Guys with L19s and composite head gaskets

[red1993gsallmt]

I used to run an oringed head with a mitsu mls, worked great for years but finally failed due to heat and abuse. I had to mill the head and since I am building a 2g head I really don't want to spend the money on removing the orings and welding the groves shut, valve job etc. So for now Im just leaving the rings in it and milling them flat and want to try a composite with the l19s. Guys that are running 30psi plus what composite gasket are you using? Copper spray? What tourqe specs?

 

[bastarddsm]

Felpro composite and standard arps no copper spray or any sealer. 35psi everyday allday

 

[99gst_racer]

I run Mitsu and Felpro composite HG's. I've had great success on both. And I don't use cooper spray on the HG because it makes for more cleanup when swapping gaskets.

Torque specs are the same for any HG. Specs using moly lube:
7-bolt (11mm) ARP L19 or A1 H11: 95-100 ft/lbs
6-bolt (12mm) ARP L19 or A1 H11: 100-105 ft/lbs

 

[red1993gsallmt]

Felpro composite and standard arps no copper spray or any sealer. 35psi everyday allday

Any reason you chose felpro over oem? Thanks for the post. Also 99 how far have you pushed composites without orings?

 

[bastarddsm]

They are $30 at oreillys. I put one out a few years ago when I got a little wild with the tune.

 

[donniekak]

If your block is ringed use steel wire and the composite. The l19s get enough clamping force to make the rings press into the head.

 

[Imback]

Another felpro user with the studs torqued down to 105

 

[1fastlaser]

All you had to do it ask me! I ran the composite on My 42 when it was a 5spd car. Standard Arps and a felpro and it last well past 30psi. Its just the cylinder pressure that takes them out, or if it was not installed right but I know it will be.

Why not O ring that head, and run a factory mls? I got a guy that can do it.

 

[red1993gsallmt]

All you had to do it ask me! I ran the composite on My 42 when it was a 5spd car. Standard Arps and a felpro and it last well past 30psi. Its just the cylinder pressure that takes them out, or if it was not installed right but I know it will be.

Why not O ring that head, and run a factory mls? I got a guy that can do it.

I had the same setup as you and the same guy , building a 2g head thats going to our cubin friend for porting, and puting our oring setup on that one. I just dont want to spend the loot on this head to pull the orings out that are in it now, weld it, re oring it and do a new valve job( due to the heat warping the head from welding). If my cousin didnt treat it like his bbc malibu and do 8-9 1-4th gear pulls in a row I wouldnt be posting this . got up to about 215* wich wasnt cool. Its at M2 now being cut

 

[turboglenn]

I'm running the Fel-Pro composite with L19's

I'm not discrediting Paal's info but the .pdf manual i have from ARP on the L19 torque spec shows only 85 for the 7 bolt 11mm stud and 100 for the 6 bolt 12mm studs, but either way people choose what they want most times regaurdless to band-aid other issues,

I run mine on my 6 bolt at 95 lb/ft (making 5lbs room for error on my not so great torque wrench )

I've been back in the 30psi realm on the same head and block surfaces that were in use when i stretched the regular ARP 2000's and blew two HG's in a months time from lifting the head and causing coolant leaks (compression was 180psi on both blown gaskets, but when the engine bay is covered in coolant and there's no leaks when you stop it's a sure sign )

After getting the L19's i haven't re-torqued them and i hear it's not needed but haven't seen anything other than the ARP catalogue saying it's not "needed" but they dono't say not to either

I was hsitant getting back up on 30psi after lifting the head so fast between changes and it being as hard as it is on me to change them with my physical condition fading away maing my back and shit hurt

but I have to say, even with some random detonation she's been holding up well to some solid abuse, i'm not gonna own a car i can't beat on now and then each day

Also, I DO NOT use copper or anything else on my composites, ahven't seen evidence enough to convince me the extra cleanup is worth it when it does go out.

Also, why not keep the o-rings and run them with composite gasket? It should be set where they crush in on the metal fire ring around the cylinder and the composites can work with that , if i recall 99gst_racer (Paul) runs a composite with o-ringed head or block

 

[1fastlaser]

My head I have a local guy to me setup my machine work and I ring my head. My head from 3 years ago I did. Damn he got all ricer on you with the little 4 banger.

You could easily run the I ring with a composite, or do non o ring with a composite. I ran non o ring with a composite for a while, and have a buddy with a hx40 35psi, pump and meth 21 degrees of timing on a felpro standard arps and a non o ringed head.

 

[99gst_racer]

got up to about 215* wich wasnt cool.

Man, 215* is nothing. Definitely not enough to cause damage by itself. I wouldn't start worrying until 230*+.

