2G Need advice on turbo selection for 2.3L

[jshuman]

Yeah I have put some thought into the fuel setup. It will be entirely redone as well... minus the afpr. I will be selling the 950s, and I am going to get the 1600s and call it a day. I think I will end up running one 255 in tank, and one inline. From what I understand that should support my goals. If not, I will get a twin hanger and go dual intank. Oh, and braided lines all the way... probably the kit from STM.

I just found a BNIB hx52 for sale off of a volvo. The ad gives this description: volvo 4049480 holset hx 52 3599996.

Could one of you hx experts tell me anything on that. If that is the same hx52 we have been talking about, I am going to buy it.

 

[dsm-onster]

If it's off of a volvo semi, then it should be the one. It may likely have a billet compressor wheel

 

[jshuman]

It says diesel so hopefully that is it. Its under $900 shipped.
Would hot side would that have?

 

[dsm-onster]

hx5* series 17cm^2 . . . fairly large, but in scale with this turbo.

 

[jshuman]

Sorry to ask so many questions, but would I need to also order the t4 ts housing?

 

[twicks69]

Jshuman, the hx50-55 turbos have been putting over 700whp down for a few years now. There's a 707whp hx50powered AWD saab in europe. He ran out of injector on the dyno, hense his lower number . Still managed 9seconds and 141mph at 2900lbs. That's my suggestion. Budget to the max. The hx52 is a 90lb/min turbo. And one on tuners has already shown that, on a *2.0L*, it spools to 10psi by 4800rpms with the stock divided housing and divided runner manifold. You'll want a twinscroll setup for any turbo you choose here.

I suggest more than the 4088r. I think Tim did a FANTASTIC job with his 4088r setup. But he's even looking at a bigger BW setup now. You need 42r size and flow.

The GT4088R is an excellent turbo that is fast spooling and extremely efficient over a wide range of boost levels. It was especially good in the 20-42psi range and did produce 766AWHP on my car at 42psi. I do think I could have eeked out 825AWHP if it didn't hand grenade, at boost levels around 50psi, but the turbo really isn't designed to be pushed that high and at those shaft speeds. I would say that 700AWHP/600TQ can be done much easier on this turbo with a well tuned setup at 37-38psi on Q16 or VP Import fuel.

I was intending on purchasing another one of these turbos if I could get it at a fair price, but I couldn't find one for $1100 range, so....I purchased a new turbo.

The new turbo I am going to try is the Borg Warner S400sx 74mm T4 1.1A/R divided flange (AKA Borg S475, AKA Bullseye S374). It currently has the standard series-60 GT42-style compressor cover on it with the 5" inlet and the 4.2" V-Band outlet. I am going to be purchasing the Bullseye Power RACE 10" compressor cover with the 5" inlet and 3" hose outlet. The Bullseye RACE cover is available with the V-band flange or the hose outlet, and is shown to flow more than the standard-60 GT42-style cover. Cost??? Well, I purchased the turbo brand new from AGP Turbo for $775.00. Forced Performance also shows a price of $775 for this turbo. The Bullseye compressor cover goes for ~$300.00 more.

Turbo Specs:
Compressor wheel - 74.68mm/100.07mm 100lbs/min
Turbine wheel - 83mm/74mm
Compressor inlet - 5" hose
Compressor outlet - 4.21 v band
Turbine Inlet - Divided T4 1.10 A/R
Turbine Outlet - 4" v band




So, with a $1000-1100 investment, I should be able to get near my new HP goals. I am shooting for 915AWHP at 40psi on Q16 fuel. The 1.1A/R turbine housing shouldn't be a restriction on my new motor which is staying 7-bolt 2.3L (Groden/Ross/Stock crank). It should be capable of hitting 45psi around 5800rpms (based on my calculations and my V/E from previous experiences) and producing around 680AWHP at this given rpm, and should carry to 8500rpms without problems, while reaching myt HP goals.

I am taking a chance with it, but it is a very fair price for this size of turbo and horsepower goal.

If you are concerned with fast spoolup, either run a GT4202R with a 1.01 T4 divided flange, or run a shot of nitrous, or use AEM EMS and retard your spoolup ignition timing to ramp it up sooner.

If you are only looking for 700whp, I would consider the GT4088R, GT4094R, GT4294R or the GT4202R for a street car.

 

[jshuman]

Yeah I dont think I am ready to near in on that 1000whp mark . But that is insanely cheap for a turbo that performs that well and makes that much power.

So would you not reccommed me getting the hx52?

 

[twicks69]

Yeah I dont think I am ready to near in on that 1000whp mark . But that is insanely cheap for a turbo that performs that well and makes that much power.

So would you not reccommed me getting the hx52?

That is your choice. I have no experience with that turbo.

 

[BGGSTin]

GT3582R HTA. Great spool (20psi at 4200rpms on a stroker) and excellent super fast respool on shifts.

You can make a good 650 pretty easily.

