not to mention that it can be easily rebuilt.

 

[dsm-onster]

If you're looking there at BW turbos, look at the s372. Ther comrpessor map is close to the s370 but MUCH better high boost efficiency. Might as well have it all right?

Here's the compressor map for the hx52 (more like the s370-- that number on the bottem must be multiplied by .77 to have mass flow rendered in lb/min):

And here's the hx55 (.75 kg/sec-- kg/sec X 60sec X 2.2046 = Lb/min):

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The BW turbos are excellent at high boost! They beat out the holsets based on the maps. Shop around for the best prices too. There are several diesel vendors that sell both turbo brands. You can get a hx52 for relatively nothing on ebay. But I'm not steering you to that choice. I don't know how much boost you'll need to run. I don't know which map best suits your overall plan. WRT ebay deals, there's something to having a warranty.

 

[jshuman]

I actually would love to go with a holset partially based on their prices alone. The only thing about the 52 that I am unsure of is I have read that it is a little too laggy. Of course I understand this is not the instant spool 50trim I have been used to for the past 3 years. Honestly, I am fine with some lag as long as it scares me when it hits. Plus this will be a 2.3, so that always helps. My main issue is that it isnt so laggy with the 2.3 that I only have a 2-2.5k rpm powerband. But I do hear now that the al rod stokers can rev to 8-8.5k, but thats a whole other thread.

If I am not mistaken, the s372 is comparable to the 4202r?

 

[dsm-onster]

In comparing the compressor maps, yes.

WRT the hx52 spool, as I mentioned, the hx52 has spooled to over 10psi by 4800rpms with the 2.0L motor. But considering the 2.3 motor easily shaves 5-600rpms off the spool speed, you're looking at 10-15psi by 4200rpms with the hx52, easily! It's more like a percentage gain in spool speed, and the stroker shaves 15ish% in spool rpm, as it's about this much larger in volume.

There is a top speed racer who uses one; but he runs an open header design (non-divided runner manifold). This negates the advantage of the twinscroll design, making the twin scroll housing one GINORMIC scroll; just a rediculously huge turbine housing. It's LAGGY setup like that, as with all the turbos discussed.

Full boost comes on VERY fast with a twinscroll configuration, once positive pressure is seen. Expect a 16g-like hit after 10psi.

 

[jshuman]

Wow I don't consider 10-15psi by 4200 rmps laggy at all. I retract that staement in the previous post . I am going to call around on my lunch hour tomorrow and get some prices on that beast. I may end up with the hx52. I guess any saved money could go into the manifold and o2 housing.

 

[dsm-onster]

As long as you run a divided runner manifold. You will need to widen the bolt holes on any t4 twinscroll manifold you buy, as the hx5* series turbos have a bolt pattern slightly wider than a garrett t4. You may also have some port matching to do with the inlet ports.

 

[Maglin]

Hey Jshuman. I'm pretty sure you might have thought about it but I'm going to say it anyways. What are you going to do for your fueling? A single 255 can only support around 550 HP tops. You going to run duel 255's? Maybe get a JMF fuel cell and run something like a A1000? Then you have to look into your injectors. You list having 950cc injectors. You will be maxing them out at 700ish HP. I would look into getting a set of 1200cc injectors at the minimum. Or go with staged injecton and run your stock 450's as your secondary injectors. Then with staged injection you have more cost with having 2 fuel rails. 2 Fuel blocks one for feed and one for return from 2 fuel rails. Actually you could just use the AFPR for both rails returns but line routing might get a little tricky.

I mention this cause a lot of people don't think about their fuel supply system. The stock fuel lines are to small to supply enough fuel at 700HP. The head pressures needed would really destroy whatever fuel pump(s) in a very short time.

Also what is your Red line that you are thinking about? That could have a large impact on turbo selection. On the street you would want more than 2000RPM of powerband. Seeing Bigladys spool sheets on the HX52 I can tell you that the turbo is going to hit fast and very very hard. I'm willing to bet it will spin the tires in 3rd if you don't have enough traction. You will see about 450HP power increase in about a 750 RPM window that will close very very fast. Hell at around 400HP my HX35 would go from 10-35PSI in about 400ish RPMs. I never could really get a good log of it cause it was just to fast. It would spin my new Dunlop FM901's in 2nd on brand new aspault.

And as mentioned I would stay away for a DBB turbo do to not being able to rebuild them. If you wanted to go Garrett I would go with one of the journal bearing GT42's with a 1.01 AR housing or maybe one size down.