I'm not discrediting Paul's info but the .pdf manual i have from ARP on the L19 torque spec shows only 85 for the 7 bolt 11mm stud and 100 for the 6 bolt 12mm studs, but either way people choose what they want most times regaurdless to band-aid other issues

I've come to learn that ARP's recommended specs are generally always conservative. Not that that's a bad thing. But there's generally always room for about 10-15% more torque without coming close to yielding.

Also, why not keep the o-rings and run them with composite gasket? It should be set where they crush in on the metal fire ring around the cylinder and the composites can work with that , if i recall 99gst_racer (Paul) runs a composite with o-ringed head or block

Yup, o-ring'd block. I love it too. It's done well for two summers in the 37-47PSI range.

 

[daren_p]

If I got this straight, why do you want to remove the orings now? I'd say, L19's, composite & keep the orings for high boost.

L19's (think torqued to 95 IIRC, according to what ARP told me), stock composite & o-ringed block. I've ran up to 35-36psi & no issues so far.

I would imagine your ring protrusion will be less then people typically run with composite (since I believe you had it on a MLS setup) but shouldn't hurt to keep the rings.

 

[turboglenn]

Yea Paul, they are conservative for sure, and they';ve even told me that.. I had to call to get the L19 spec and they still just sent me a link to a download instead of telling me on the phone when i got them

As for the o-ring, so yours are in the block? I've really wanted to copy the setup you're using for head sealing after seeing what yours has taken on a composite gasket with o-rings, I haven't o-ringed and engine sinc emy old 5-lityer mustang days.. back then we put them in the heads most times (or the shops did)

is there a difference where you place them in regaurds to how they hold up on the 4g or in general????

 

[jrohner]

I had no head gasket problems on the cheapo felpro and stock head bolts on the stock 6-bolt even when my water temp broke 250 at the track!

 

[jmartinez1228]

Just curious. Is a o-ringed block necessary if you are running a composite hg/l19 setup? Just wondering because I was going to switch my setup to that but never got my block oringed the last time it was being built. So I was hoping to be able to get away with that setup.
Looking to push 40lbs of boost.

 

[99gst_racer]

is there a difference where you place them in regaurds to how they hold up on the 4g or in general????

I prefer them on the block. Mostly because they won't crush into the block like they will the head. And the head is more prone to need to be resurfaced down the road than the block. My o-rings were installed in '07 and I've never had to replace them.

But truthfully, they'll function up top or underneath the gasket, as long as they are centered in the firing ring of the gasket.

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[turboglenn]

thanks Paul, i figiured it was more for sake of having to redo them i fthe head needed a planing, as for back in my 5.0 days, those were iron heads so they didn't sink in

jmartinez......I would say you don't "need" them for up to 37-40'ish psi on L19's, but i think that will be pushing the limits of the composite based on your tuning ability, be conservative, keep peak cylinder pressure lower (don't go for all out power right from the mid-range, let the engine wind and bring it oin more with RPM) but also, keep the timing to where cylinder pressures are occuring just a few degrees late to ensure the gasket lives. I've made the most recent 522hp WHEN I broke the trans on felpro and l19's but i was only at 31'ish psi (MAP only reads to 31.5 and i was floating in cell and slightly above according to the logs)

 

[H@xtGSX]

I stuck L19's in a few days ago... They were cheaper and I knew they were close to the same tensile strength as ARP's, but I didn't think they were more resistant to stretching. Are they?

As for the gasket, I am also a Felpro composite fan. They take a hell of a lot of abuse, compensate for slight deck problems, and are cheap and easy to use. I'm not pushing 30+psi, but I hit 24-25psi and have yet to have one of them blow. MLS gaskets are a pain in the ass, in my opinion.

 

[99gst_racer]

I stuck L19's in a few days ago... They were cheaper and I knew they were close to the same tensile strength as ARP's, but I didn't think they were more resistant to stretching. Are they?

L19's are made by ARP. L19 is just their code/term for the tool steel material. And 8740 chromoly is what the standard ones are made of. The L19 material offers significantly higher tensile and yield strengths, which provides greater cylinder head clamping.

 

[jmartinez1228]

thanks Paul, i figiured it was more for sake of having to redo them i fthe head needed a planing, as for back in my 5.0 days, those were iron heads so they didn't sink in

jmartinez......I would say you don't "need" them for up to 37-40'ish psi on L19's, but i think that will be pushing the limits of the composite based on your tuning ability, be conservative, keep peak cylinder pressure lower (don't go for all out power right from the mid-range, let the engine wind and bring it oin more with RPM) but also, keep the timing to where cylinder pressures are occuring just a few degrees late to ensure the gasket lives. I've made the most recent 522hp WHEN I broke the trans on felpro and l19's but i was only at 31'ish psi (MAP only reads to 31.5 and i was floating in cell and slightly above according to the logs)

Thanks for the info.