PS. I have an S366 if you're interested.

 

[jshuman]

I see. I am just thinking that if the hx52 will outflow the 4088, and can be rebuilt, and is about $500 cheaper, then maybe I should got the holset route.

 

[twicks69]

I see. I am just thinking that if the hx52 will outflow the 4088, and can be rebuilt, and is about $500 cheaper, then maybe I should got the holset route.

You need to be specific as to what Garrett turbo you mean -- there is the GT4082, the GT4088 journal bearing, and the GT4088R ball bearing. I had the GT4088R ball-bearing.

The spoolup characteristics of the GT4088 vs. the GT4088R are substantial, along with its transient boost resonse. I would recommend the GT4088R if you do go ball bearing on a Garrett turbo of this size.

 

[Maglin]

I personally wouldn't steer anyone away from a Holset. You just have to realize they spool up very fast once they reach 8-10PSI. They can handle a lot of abuse ie.. compressor stall and surge, and still kept on ticking. The only bad thing I've read about the HX52 that was negitive was a 5.7 cummins 12 valve running 60 PSI ended up sheering the turbine shaft after just over a month of abuse. No telling how much power it was putting out as most dyno's max out at 1200 and it pegged the dyno. But that is also exceeding the max turbine speed by a good deal at that pressure level.

I'm personally putting a HX52 on my talon. Have had the turbo for about 3 years now. It still has the assembly oil in it. It's very heavy 44 lbs so you want to brace the turbo so as to not crack your manifold from the heat and weight. I havn't decided which route I'm going fuel wise. I only have 1000cc injectors and I couldn't get a half way decent idle under 1K RPMs and ended up with a 1200RPM idle. I would hate to see what kind of idle I would have with 1600cc injectors and is why I'm looking to run staged injection. I'm also toying with maybe getting another set of 1000cc injectors and run methanol through the secondary injectors. I would probably have them turn on around the 12 PSI mark. On the MSII you can have a secondary fuel table for the staged injector which makes running different fuels a lot easier. Then I wouldn't have to worry about my intake being a solid block of ice just DDing the vehicle.

You are going to want to run 32+ PSI with the turbo. Really anything under it will see a lot of surge in a DD car. Also I don't know what BOV you have but you will want a fing hugh one. I'm going to get a Tial BOV, but the salt flat car with the HX52 has a HKS Godzilla BOV on it.

What are you planning on using for EMS?

 

[Slippi84]

You are wanting to make 700hp and you're worried about COST?

[/thread]

This guy is retarded.

Why you haven't been banned yet is beyond me but you must be a HTA and DV?DT FAB spokesman because every time I turn around your like no GT35RHTA is the best turbo EVER and whenever people don't agree you call them names.

A GT35r is not the end all be all turbo. BW/HOLSET turbo's spooled FASTER not slower than their garret counter parts, so all of a sudden you see this surge in HTA tech which spools similar to BW and holset turbos but cost exponentially more. By the way my hx52 has the same exact wheel as the t4zHTA billet and all. Oh yeah and the phrase your looking for is transient repsone not respoolability.

To the OP Twick is a beast at tuning and made 760+whp with it so it is doable but I would go bigger but that's just me because I am not a tuning beast even though Nate from TPG will be tuning mine when I'm done.

 

[jshuman]

Thanks for all the responses guys. I will try to answer all the questions frome the previous posts here.

It is a gt4088r and he said its a .85a/r

The engine management will be ecmlink v3 for now.-I have no problems tuning with it. Then once I feel like I have done enough reading on aem ems I will get that.- I just want to have a decent understanding of it before I get it and start learning to use it.

For the fic 1600s, I know there are a ton of guys on the dsmlink forums running them with no problem.

I have the old tial bov now. I will be upgrading to their new one.
I will be reusing my intercooler and piping.- well most of the piping.
I will also be reusing my jmfab race smim of course.

I will most likely sell my tre stage II tranny and upgrade.


Thanks for all the responses so far. It helps to have questions raised that I may not have thought of.

 

[Maglin]

If ECMLink is a more sophicated airflow intercepter/manilipater like the AFC is then I would go AEM now. If you do have control over timing and fuel then you should be ok. Cause you are really going to be running around 15-18* of advance at those power levels, maybe a tad more if it's tuned to the edge. Many people don't realize that once you get below .8ms of ipw that you really have almost no control over the amount of fuel being injected which is mainly at idle. And I could idle at 750 RPMs if I wanted to with the 1000's but I didn't like the CRAZY AFR swings cause .1ms of ipw change was very drastic to fuel delivery. If it was very lean at that very second and I stomped on it their would be a very small flat spot at tip in.

Since you are going to have to tune it I would get the EMS now and do it all at once. Safest route to go. Not to mention it will be loads easier to tune only once.