 

[FonZ454]

I've had good luck with L19's and an OE composite gasket. This last time I put a pretty fresh head on. Block's never been cut. I wanna say I'm in the 110-115ft/lb range on the studs. Hold 135mph at 33-34lbs on a weak motor.

I know one day I'll have to step up gasket wise, I'm just putting it off as much as I can .

 

[sidewaystsi]

30psi with mitsu composite and these studs, no copper spray.Beat the car and checked a week after install for stretch and there was non.Seems to be a great combo. However it strikes my interest about the different torque specs mentioned. When i called ARP's customer service about the torque spec they told me 130ft lbs with their moly lube in a 6bolt.

 

[turboglenn]

I stuck L19's in a few days ago... They were cheaper and I knew they were close to the same tensile strength as ARP's, but I didn't think they were more resistant to stretching. Are they?

As for the gasket, I am also a Felpro composite fan. They take a hell of a lot of abuse, compensate for slight deck problems, and are cheap and easy to use. I'm not pushing 30+psi, but I hit 24-25psi and have yet to have one of them blow. MLS gaskets are a pain in the ass, in my opinion.

cheaper compared to what??? IMO L19's and H11's are both outrageous for a set of bolts, but i guess it's paying not for a name but for the ability to hold the head down It sounds more like you have the ARP 2000's by the way you describe them and talk about price...can you elaboratre a little???

My ARP2ks' lasted a little while but i'm a little dissapointed in the life i got out of them before having three of them soften up to the yield strength of of an aluminum bolt and all but 2 of them being at least .005-.007 variance from the shortest ones in the batch, I had over .022" stretch on one of them and the "three" that i talk about were all over .018"

Looking back i'm dissapointed in the life of my ARP 2k's compared to the life i've seen come out of them on V8 engines in dedicated trailered bracket cars that came apart 8-10 times a aseason for inspection and service... there was a total of 5 installs on mine before they were stretched and everytime i used ARP moly lube and only ever went 5lbs over torque spec ONCE when i re-torqued them on the FIRST install..., wqhen replaCED WITH l19'S i had the largest variance of .022" between my shortest and longest ARP 2k that i removed, all of them varied by about .005-.007" from the hsortest one in the bunchand that's just rediculouse compared to what i've seen not only other ARP head studs take for re-use cycles but what i've seen OEM 6 bolt allen head "head bolts" be used at least that many times and never have an issue asde from when some one tried using thestandard size allen socket that was "close enough" and rounded thehead bot out

anyway, i wrote aton more but the thumb and the synaptics touch pad on this notewbook hate me and conspire to kill all my great works , anyway, just wanted to say i am still angry with the service life of my ARP 2k's and think the price of L19'a, H11's ETC is a Rip off, there's not a bolt out there that should be 27 bucks a piece, and at least not be replaced witrh a "no questions asked " policy fr the life of the bolt as long as there's no rust on it (since you aren't supposed to touch them with bare skin even)

Teh grand national that i'm building is coming ion today at 7PM via tow truck WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEee

it's a build that's previousely ran 10.90's and 11.20's in street trim on drag radials, and i'm supposed to build it up further. the trans and engine are already pore-built and assembled by a reputable guy that has the worlds fastest iron headed GN (jon plog), I'm gonna otss them in, wire up the F.A.S.T. 2.0 EFI system and tune it and then add whatever other parts there are as well as fabbing up the FMIC and piping and the exhaust system f=with dual gates from scratch (that and the tuning is what i'm looking forward too )

as hard as i'm supposedly going to be pushing this car (which is gonna beleft in my possesion all the rest of the year to be driven and shwn off, this is the owners statement, i'm to go race it and show it so it's known ) no arguement here. But anyway, if i see regular ARP's in the reciepts for the engine build i'm gonna insist on L19's or something jkust so theheads don't have to come off after the engine is installed

welkl i'm ramblin and need sleep later everyone

i'll put pics of the GN up tonigh

Glenn

 

[99gst_racer]

However it strikes my interest about the different torque specs mentioned. When i called ARP's customer service about the torque spec they told me 130ft lbs with their moly lube in a 6bolt.

That sounds about like the torque spec using motor oil as a lube. Either way, I'm 100% sure 130ft/lbs is way too much torque for an 11mm or 12mm stud using moly lube. I'd question if the head casting can even handle that.

When we did 1/2" head studs torqued to 120 ft/lbs, my ass was puckered on the last round of torquing. I don't think I'd ever go any higher than that no matter the diameter or material.