 

[Slippi84]

If ECMLink is a more sophicated airflow intercepter/manilipater like the AFC is then I would go AEM now. If you do have control over timing and fuel then you should be ok. Cause you are really going to be running around 15-18* of advance at those power levels, maybe a tad more if it's tuned to the edge. Many people don't realize that once you get below .8ms of ipw that you really have almost no control over the amount of fuel being injected which is mainly at idle. And I could idle at 750 RPMs if I wanted to with the 1000's but I didn't like the CRAZY AFR swings cause .1ms of ipw change was very drastic to fuel delivery. If it was very lean at that very second and I stomped on it their would be a very small flat spot at tip in.

Since you are going to have to tune it I would get the EMS now and do it all at once. Safest route to go. Not to mention it will be loads easier to tune only once.

Ecmlink is what they call dsmlink V3

 

[NewTurboTuner]

I bought the GT4088R in mind for 500awhp on pump gas, and 700awhp Race gas.
I choose the twin scroll .85 A/R hotside for a 2L, in thinking that I'd get decent spool-up, and still have enough exhaust flow to reach 700awhp.

Sounds pretty reasonable huh?

 

[Maglin]

Ecmlink is what they call dsmlink V3

TY. I've been away for sometime. I didn't even know they finally came out with V3. Did they add the GM MAF code this time? I wish the originator of that got his credit but :shrug: . Oh then you should be ok with your ECMLink. I still personally hate how they use sliders. I hope they got away from that it made me sick the first time I tuned someone's DSM with Link. I wanted to choke the guy who wrote the program. You need access to every cell to get good cruise through WOT.

You will be running the GT40 pretty hard to get to 700HP at the wheels. But it's doable. I think you might have went a little small on the TH but that can be opiniated. I don't like early spool up. But You will have a good balance. I personally don't think you'll hit 700HP on race fuel even but I would love to be proven wrong.

 

[jshuman]

I hate decisions. I change my mind every 10 minutes. I think the more I read, the worse it gets.

Oh and v3 does have cell tables now.

 

[Slippi84]

I hate decisions.

Oh and v3 does have cell tables now.

No trust me you don't. Decisions aka choices means competition which meanings price wars on who can go lower while still making money which is better for you and me

 

[NewTurboTuner]

You will be running the GT40 pretty hard to get to 700HP at the wheels. But it's doable. I think you might have went a little small on the TH but that can be opiniated. I don't like early spool up. But You will have a good balance. I personally don't think you'll hit 700HP on race fuel even but I would love to be proven wrong.

Go ahead and consider yourself wrong now. Theres no need for you to wait.
Acknowledge your wrongness, and LOVE IT!

 

[jshuman]

Hahaha deep down everyone hates lag.

Honestly, I am still tempted to get to 4088r. But I can also pick up the hx52 and get a shearer with extra cash.

 

[Slippi84]

Hahaha deep down everyone hates lag.

Honestly, I am still tempted to get to 4088r. But I can also pick up the hx52 and get a shearer with extra cash.

I don't push my turbo choice like others but that is music to my ears .

I don't brag about this alot but just to give you a idea I spent less on my tubro and manifold than a gt4088r probably even with this discount.

 

[jshuman]

Well I would not have even considered the 4088 before because there are bigger turbos with comparable spool for much cheaper, but newturbotuner is selling it for a great price. But on the other hand... I've always wanted a shearer

 

[Wicked95AWD]

If you are willing to push the turbo to the limit to reach your power goal then the Garrett BB 4088R ($1,804), HTA3582R($1,699), BW S300 83-75 ($1,009), or a rebuilt Holset HX40 pro ($300-$700) are all great options. There is really no reason to bash any of them. It's similar to arguing Macintosh vs PC or Snap-on vs MAC tools. They are all great products, but each has it's own set of advantages (for instance, Journal bearing turbos are rebuildable, whereas BB CHRA's are not and BB turbos offer better transient response but that will most likely be negated if you use NLTS) and what you wind up buying will eventually boil down to how well the product suits your application and goals and how much money you are willing to spend. My personal power goal and engine choice is very similar to yours (700whp on a 2.4 liter awd street car) and I had to think about my options for a long time before I made my final turbo decision. The turbo's listed above should all get you very close to 700hp and spool great (for example Badman21's car) , resulting in a very fun to drive street car capable of sub 10 second quarter mile times with little or no weight reduction. Some of the turbos above might even exceed 700whp with the perfect combination of parts and tuning (Twicks car for example). If meeting or exceeding that nice round number (700whp) is really that important to you, then you might want to consider larger flavors of all the turbo's above.. a.k.a. the Garret BB 4094R($2,100), 4294R($2,535), BB HTA3586R ($1,749), BW S371 ($775) or S300 88-75($1,009), or last but not least the Holset HX52 or HX55 ($300-$900). You should be able to get to 700whp much easier with the latter options, but you may sacrifice quite a bit of spool as well as your car's "fun to drive" characteristics in the process. BTW.. a twinscroll hotside and manifold should increase VE, spoolup, and part throttle response if applied to any of the above turbo's.